Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

And the reason being an intelligent system called evolution? You do agree it is an intelligent system right?

Or do you believe an amoeba has the mental and physical capacity to change physical form by just willing it for many centuries? "Oh I quite fancy growing a pair of those eyes and ears people keep talking about. They are the latest fad."

The design of the eye is extremely intricate and complex. The replication of anything even close to it would need a huge amount of planning, research and development....

I am not sure what you mean sister, but it is possible to evolve eyes and lose them - and then evolve eyes again - evident from some species (where they lost the eyes, where they were no longer beneficial economically, but gained it again when it was). It sounds strange in writing, but it is over millions of years. We humans, live maybe 60-80 years, so it is a reason why we find it very hard to try grasp evolution.

By the way, no one suggest that, an eye just popped up on 1 creature .

 

[Hamayun]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

I am not sure what you mean sister, but it is possible to evolve eyes and lose them - and then evolve eyes again - evident from some species (where they lost the eyes, where they were no longer beneficial economically, but gained it again when it was). It sounds strange in writing, but it is over millions of years. We humans, live maybe 60-80 years, so it is a reason why we find it very hard to try grasp evolution.

By the way, no one suggest that, an eye just popped up on 1 creature .

I understand what you are saying but I was referring to the R&D that must have gone into the design of the eye.

Also who decided that "Wouldn't it be handy if we had 2 video cameras attached to our heads with lenses focussing light on to photo sensitive material which in turn would convert that into an electrical signal and sent to a CPU for processing"

Also I am not a sister?

 

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

I understand what you are saying but I was referring to the R&D that must have gone into the design of the eye.

Also who decided that "Wouldn't it be handy if we had 2 video cameras attached to our heads with lenses focussing light on to photo sensitive material which in turn would convert that into an electrical signal and sent to a CPU for processing"

Also I am not a sister?

Sorry brother >.<.

As for, who decides, its actually, "natural", hence natural selection.

You see, the creatures compete as you know. Having eyes, use up resources, energy and so fourth. So, in a population of eyed species, if a mutant individual or group, who, were blind came in- they could have an advantage (as they don't need to use as much resources, as you know the brain uses alot on the eyes), they will have an advantage over the others. This is in a situation ofcourse where, say, due to environmental or otherwise, their was a serious lack of light, hence making eyes insufficient. In such a population, the blind ones will eventually take over, as they will better compete and the others will die off.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

Sorry brother >.<.

As for, who decides, its actually, "natural", hence natural selection.

You see, the creatures compete as you know. Having eyes, use up resources, energy and so fourth. So, in a population of eyed species, if a mutant individual or group, who, were blind came in- they could have an advantage (as they don't need to use as much resources, as you know the brain uses alot on the eyes), they will have an advantage over the others. This is in a situation ofcourse where, say, due to environmental or otherwise, their was a serious lack of light, hence making eyes insufficient. In such a population, the blind ones will eventually take over, as they will better compete and the others will die off.

That brings about a bit of a paradox. Especially in the case of blind cave animals. Natural caves actually only have relatively short periods of time in which they support a living population. The geology of caves is quite rapid in terms of geological ages. Not the millions of years required for changes in animals to be explained by the current theories of evolution.

 

[Hamayun]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

Sorry brother >.<.

As for, who decides, its actually, "natural", hence natural selection.

You see, the creatures compete as you know. Having eyes, use up resources, energy and so fourth. So, in a population of eyed species, if a mutant individual or group, who, were blind came in- they could have an advantage (as they don't need to use as much resources, as you know the brain uses alot on the eyes), they will have an advantage over the others. This is in a situation ofcourse where, say, due to environmental or otherwise, their was a serious lack of light, hence making eyes insufficient. In such a population, the blind ones will eventually take over, as they will better compete and the others will die off.

That hasn't answered my question about the Research and development that went into designing an eye that uses accurate lenses to correctly focus light and efficently works for different species according to their needs.

There are millions of chemical reactions that take place in the eye within split seconds, then the information is converted into electrical format and transmitted to the central processing unit of the human body. An extremely clever design...

Did nature do the R&D? If nature did that then nature must be an intelligent being who is in control of all this? Hmm.... who is nature and how does he know how to design all these complex systems?

The retracting pupils, the eye lids, the lenses of perfect curvature, the chemical system, the data transfer system, the data processing system... I can go on forever. Who did the research, planning and development?

 

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

Who said anything about research&Development? Can you prove that, nature has to be intelligent, to form an eye? Does, yourself finding the eye to be complex, a solid arguement for design? Not really. (Intelligence, here, implies concious decisioning, natural selection, although is not seen as random, is seen as blind and unconcious).

 

[Hamayun]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

Who said anything about research&Development? Can you prove that, nature has to be intelligent, to form an eye? Does, yourself finding the eye to be complex, a solid arguement for design? Not really. (Intelligence, here, implies concious decisioning, natural selection, although is not seen as random, is seen as blind and unconcious).

