Do Muslims Rely More on Sahih Bukhari Ahadith than the Qur'an???

**all4salam** · 02-22-2011

Total number of traditions in 9 volumns of Bukhari are 7,000 plus. The number of hadiths collected and attributed to Prophet Muhammed (S) is in the hundreds of
thousands, approximately 700,000. And 99% of all these hundreds of thousands of hadiths are pure lies and fabrications which were rejected by the early Muslim scholars who thought they could figure out which hadith was authentic and which wasn't. Let us look at some of the other hadith collectors and what they collected.

(1) Malik bin Anas collected about 500 hadiths in his famous book, "Al-Muwattaa."

(2) Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, collected about 40,000 hadiths in his famous "Musnad". He chose these 40,000 hadiths from among 700,000 hadiths. In other words he thought 660,000 ahadith were un-proven lies and/or fabrications. That is, 94% lies and fabrications.

(3) Bukhari collected more than 600,000 hadiths and accepted 7,275 hadiths and considered 592,725 hadiths to be un-proven hadiths, lies and/or fabrications, that is almost 99% of what he collected.

(4)Muslem collected 300,000 hadiths and accepted only 4,000. He rejected about 296,000 which is almost 99% of his collected hadiths.

This should give an idea of how much corruption entered or tried to enter Islam from the back door.

Now we should understand why God promised to preserve, protect and safeguard His Book which is the ONLY authentic Hadith, the ONLY acceptable Hadith, the BEST HADITH - the Noble Quran. NO such guarantee was offered to the fabrications and lies of the fabricators and liars who claimed to 'improve' on the Book of Allah by 'explaining' it and called the Quran incomplete and undetailed and claimed that the Quran needs clarification by another book.

The Jews, more than a hundred year after Prophet Moses' death created Mishnah (hadith or narrations) and Gemarrah (sunna or actions). The Jews upheld these and the invented laws within them rather than the TORAH, the revealed Word of God Almighty.

Three hundred years after the passing away of Jesus, son of Virgin Mary, the Christians created the concept of trinity which is now the primary source of Christian belief in defiance of the original Bible which commanded the absolute worship of God Alone.

The Muslims, 150 to 200 years after the death of Prophet Muhammed (S), CREATED another source of their religion alongside the Noble Quran, the "Hadith & Sunnah" falsely attributed to the Prophet Muhammed in defiance of the Quran. Today most Muslims have discarded the Quran in favor of the Hadith & Sunnah.

When I first entered Islam it was by the grace of Allah and his words in the Holy Qur'an. I heard of the most elegant hadiths and found them to be very inspirational and motivating. Later on I found out other hadiths attributed to the Prophet (S), that were out of the character of Prophet Muhammed (S), and Islam. The sad thing is most Muslims would consider you kuffar for doubting or questioning Ahadith. You can go to just about any Masajid and the khutbahs will be from Ahadith and not the Qur'an. How can we say that Islam is religion of peace, and at the same time kill the apostates? I think Ahadith corrupt what Islam means...

My question is why do we blindly follow man-made hadiths over the word of the Lord of the Worlds?

**Tyrion** · 02-22-2011

No Muslim believes the Ahadith are on a higher level then the Quran, and most would agree that there are some fabrications in there. However, it's absolutely ridiculous to deny them as a whole, because for the most part, the people that preserved Ahadith were the same people who preserved the Quran. If you start to imply that they couldn't be trusted, then you begin to enter very dangerous grounds.

**Ghazalah** · 02-22-2011

I read the first paragraph and didn't carry on. You're basically saying Bukhari's editions are fabrications and lies?! =/ And that we should only see the Quran as something authentic? So explain to me why in Shariah they turn to the Hadith and Sunnah when something is ambiguous in the Quran? How did we learn to pray? It's doesn't tell us specifically in the Quran how to do that, or do whudhu, we turn to hadiths and sunnah found in these books (Bukhari and Muslim) which you claim to be fabrications and lies.

On the basis of logical your argument is flawed mate.

**Ibn Abi Ahmed** · 02-22-2011

Originally Posted by all4salam

The Muslims, 150 to 200 years after the death of Prophet Muhammed (S), CREATED another source of their religion alongside the Noble Quran, the "Hadith & Sunnah" falsely attributed to the Prophet Muhammed in defiance of the Quran. Today most Muslims have discarded the Quran in favor of the Hadith & Sunnah.

When I first entered Islam it was by the grace of Allah and his words in the Holy Qur'an. I heard of the most elegant hadiths and found them to be very inspirational and motivating. Later on I found out other hadiths attributed to the Prophet (S), that were out of the character of Prophet Muhammed (S), and Islam. The sad thing is most Muslims would consider you kuffar for doubting or questioning Ahadith. You can go to just about any Masajid and the khutbahs will be from Ahadith and not the Qur'an. How can we say that Islam is religion of peace, and at the same time kill the apostates? I think Ahadith corrupt what Islam means...

My question is why do we blindly follow man-made hadiths over the word of the Lord of the Worlds?

