Are Muslims today backward?

[Argamemnon]

Was the former president of Pakistan General Pervez Musharaff, right when he said: "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"

He is absolutely right, no doubt. All those people who are denying this fall into the category of "backward Muslims". They are totally blinded, and can't see the truth.

 

[Argamemnon]

i accept that the muslims arent as good as the ones we read about in our books.

However, the values, morals and teachings outweigh every other one around us.

Yes, cutting women's ears, noses and lips in countries like Pakistan shows that our "values" are indeed superior to every other one around us!

Please... why not open our eyes and see the truth. Muslims and Islam are totally different things. Islam is perfect, while Muslims are very very far from being perfect.

 

[Keltoi]

China has still been pretty powerful though, even before then. As for the Greeks, they didn't build an empire themselves (until Alexander), just had a very advanced culture.

True, the Greeks were not military imperialists until Alexander, but in terms of trade and their economy they were rivals with the Persians, and were capable of defending their interests.

Where would you say that cycle is now? Does it still happen?

It is hard to say. With the advent of nuclear weapons it sort of puts things at a standstill in terms of great struggles between empires. The battlefield is now more economic than military. Those nations with vast oil reserves were and are economically successful. The superpowers of the world depended upon their oil to keep their societies afloat. With oil beginning to fall behind demand, it could lead to some unfortunate incidents in the future.

 

[alcurad]

all civilizations started out like what? and as Umar ibn Al Khattab said: there is only decrease after achieving completeness. the situation has vastly improved over the last 2-3 centuries, the only thing lacking is a revolution, not necessarily the French type but one in the realm of information.

 

[Dawud_uk]

Here we can ask what does it mean - "advanced" or "succesful" country. In my opinion in such country all homes have electricity and warm water. The medical care is on high level. The education is effective. The unemployment is low, which makes easy for young people to begin work. The police is uncorrupted and there is safety on the streets. The state gives enough social help to help those who really need it.
For example UK

my definition of advanced is then very different to yours (and by the replies most peoples here)

my definition of advanced is where the people worship their creator and submit to him, so therefore there is little crime or disorder, and the police fearing Allah will not be corrupt.

they submit so also follow the commandmants to educate themselves and seek knowledge so the medical care and education is good also.

but also finally the people knowing the world is but a trust from Allah which they must answer for and doesnt belong to them, they will look after it as best they can.

i.e definately not the uk where i happen to live myself and know the police are far from good, the streets are not safe in many parts, the soil is often poisonous and the water undrinkable unless more chemicals added, and the educational system is poor also, more useful for producing worker drones than educating.

 

[Nerd]

By the mid-8th Century, the Muslims had established one of the world's largest ever and most powerful Empires, headed by the Abbasid Caliphate.

The new capital of that Empire - Baghdad - became the unrivaled intellectual center of the World.

Influenced by such Prophetic sayings as 'The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of martyrs" , they went on to invent science.

As if charging forward with a cry of 'Iqra!' (Read!) the next 700 years or so became an age of splendid achievement, enlightenment and invention.

The Muslims had learned the secret Chinese art of making paper and put it to good use.

The Muslims also gave the world their first public hospitals, introduced the first lending libraries, established the first Universities that issued degrees and diplomas, financed research centers, constructed astronomical observatories and promoted intellectual thinking on a vast scale.

Chemistry was practically INVENTED by the Muslims. (Distillation, Crystallization, Filtration, Calcination were all invented in this age.)

Algebra was invented during this time, as was one of the greatest inventions of the time - the Astrolabe.

Apart from that, ancient Greek, Roman and Indian wisdom was rediscovered and translated into various languages during this period.

Scholars and polymaths - both Muslim and Non-Muslim - met with the intention of translating all the knowledge in the world into Arabic (which was then then translated into Persian, Turkish and Hebrew)

The Mosque was also a center of learning, where one could sit at the teacher's feet and learn subjects ranging from Astronomy to Chemistry.