So according to you unconciously these animals created all the complex systems of the body?

The nervous system
The respiratory system
The digestive system
The reproductive system
The circulatory system
The self healing of bones, skin etc
Sight
Hearing
Touch
Smell
Taste
Love
Compassion
Guilt
Repentance
Honesty

Came into existence blindly? With no design? I don't know how you are happy to believe that yet you find the idea of a creator absurd?

Sorry but I don't share your logic.

Also survival of the fittest should mean that things like self sacrifice, honesty, compassion, love shouldn't exist. They go against susrvival of the fittest. Why do we even have morals in that case?

 

[suffiyan007]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

i dont have a chance to read Harun Yahya...books...i felt it was a waste...i cant find it in Malaysia...because oversea books..! :coolious:

 

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

So according to you unconciously these animals created all the complex systems of the body?

The nervous system
The respiratory system
The digestive system
The reproductive system
The circulatory system
The self healing of bones, skin etc
Sight
Hearing
Touch
Smell
Taste
Love
Compassion
Guilt
Repentance
Honesty

I discussed this brother, define complex? Isn't it subjective? Can you give me a scientific proof of the limitations of nature?

Came into existence blindly? With no design? I don't know how you are happy to believe that yet you find the idea of a creator absurd?

Evolution does not prove nor disprove Allah my brother.

Also survival of the fittest should mean that things like self sacrifice, honesty, compassion, love shouldn't exist. They go against susrvival of the fittest. Why do we even have morals in that case?

That is, misunderstanding of evolution on your behalf. Just 1 example of thousands, a group of animals, who work together - will have an increased chance of survival, then a group who do not co-operate. Quite logical, and simple imo.

 

[Trumble]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

The retracting pupils, the eye lids, the lenses of perfect curvature, the chemical system, the data transfer system, the data processing system... I can go on forever. Who did the research, planning and development?

Nobody, because no such 'research, planning and development' was necessary. I mentioned earlier that putting up rhetoric against science just doesn't cut it.. evolution by natural selection provides at least an outline explanation of how eye could come into existence without any of those things. BTW, perhaps if there had been some 'research, planning and development' there would be no such things as myopia and glaucoma.

Sorry but I don't share your logic.

Also survival of the fittest should mean that things like self sacrifice, honesty, compassion, love shouldn't exist. They go against susrvival of the fittest. Why do we even have morals in that case?

You aren't using any 'logic', just rhetoric which, as with Yahya, is only likely to effective with those who are already committed to the creationist cause and/or simply don't understand what evolution is actually about.

Whether emotions can be treated in terms of Darwinian evolution or not is a very open question, but there is a sizeable amount of literature (Tooby, Cosmides, Ekman, Averill), suggesting both that they can and that they have evolved precisely because they enhance survival chances and not reduce them... there is indeed even one theory (De Sousa) that claims they are essential for rational thought of any kind to occur at all.

'Morals' are distinct from emotions; and they are social constructs not the result of evolution.. at least in the Darwinian sense. Even so, it can easily be argued they enhance survival chances and not reduce them. You are much more likely to survive as one of a group that co-operates according to a common convention of morality than as an individual who won't/can't co-operate with anybody.

PS. Actually, surely the 'research, planning and development' thing makes no sense in the context of God, anyway? He wouldn't need to 'research' or 'develop', surely? I'm not even sure 'planning' makes much sense in the context of an omnipotent, omniscient entity.

 

[Hamayun]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

All I see is lots of words... inconclusive, absurd and unconvincing.

If you are happy to believe that some animals grew wings with the intention of using the atmosphere as a mode of transport and just unknowingly stumbled upon the laws of aeronautical physics then that's your choice.

Sorry but your theories are nothing but empty words to me. I am out of this debate because we could go around in circles and still never see eye to eye.

Peace out eace:

 

[SixTen]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

All I see is lots of words... inconclusive, absurd and unconvincing.

If you are happy to believe that some animals grew wings with the intention of using the atmosphere as a mode of transport and just unknowingly stumbled upon the laws of aeronautical physics then that's your choice.

Sorry but your theories are nothing but empty words to me. I am out of this debate because we could go around in circles and still never see eye to eye.

Peace out eace:

You know brother, the arrogant attitude does you no favour. This surrendering of the debate, shows that you wern't looking for a discussion to begin with - you just wanted to impose your beliefs on others. This is common, on those who do not have knowledge on a particular subject, but I will show patience and continue to answer any queries.

First, if you don't know about evolution, you ask, that is what people normally do. You could have asked, how did birds end up with wings to fly? But no, instead, tried to make it look like we believe in absurd science.