I just have one simple question for you, if you can provide the answer for to it, then I'll take your argument as valid, otherwise know that you are mislead and are misleading people and that you are bringing forth an agenda that will never be accepted by the Muslims (even the least educated of them) because the religion is protected from false paradigms through a science known as Usul al-Fiqh.

In the Qur'an, Allaah quotes the Prophet (saw) as saying:

وإذ أسر النبي إلى بعض أزواجه حديثا فلما نبأت به وأظهره الله عليه عرف بعضه وأعرض عن بعض فلما نبأها به قالت من أنبأك هذا قال نبأني العليم الخبير

All I want you to do is provide me the verse in the Qur'an where the Prophet (saw) was informed about the situation the above verse is talking about.

The result is going to be one of two:

1) You will provide me the verse

2) You will not provide me the verse

If you provide me the verse, I will agree with you.

If you do not, then you will have admitted that the Prophet (saw) received a revelation other than the Qur'an thus forfeiting your position that there is no Divine source for the Sunnah and Hadeeth.

قل هاتوا برهانكم إن كنتم صادقين

**M.I.A.** · 02-22-2011

i think as with the quran the hadith are there to bring you closer to god,
i think as long as you can understand the basis of the hadith and how it affects your life then its a good thing.
i cant say i trust any moreso than the quran, i try and follow many sunnah but if they are of benifit or hinderance to me or the people around me only allah swt knows.

its like trading gold for silver, what it is representative of and what actually happens are different things and i can know of one but not the other.. (i know why i did it but not what i did with it) the last thing i want is to misrepresent something and i think sometimes trying too hard to follow only leads to questioning.

everybody will have to answer for themselves.

**Salahudeen** · 02-22-2011

May Allah guide us all ameen, the qur'an tells us to follow the example of the holy prophet (saw) what would be the point in it telling us to follow his example if it wasn't preserved. This would be an error if we followed what you're saying because the qur'an would be telling us to follow something that no longer exists.

**all4salam** · 02-22-2011

Originally Posted by Ghazalah

I read the first paragraph and didn't carry on. You're basically saying Bukhari's editions are fabrications and lies?! =/ And that we should only see the Quran as something authentic? So explain to me why in Shariah they turn to the Hadith and Sunnah when something is ambiguous in the Quran? How did we learn to pray? It's doesn't tell us specifically in the Quran how to do that, or do whudhu, we turn to hadiths and sunnah found in these books (Bukhari and Muslim) which you claim to be fabrications and lies.

On the basis of logical your argument is flawed mate.

The importance of Hadith is commonly emphasised by claiming that the Quran does not teach salaah even though it orders us to do so. But here's what's overlooked. Allah Almighty has stated in His Final Message that the dictates given in the Quran and sent through our Prophet Muhammad (SAAW) are the continuation of previous Divine Messages from the time of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) onward which the people did not bother to follow nor to preserve. Commandments of salaah (prayer), zakkah (charity) fasting and pilgrimage (Hajj) were Divine commandments given to people through former messengers since ancient times. Prophet Muhammad's mission and deliverence of the Quran was the final & complete repetition/confirmation of the Divine Message. Hence, it would be correct to state that while Prophets Moses, Jesus and Muhamamd (peace on them all) delivered the Taurah, Bible and Quran respectively, all important and basic religious dictates i.e. salaah, charity and fasting came from the time of Prophet Abraham (peace on him), generation after generation.

sabr* · 02-22-2011

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

It is apparent that the Anonymous Poster (Kidcanman),Cohorts and those that support that unIslamic view have begin a thread regarding challenging the validity of the Sunnah via Sahih ahadith. Those who claim to possess the basic fundamentals of Islam should assess if these threads are generated by new Muslims or non Muslims seeking legitimate answers verses those whose mission is apparent to continue fitna and mislead the uneducated reader.

Just ignore these threads after an educated response is posted. Insha Allah

These people never present Quran ayat to support their view. They attempt to pursuade with arguements minus evidence and attempt to attack the evidence you provide.

When you ask them how they perform Salah, How do you perform Wudu, Hajj, Inheritence laws, etc. they always sidestep your question with contineous questions verses evidence. They attempt to state they support and follow the Sunnah but can't follow it without finding it in Sahih hadiths. A Parodox.

I would hope the practicing educated Muslims don't have time to engage in worthless deadend exhausted threads.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 88, Number 173:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force whereupon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"

**Ghazalah** · 02-22-2011

Originally Posted by all4salam

in His Final Message that the dictates given in the Quran and sent through our Prophet Muhammad (SAAW) are the continuation of previous Divine Messages from the time of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) onward which the people did not bother to follow nor to preserve.

Exactly. So because in the time prior to the Prophet PBUH the people didn't bother to follow nor preserve anything. How do we know what's right and what's been corrupted? On the other hand, the hadiths in the books which you claim to be 'man made' have been preserved for us.

Answer my question regarding Shariah. Or do you not follow the rules in Shariah which are based on Hadith from books such as Bukhari and Muslim?