The literary masterpiece The Rubaaiyat of Omar Khayyaam also belongs to this era.

The Muslims charted the Seas and mapped the Skies. They produced, collated, spread and preserved information, in hundreds of thousands of volumes, in libraries in Spain and Persia and Morocco and Egypt.

This, at a time when Christian Europe was in the dark ages - thanks to the powerful Church which didn't let common folk read even the Bible.

The courts of Caliph Harun-Al-Rashid invited scholars from among Muslims, Jews and Atheists alike to their 'House of Wisdom'. The most famous Caliph of Baghdad patronized Music and Art. Culture, religion and Economy prospered.

The great personalties, philosophers and polymaths of that time - Ibn Sina (known to the world as Avicenna), Geber, Averroes, Omar Khayyaam, Al-Khwarizmi, Al Biruni, Abu Haytham, Al-Khaldun and dozens of others were the products of an age when rational thought, intellectual pursuit and experimental method were part of the state policy.

Thus was the Golden Age of Islam.

Who Killed the Golden Age?

Now. All good things come to an end.

The Crusades happened. The Mongols arrived. The Plague struck. The Empire hurt.

The Crusaders and Mongols (The Chengiz Khan himself!) burnt down those Libraries and Universities and Hospitals. The invasions and weakened the Empire.

AND SURPRISE!

That's when the Islamists struck! No kidding. Even in that Golden, intellectual age, there was no dearth of morons or Enemies of reason.

Those Islamists declared the invasions to be 'God's Punishment' for pursuit of polemic (read: UnIslamic) thinking.

Certain "scholars" and philosophers like Al-Ghazali declared free thought to be against the scriptures (ie. 'against Islam') in his book 'The Incoherence of Philosophers'.

Ijtihad was "against Islam". Bid'ah (innovation) was 'against Islam'. The list of things 'against Islam' kept growing.

Sure enough, a lack of tolerance for intellectual debate kicked in. Freedom of thought got restricted. Innovation ended. Punishments started.

By the 14th Century, the pipe had completely shut.The Golden Age ended.


The Dreadful West.

We all know what happened after the Golden age of Islam ended.

Martin Luther King told the Pope to suck it, and started the Protestant movement that broke the Church's vice-grip over the state. The Europeans stepped out of their centuries of ignorance, with their own fantastic Renaissance.

Leonardo Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Galilieo and Shakespeare arrived on the scene, and Geber and Avicenna were forgotten.

Art, architecture, music, literature, science and invention flourished. Somebody invented the Gutenberg Press (OK, I think it was Gutenberg.. ) and kickstarted the printing industry. (Of course, by this time, all these things had become 'unIslamic'.)

Exploration of the seas took place. New worlds - America and East Indies were discovered. Colonization began. The Portuguese, French, English and Spanish all took a slice of the world.

The West took over, and the WEST has dominated the world ever since.

Telegrams, Postal systems, Electricity, Light bulbs, Steam Engines, Railway lines, Telephones, Tape Recorders, Vaccines, Automobiles, Jet Engines, Submarines, Computers, Internet, Nuclear power, Spacecrafts, Satellites.. they've invented it all.

The Mullahs remained mute spectators.

21st Century : The Irony!

So I wrote a post the other day simply stating what everyone already knows.

The 'Muslim countries' are pathetically backward. The 'West' continues to achieve greatness.

In a tragic twist of fate, today the Islamists - having achieved nothing in history - turn once again to 'the Golden Age of Islam'!

The very Golden Age that they killed with their "It's all un-Islamic" !

JUST WHO ARE THEY TRYING TO FOOL?!

The Golden Age of Islam was the result of highly progressive values, encouragement of Art, Music and Innovation, promotion of rational and polemic thinking, investment in science and experimentation, sanction for research and exploration and FREEDOM of thought and expression.

The greatest figures of that day weren't necessarily Muslim, but their wisdom and Scholarship were appreciated and given due credit.