First, about the wings, nature didn't create them to make the creatures fly. However, just imagine, a mutant creature, with 5% (or less of a developped wing). His survival chance increases, simply due to that, he is able to land better (wind resistance etc), it is by natural selection, that it was favoured that he has this piece of wing - the wing did not form in the first place because nature wanted it but it was via mutation of the gene - which came about by evolution. Now, over millions of years, the creatures with longer wings, tended to survive better and do better in the environment. Over many many millions of years, you see them to have the wings they have today - that wing didn't just come overnight, or was not even the intention of nature. It happened via natural selection.

The ability to fly, was not even natures intent, that was a by product of the whole process.

You shouldn't exit so soon, because a lot of the things - I am happy to explain. Any claim you got, from "Why do apes still exist?" to "Why are polar bears white then?"

 

[جوري]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

Nobody, because no such 'research, planning and development' was necessary. I mentioned earlier that putting up rhetoric against science just doesn't cut it.. evolution by natural selection provides at least an outline explanation of how eye could come into existence without any of those things. BTW, perhaps if there had been some 'research, planning and development' there would be no such things as myopia and glaucoma.

.

I must admit, that I have merely browsed over the topic and not sure who is saying what, but couldn't help be attracted to the above.. far from me to desire a long winded debate as I am pressed for time until the end of this month, but perhaps you can offer me a scientific outline as to how natural selection caused the evolution of the eye?
start with that basic unit or protein, and I'll be generous enough as to not question where it came from, and how the cell adapted just the right molecular structure every time to develop rods and cones, how it converts light energy into an electrical signal. How the ciliary body, canal of Schlemm, extraoccular muscles all came to be as an entity let alone to work harmoniously in the human or animal body before we can discuss aberrations in that system as why they have come to be.

cheers

 

[doorster]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

Praise be to Allah; we praise Him, seek His forgiveness, and turn to Him in repentance.
We seek refuge with Him from the evils of our souls and the evils of our deeds. Whomever Allah guides, none can misguide, and whomever Allah leads astray, none can guide. I bear witness that there is no god but Allah alone without partner, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger.

[FONT=&quot]قُلْ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]يَا[/FONT][FONT=&quot]أَيُّهَا[/FONT][FONT=&quot]الْكَافِرُونَ[/FONT] ([FONT=&quot]١[/FONT])
[FONT=&quot]لا[/FONT][FONT=&quot]أَعْبُدُ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]مَا[/FONT][FONT=&quot]تَعْبُدُونَ[/FONT] ([FONT=&quot]٢[/FONT])
[FONT=&quot]وَلا[/FONT][FONT=&quot]أَنْتُمْ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]عَابِدُونَ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]مَا[/FONT][FONT=&quot]أَعْبُدُ[/FONT] ([FONT=&quot]٣[/FONT])
[FONT=&quot]وَلا[/FONT][FONT=&quot]أَنَا[/FONT][FONT=&quot]عَابِدٌ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]مَا[/FONT][FONT=&quot]عَبَدْتُمْ[/FONT] ([FONT=&quot]٤[/FONT])
[FONT=&quot]وَلا[/FONT][FONT=&quot]أَنْتُمْ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]عَابِدُونَ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]مَا[/FONT][FONT=&quot]أَعْبُدُ[/FONT] ([FONT=&quot]٥[/FONT])
[FONT=&quot]لَكُمْ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]دِينُكُمْ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]وَلِيَ[/FONT][FONT=&quot]دِينِ[/FONT] ([FONT=&quot]٦[/FONT])
​

All I see is lots of words... inconclusive, absurd and unconvincing.

If you are happy to believe that some animals grew wings with the intention of using the atmosphere as a mode of transport and just unknowingly stumbled upon the laws of aeronautical physics then that's your choice.

Sorry but your theories are nothing but empty words to me. I am out of this debate because we could go around in circles and still never see eye to eye.

Peace out eace:

It is a futile effort to talk to these people, whenever lost for words, they start name calling and when given their own medicine back they cry foul and play the martyr.

The only reason I, occasionally, respond to these people is so that no innocent gets taken in by them, other than that I have no desire (or gift of the gab) to debate them nor do I have any need to placate them.

 

[Hamayun]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

You know brother, the arrogant attitude does you no favour. This surrendering of the debate, shows that you wern't looking for a discussion to begin with - you just wanted to impose your beliefs on others. This is common, on those who do not have knowledge on a particular subject, but I will show patience and continue to answer any queries.

First, if you don't know about evolution, you ask, that is what people normally do. You could have asked, how did birds end up with wings to fly? But no, instead, tried to make it look like we believe in absurd science.