**all4salam** · 02-22-2011

Originally Posted by Ghazalah

Answer my question regarding Shariah. Or do you not follow the rules in Shariah which are based on Hadith from books such as Bukhari and Muslim?

Well I live in Americawhere Shariah law isn't present..... Again, in certain Islamic countries where there is Shariah most of the injunctions are based soley on ahadith, such as the penalty for adultery.

**Ghazalah** · 02-22-2011

Originally Posted by all4salam

Well I live in Americawhere Shariah law isn't present..... Again, in certain Islamic countries where there is Shariah most of the injunctions are based soley on ahadith, such as the penalty for adultery

So now you're questioning Shariah rulings?

**all4salam** · 02-22-2011

Originally Posted by sabr*

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 88, Number 173:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force whereupon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"

Hadiths like these contradict the Qur'an. Be careful what you attribute to the Prophet (S).

Say: I am no new thing among the messengers (of Allah), nor know I what will be done with me or with you. Quran 46 : 9
Say: "As to the knowledge of the time, it is with Allah alone: I am but a plain warner." 67 : 26

Say: "The Unseen is only for Allah (to know)..." 10: 20

Say: "I tell you not that with me are the treasures of Allah, nor do I know what is hidden (unseen)...." 6 : 50

Who is more true in statement than Allah? 4 : 87

**Ghazalah** · 02-22-2011

We have received both the Quran and the Hadith through exactly the same channels. The same people transmitted this as the Word of Allah SWT and that as the word of the Prophet PBHU Even the verse claiming that the Quran will be protected came to us through the same people. Through what logic can anyone declare that the channels are reliable for the Quran and unreliable for Hadith? On the contrary the Quranic promise of protection must apply to Hadith as well for there is no point in protecting the words but not the meanings of the Quran.

**all4salam** · 02-22-2011

Originally Posted by Ghazalah

So now you're questioning Shariah rulings

Yes, so should you....“Do they not travel through the land, so that their hearts (and minds) may thus learn wisdom and their ears may thus learn to hear? Truly it is not the eyes that are blind, but the hearts which are in their breasts.” (22:46)
We are suppose to go out and seek knowledge.

**Ghazalah** · 02-22-2011

Originally Posted by all4salam

Yes, so should you....“Do they not travel through the land, so that their hearts (and minds) may thus learn wisdom and their ears may thus learn to hear? Truly it is not the eyes that are blind, but the hearts which are in their breasts.” (22:46)
We are suppose to go out and seek knowledge

Seek knowledge does not mean question the law of Allah.

**all4salam** · 02-22-2011

Originally Posted by Ghazalah

We have received both the Quran and the Hadith through exactly the same channels

Prove it...

Originally Posted by Ghazalah

On the contrary the Quranic promise of protection must apply to Hadith as well for there is no point in protecting the words but not the meanings of the Quran

How is the hadith the meaning to Qur'an, when Bukhari only gives Tafsir to about 20% of the Quran??? Some Hadidth contradict themselves and the Quran...

**Tyrion** · 02-22-2011

If you came here looking for an honest discussion, with the intent to learn... Then maybe we could get something done here. It seems however that you've come with your mind made up, so please... Just leave. We don't need more trolls like you here.

Bye bye.

**Ghazalah** · 02-22-2011

SubhanAllah.

Originally Posted by all4salam

Prove it..

They come down to us by the same medium, that is, oral transmission, backed by a chain of narrators.

Originally Posted by all4salam

How is the hadith the meaning to Qur'an, when Bukhari only gives Tafsir to about 20% of the Quran??? Some Hadidth contradict themselves and the Quran...

When something is ambiguous in the Quran where do we derive the meaning from?? The Hadeeth and Sunnah! The life of our Prophet PBUH. For you to reject the Hadith and Sunnah you might as well reject the Prophet himself!

**all4salam** · 02-22-2011

Originally Posted by Tyrion

If you came here looking for an honest discussion, with the intent to learn... Then maybe we could get something done here. It seems however that you've come with your mind made up, so please... Just leave. We don't need more trolls like you here.

Bye bye.

Hold up Akh, I'm not a "troll", I dont Flat out reject Hadith nor is my intent to cause fitna. I only want a discussion about this subject that is never brought up. I see Muslims going back and forth on these boards about the most trivial of things, but I cant have a well needed discussion on do we rely more on Hadith than Qur'an?

**Tyrion** · 02-22-2011

Originally Posted by all4salam

Hold up Akh, I'm not a "troll", I dont Flat out reject Hadith nor is my intent to cause fitna. I only want a discussion about this subject that is never brought up. I see Muslims going back and forth on these boards about the most trivial of things, but I cant have a well needed discussion on do we rely more on Hadith than Qur'an?

But hasn't that already been answered? No, we don't rely more on the Hadith than Quran... We do however use Hadith to help us understand the Quran. What exactly is the problem you have with this?

I hope you really are here for a serious discussion though. There was recently another "Quran only" member who was saying somewhat similar things, and he was very obviously trolling...