Omar Khayyaam, a hero of the 'Golden Age', wrote in his wonderful Rubaaiyat (ironically, reintroduced to the world by a 'Western' Edward Fitzgerald)

Allah, perchance, the secret word might spell;
If Allah be, He keeps His secret well;
What He hath hidden, who shall hope to find?
Shall God His secret to a maggot tell?


Tell me if I am wrong. But if Omar Khayyaam were alive today, he'd be declared an apostate twice over, and hounded with a Death-note fatwa and a $5 million bounty on his head.

The Islamists of today who dream of magically re-establishing a Caliphate and 'restore the glory' clearly CANNOT, DO NOT and WILL NOT EVER dare to permit free expression, cultivate the scientific method or tolerate different opinions. Their mentality is exactly like the medieval church. Their very existence depends on people's ignorance.

Reviving Islam's Golden age? And Them?! Let me get this straight.

The Islamists never have - and never will - achieve any greatness. History bears witness to their regressive ways. The losers have only ever stopped any progressive action from taking place.


P.S. Here's another pearl from Omar Khayyaam that I treasure.

And do you think that unto such as you,
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew,
God gave the secret, and denied it me?—
Well, well, what matters it! Believe that too!

 

[alcurad]

very naive summation of over a millennium of history spanning dozens of people, cultures and empires. not that the muslims are not in a very good shape, but still if you swallow up all that 'official' version that mostly the Islamists out of all people seem to sprout, I do recommend you read more history.
I don't mean to denounce you, but I have a problem with the idea that it was all roses and algebra back then..

 

[Nerd]

very naive summation of over a millennium of history spanning dozens of people, cultures and empires. not that the muslims are not in a very good shape, but still if you swallow up all that 'official' version that mostly the Islamists out of all people seem to sprout, I do recommend you read more history.
I don't mean to denounce you, but I have a problem with the idea that it was all roses and algebra back then..

I know it sounds very simplistic - because like you said, it is nearly a thousand years compressed to a few sentences.

I haven't even bothered to maintain a strict timeline - you'll see all 700 years together.

But I can assure you it's not due to naivety or from a lack of research.

My post is sufficient to prove the points I wish to prove.

First being that among the many causes that had lead to the end of an unrivalled knowledge age, Islamist fundamentalism played no small role.

It's recorded history.

Their regressive ideology exerted huge pressures in the latter days of the Golden age.

History talks of artists who've had their hands chopped off, others were ridiculed and intidmidated in teh later years for being 'anti-Islamic' and straying from "God's path".

(Which is pretty much what the Islamists continue to do to this day)

SO when today's Islamists talk of an 'Islamic GOlden Age', let their hypocrisy or ignorance be known.

It wasn't their ideology that led to this GOlden Age.

Conversely, it was the rejection of their ideology and pursuing the scientific method and free expression and open questioning of all established norms that led to that genius age.

I find it funny that the Islamists today try to brainwash people against the west by claiming that the Golden Age was 'superior' to the Western development.

The truth is that the Western development is due to their continuing application of scientific ideals started by the Chinese and Golden Age era Caliphs like Harun-Al-Rashid.

"The West" learned from the GOlden age.

If you want to 'revive' a Golden age that the Islamists killed, then follow the 'West' not them.

 

[Dawud_uk]

I know it sounds very simplistic - because like you said, it is nearly a thousand years compressed to a few sentences.

I haven't even bothered to maintain a strict timeline - you'll see all 700 years together.

But I can assure you it's not due to naivety or from a lack of research.

My post is sufficient to prove the points I wish to prove.

First being that among the many causes that had lead to the end of an unrivalled knowledge age, Islamist fundamentalism played no small role.

It's recorded history.

Their regressive ideology exerted huge pressures in the latter days of the Golden age.

History talks of artists who've had their hands chopped off, others were ridiculed and intidmidated in teh later years for being 'anti-Islamic' and straying from "God's path".

