Peace in Palestine?

[Ramadhan]

I don't recall claiming that millions of Americans are demanding our government to stop giving aid and full backings to Israel.

This is what you wrote:

What makes you think I and a few million other Americans haven't? You contine to make unfounded assumptions.

in reply to this:

Tell that to your government who gives billions of dollars for free in cash every year to Israel, not to mention other types of assistance (military, politics, trades, citzenships, etc), further legitimizing the illegal occupiers.

I hope you remember what you wrote. This kind of incident makes me to question the veracity of your posts.

It is going to take tens of millions making those demands to bring about change of the type you are wanting to see. That hasn't happened yet.

It still doesn't answer my question:
why is The USA willing to be used by a small foreign country who has nothing to offer to the US as its bulldog?
What makes the US government so scared of Israel?

 

[Grace Seeker]

This is what you wrote:



in reply to this:



I hope you remember what you wrote. This kind of incident makes me to question the veracity of your posts.

I can see why you thought what you thought. That which you quoted was expressed as a question, not making a statement. That's why I didn't remember making a declaratory statement like the one you creditted to me.

[qyuote]It still doesn't answer my question:
why is The USA willing to be used by a small foreign country who has nothing to offer to the US as its bulldog?
What makes the US government so scared of Israel?[/QUOTE]
As I said above, I think that Alcurad addressed this.


In terms of questioning the veracity of my posts, all you have to do is read what I actually write, rather than read into them. Here we are in at least some agreement about what position the US ought to have with respect to Israel and Palestine. But you made a comment that I should tell the US government something before you knew whether I had or not. So, I asked you a question about what made you think that I had not?. Likewise, what made you think that millions of others had not? But these were questions about what made you think as you did, not expressions of my thought or assertions of any particular truth. Then later I did make a statement with regard to what I had done in speaking to my government, but hadn't included anything about "millions of Americans" in that statement at that time. So, I suspect that millions of American's have by our voice and vote told our government that we are not in agreement with US policy vis-a-vis Israel and Palestine. But I didn't actaully express that opinion until later after you had read that point of view into the question I put to you earlier. That's part of what I mean about reading into things and jumping to conclusions. And I think this is what may also be the cause of you being so confused by the Bible that you end up with interpretations of Christian theology that no Christian actually shares.

 

[-Fallen Angel-]

What makes the US government so scared of Israel?

Because all the (zionist) "jews" hold all the $$$ back home in the US. Their will, is US law.

 

[titus]

what road blocks??? - they must have been as large as the US's Veto power. Why would the palestinains even put up "road blocks" when all the land that they are meant to have (Gaza, westbank, east Jerusalem) is currently occupied by Isreal - wheres the palestinian state here? Its not just evil american money - its the US - on purpose letting Isreal occupy the land that was meant to go to the palestinains and make a palestine under international law and concensus - As we speak Gaza has a blockade, there are Isrealis settlers on west bank and east Jerusalem is under Isreals control and as the Nethanyu said - they are not splitting Jerusalem - so whos blocking the peace process here.

Is it your contention that the Palestinian leaders have always called for a peaceful resolution? That they have always wanted to negotiate with Israel and that they have recognized Israels right to exist? That Palestinian leadership has not constantly called for violence against Israelis? That often their demands was for the elimination of Israel as a state, or demands that would essentially bring the end of the state of Israel?

When you have a group of people that have never stopped promising violence against you, why would you want to empower them by giving them their own state right next you and allowing them to build up a military when they have a history of encouraging your neighbors to attack you?

So you bet, I think the Palestinians have been part of the problem. I have always said that their violent methods and threats have hurt their cause more than it has helped them.

I wonder where you learnt history.

When Palestine was under the rule of the Ottoman empire, muslims, christians and jews lived together in peace.

That is like saying that black people lived together in peace with white people in Alabama in 1950. True peace means living together as equals, not as second class citizens.

And if you were taught that they lived together in peace and harmony and equality then you were taught incorrectly.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

the Zionists are already making life hell for the Palestinians without even owning the land. They are already taking from and destroying their crops and olive trees (their livelihood). I'd hate to see what they would do to the Palestinians/their lifestyle if they had the legal right.

2 state solution. my foot.