First, about the wings, nature didn't create them to make the creatures fly. However, just imagine, a mutant creature, with 5% (or less of a developped wing). His survival chance increases, simply due to that, he is able to land better (wind resistance etc), it is by natural selection, that it was favoured that he has this piece of wing - the wing did not form in the first place because nature wanted it but it was via mutation of the gene - which came about by evolution. Now, over millions of years, the creatures with longer wings, tended to survive better and do better in the environment. Over many many millions of years, you see them to have the wings they have today - that wing didn't just come overnight, or was not even the intention of nature. It happened via natural selection.

The ability to fly, was not even natures intent, that was a by product of the whole process.

You shouldn't exit so soon, because a lot of the things - I am happy to explain. Any claim you got, from "Why do apes still exist?" to "Why are polar bears white then?"

Sorry brother but I can't continue because even the theory about wings developing by mutation and then refining to an amazing level without any influence to me sounds too far fetched.

Reason why I exited is because all the answers I am getting are so far fetched they make me wonder how any of you can have the cheek to laugh at the idea of a creator.

Not convinced and frankly not buying it.. just like you don't buy the idea of intelligent design.

Peace

P.S. I will look forward to sister Skye's perspective on the "eye" issue since she has more of a medical background than any of us.

 

[جوري]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

I should say this before hand since this topic has been discussed here ad nauseam

1- I'd have no problems with evolution by 'natural selection' whatsoever if it were capable of being tested (verified or falsified) by experiment or observation!
2- To have an actual name to the mutations that have caused this positive change.. throughout my study of science and genetics, I haven't come across one mutation causing a positive change..
3- Some sort of mathematical data to backup this constant transformation as per number of species we have, the time that it took for this earth to foster life, and a purpose behind it
4- Everything in science is constant to subject change, modalities that were used 5 years ago are obsolete today... so why do some folks insist of holding on to incredibly archaic ideas as if it were a religion all its own.. isn't in fact the nature of science is self-correction? why do we use extremely unobvious and utterly irreproducible 'scientific' data from a couple of centuries ago, when we have had ample time to translate it into facts-- save that it is anti-religious in content?

If this is your belief of how life came to be, than classify it under just that a notion in which you've placed some confidence.. No more no less!

 

[Hamayun]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

Just remembered an article I read by a Scientist named Clyde Berkley. I am neutral about the article and don't want to debate on it. Just thought you may find it interesting.

The scientists seem to want to continue to push the theory of evolution as if it is a law and not a theory. I am also a scientist, and I believe that the theory of evolution is a failed scientific theory. We should be pushing alternatives to this theory. Creation is not an alternative since, although it may be true, it is not a scientific theory because it is based on faith.

However, the theory of evolution is also based on faith. It requires the DNA of one species to become the DNA of another species and not one scientist has a viable theory as to how this can happen. I was talking to a DNA expert, who also was an evolutionist, and I asked him if the theory of evolution required the DNA of one species to become the DNA of another species. He said that was true. I asked him how this could happen, and he said he did not know, but he believed it did occur. That is faith and anything based on faith is a religion and not science.

Clyde Berkley

 

[alcurad]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

ad nauseam indeed.
it is true that evo has some holes to plug as of yet,but on the other extreme we have people who believe that cows were there 600mya...

 

[جوري]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

there is an answer to this in the Quran, for those who understand Arabic and actually look for it..

2: 30

AND LO!* Thy Sustainer said unto the angels: "Behold, I am about to establish upon earth one who shall inherit it."**

They said: "Wilt Thou place on it such as will spread corruption thereon and shed blood -whereas it is we who extol Thy limitless glory, and praise Thee, and hallow Thy name?"

[God] answered: "Verily, I know that which you do not know."




The earth was already in existence, and there was what was on it to spill blood, hence the query of the angels..
if you think about it.. humans appeared when conditions on earth fostered human life...

how they came to be, well there are several theories.. religion offers you one, dawkin offers you another.. if one wishes to subscribe to the 'rational' unicellular organism constanly evolving to bring you over 500,000,000, + species, it is their reserved prerogative. you can't impose either schools of thoughts on people.. it takes away their will to think for themselves..

 

[alcurad]

Re: Harun Yahya's book "The Atlas of Creation" is sent to schools all over the world

The earth was already in existence, and there was what was on it to spill blood, hence the query of the angels..
if you think about it.. humans appeared when conditions on earth fostered human life...

...there are several theories.. religion offers you one, dawkin offers you another...you can't impose either schools of thoughts on people.. it takes away their will to think for themselves..

or the angels had seen it happen before, but the point here is that it is not clear how living creatures other than humans came to be, it doesn't say much about humans either at that.

the 'jannah' that Adam lived in is the same jannah the faithful go to in the hereafter on the prophet's authority?
again, evo is not a complete answer, but the creationist christians or the muslims copying them-like Oktar- are certainly not correct.

رُهاب النّص is a good description of an attitude prevalent since أهل الرأي-fuqaha'- lost to أهل الأثر-muhadditheen-,,,