(Which is pretty much what the Islamists continue to do to this day)

SO when today's Islamists talk of an 'Islamic GOlden Age', let their hypocrisy or ignorance be known.

It wasn't their ideology that led to this GOlden Age.

Conversely, it was the rejection of their ideology and pursuing the scientific method and free expression and open questioning of all established norms that led to that genius age.

I find it funny that the Islamists today try to brainwash people against the west by claiming that the Golden Age was 'superior' to the Western development.

The truth is that the Western development is due to their continuing application of scientific ideals started by the Chinese and Golden Age era Caliphs like Harun-Al-Rashid.

"The West" learned from the GOlden age.

If you want to 'revive' a Golden age that the Islamists killed, then follow the 'West' not them.

your post is not evidence, it is opinion, well researched opinion but it is not evidence.

there is i believe a better analysis of history from the point of view of the islamists, that of people staying from the right path and hence as a people being punished.

what is more there is huge evidence for such opinion not just from history but also from the Quran and sunnah, that this is the way Allah deals with people who ignore his rulings.

 

[Nerd]

^ with all respect, would you mind defining the right path? I would like to know whether am contradicting it or not with what I have stated.

 

[Dawud_uk]

^ with all respect, would you mind defining the right path? I would like to know whether am contradicting it or not with what I have stated.

the right path is the Quran and sunnah, Allah and his messenger (saws) have informed us of what will happen if certain parts of islam are ignored and this is the cause of our demise not the lack of intellectual persuit, which is a symptom of a wider demise not a cause.

 

[Bittersteel]

Was the former president of Pakistan General Pervez Musharaff, right when he said: "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race"

1 million per cent agree.

Kuffar Prizes dont decide whos intelligent or not

I think that's a petty excuse to cover up the obvious failure in innovation and research.
I can look around and see NOTHING in the last 100 or so years that a Muslim can feel proud of having contributed to.

^agree with what he said.

I think we are going through a phase...one of the phases of the fall of Muslim civilization.

 

[Keltoi]

The Dreadful West.

We all know what happened after the Golden age of Islam ended.

Martin Luther King told the Pope to suck it, and started the Protestant movement that broke the Church's vice-grip over the state. The Europeans stepped out of their centuries of ignorance, with their own fantastic Renaissance.

Just a correction. You mean Martin Luther. Martin Luther King was the American civil rights leader.

 

[alcurad]

the method of government is the cause I think, not any particular ideology. the rulers used these ideologies for their ends, except for a few backwaters, where do the islamists hold sway?
I'm afraid you are buying the whole nine yards and more of the myth that the islamists have even a semblance of control of any country or region.
what we lack, is indeed a pure version of Islam, one that does not care for sect or ethnicity or any kind of specialness, but we lack even more when it comes to science and it's applications.
I would say economic prosperity will be a good starting point for that, notice the more well off societies generally got richer first, then started reforming.

 

[Nerd]

Just a correction. You mean Martin Luther. Martin Luther King was the American civil rights leader.

Thanks. I stand corrected. Don't know where the King came from..

 

[Dawud_uk]

the method of government is the cause I think, not any particular ideology. the rulers used these ideologies for their ends, except for a few backwaters, where do the islamists hold sway?
I'm afraid you are buying the whole nine yards and more of the myth that the islamists have even a semblance of control of any country or region.
what we lack, is indeed a pure version of Islam, one that does not care for sect or ethnicity or any kind of specialness, but we lack even more when it comes to science and it's applications.
I would say economic prosperity will be a good starting point for that, notice the more well off societies generally got richer first, then started reforming.

did the prophet muhammad (saws) start with getting the economy right first or the society first upon the Quran and sunnah?

 

[AabiruSabeel]

إذا تبايعتم بالعينة، وأخذتم أذناب البقر، و رضيتم بالزرع، وتركتم الجهاد؛ سلط الله عليكم ذلا لا ينزعه حتى ترجعوا إلى دينكم

"When you start usurious trade, when you grab a hold of cows' tails and limit yourselves to farming and abandon Jihad, Allah will sent upon you humiliation, from which you will not be delivered until you return to your Faith."

(Authentic Hadith reported by Ahmad).

Isn't the above Hadeeth a clear explanation for our problems?

During the time of our Prophet (PBUH), there were scores of problems in all spheres of life. The tribal wars, the insecurity (looting of caravans), the peak of ignorance, burying daughters alive, doing Tawaf naked, usury, intoxicants and all types of social evils were rampant.
Now to remove all these evils from society, what would the present day intellectuals say? Build a university, spread education, bring economic reform... follow the west...
But what did our Prophet (PBUH) did which made those who followed him the rulers of the world, an example for the living and dead?
It was just the effort of Iman. O people! say La ilaha illallah, you will be successful. O people! follow the commands of Allah, and live your life according to Sunnah, you will be successful...

The same is the case now. If we want to bring about a revolution in the Muslim world, we have to do the same efforts that were done by all the Prophets and Messengers, and later by SaHabah...

 

[Nerd]

the right path is the Quran and sunnah, Allah and his messenger (saws) have informed us of what will happen if certain parts of islam are ignored and this is the cause of our demise not the lack of intellectual persuit, which is a symptom of a wider demise not a cause.

I haven't mentioned anywhere in the post not to follow the Quran and the Sunnah. But I have mentioned quiet clearly that so-called Islamist's today tend to misinterpret Quran, Hadith and what-not to fit to their perverted version of Islam.

For example:

Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) went to war riding a camel.. God instructed the Prophet.. God knows best.. so today do we have to ride camels to our wars? If not, why? And if so what about the changed ground reality?

 

[Thinker]

Are Muslims backward is not a good question. A better question would be – why have certain societies failed and others succeeded.

Without getting bogged down in defining success and failure it is unarguable that citizens of some societies have a more secure and comfortable life than others. The question is – why? A prime example is Africa which has huge wealth in natural resources and for the most part, the people are starving. I was recently in a group when a person attempted to provoke an argument asked the question “are Africans less intelligent than Europeans?” I have lived and worked in Africa and know that on an individual basis they are equally as intelligent as any other race. I am not sure they share the same energy or ambition but that might be cultural. I have also worked lived and worked in China and India and they are very ‘intelligent’ and appear to have a greater energy and ambition than Europeans yet they haven’t been as successful.

I suspect that culture has a lot to do with providing the enabling environment for success. I believe corruption in all its forms is a huge factor. For example culturally, if a police man in the UK stopped a (native) British motorist and asked for a bribe 999 out of 1000 would refuse to pay and report the policeman. Would it be the same in Pakistan? But it’s not just corruption it’s a culture that values certain standards and certain achievements. I believe a culture that is constantly striving to copy the lifestyle of 7C Bedouins isn’t going to achieve the same things as another striving for other goals – but some might argue that getting a place in heaven is more important than achieving earthly success.

 

[Dawud_uk]

I haven't mentioned anywhere in the post not to follow the Quran and the Sunnah. But I have mentioned quiet clearly that so-called Islamist's today tend to misinterpret Quran, Hadith and what-not to fit to their perverted version of Islam.

For example:

Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) went to war riding a camel.. God instructed the Prophet.. God knows best.. so today do we have to ride camels to our wars? If not, why? And if so what about the changed ground reality?

nerd, i really assumed given your previous posts you were not this daft to make such a point as it is so easy it refute it hardly seems worth the effort.

The sunnah is in matters of religious affairs, so going by car is not an innovation, really come on now, is that the best you can do? i feel quite insulted you would use such a low brow argument against me.

but to go back to matters of war, using a gun instead of a bow and arrow, this is not an innovation and training in rifle shooting would fulfil the sunnah of practicing with a bow and arrow.

but the choice of whether to kill, enslave, randsom or release prisoners of war belonging to the amir is something that will remain whatever the means of capturing them due to different tactics and weaponry used.