 

[-Fallen Angel-]

That is like saying that black people lived together in peace with white people in Alabama in 1950. True peace means living together as equals, not as second class citizens.
And if you were taught that they lived together in peace and harmony and equality then you were taught incorrectly.

Think back to the crusades era, such as the ~12th century where Jerusalem was under christian control and they killed Muslims, but when it was reclaimed by Muslims, everyone (Jew, Christian, Muslim) lived peacefully. Coming back to the modern age, there is no problem if Jews want to claim Israel as their own, this is God's world and nobody has an issue with that, but where there problem lies is the fact that they are kicking out Palestinians from their homeland, after stealing it. If i came to your house now and kicked you out and made it mine, what would you to?...
It's the Zealot Christians (and Zionist Jews) who've always sparked rows.. I admit there are some idiotic Muslims too (Eg. individuals in Hamas) but most of the time they fight to protect their land which was stolen from them and to protect the people, obviously that's misportrayed by the media and we see it as otherwise.

 

[titus]

Think back to the crusades era, such as the ~12th century where Jerusalem was under christian control and they killed Muslims, but when it was reclaimed by Muslims, everyone (Jew, Christian, Muslim) lived peacefully.

They lived together, true. But it was with Muslims in power and the others as second class citizens.

 

[جوري]

They lived together, true. But it was with Muslims in power and the others as second class citizens.

It is amazing, to live as a second class citizen for instance after being exiled from Spain, and still under Muslim rule be able to write books mocking Muslims, such as was the case with the Jewish scholar Maimonides and yet live not only unharmed but honored in the midst!

curious indeed.. I like that kind of 2nd class citizenship!

 

[titus]

I don't understand how Muslims can continuously bring up Maimonides as a sign of their tolerance when he was exiled by Muslims for being a Jew (the Jews were told by the Muslim leaders to either convert, leave or be killed. What compassion). It is a great example, though, of the "peaceful coexistence" that so many have in their head that did not exist.

History is useless if you ignore the parts that make you uncomfortable.

 

[Grace Seeker]

It is amazing, to live as a second class citizen for instance after being exiled from Spain, and still under Muslim rule be able to write books mocking Muslims, such as was the case with the Jewish scholar Maimonides and yet live not only unharmed but honored in the midst!

curious indeed.. I like that kind of 2nd class citizenship!

If Maimonides could write books mocking Muslims and yet live not only unharmed but honored, why is it that the Muslim community today hasn't shown the same degree of tolerance for people like Salman Rushdie, Jerry Falwell, Taslima Nasreen, and Raheel Raza? Are they so much worse than Maimonides?

 

[جوري]

If Maimonides could write books mocking Muslims and yet live not only unharmed but honored, why is it that the Muslim community today hasn't shown the same degree of tolerance for people like Salman Rushdie, Jerry Falwell, Taslima Nasreen, and Raheel Raza? Are they so much worse than Maimonides?

You'll have to ask the community you speak of.. btw I love how you stick Jerry Falwell in there, perhaps you're getting your trolls mixed up again?.. maybe you should up the dose on your meds to clear the events in your memory..

all the best

 

[جوري]

I don't understand how Muslims can continuously bring up Maimonides as a sign of their tolerance when he was exiled by Muslims for being a Jew (the Jews were told by the Muslim leaders to either convert, leave or be killed. What compassion). It is a great example, though, of the "peaceful coexistence" that so many have in their head that did not exist.

History is useless if you ignore the parts that make you uncomfortable.

Really he was exiled by Muslims? he didn't sit their in their midst writing 'Zhamm abna'a Ishmael'
history is indeed useless if colored to fit a political agenda!

all the best

 

[جوري]

maybe books are going out of style I don't know..

 

[titus]

Really he was exiled by Muslims? he didn't sit their in their midst writing 'Zhamm abna'a Ishmael'
history is indeed useless if colored to fit a political agenda!

all the best

Yes he was exiled and threatened with death, as were all the Jews where he lived, by the Muslim rulers. Since you seem unaware of this I suggest you read up on it.

 

[جوري]

maybe books are going out of style I don't know..

Yes he was exiled and threatened with death, as were all the Jews where he lived, by the Muslim rulers. Since you seem unaware of this I suggest you read up on it.

I suggest you try more books and less bull!

all the best

 

[titus]

Since I don't want to ruin the ending for you please answer me this:

Who exiled him and who threatened the jews of his area with conversion, death or exile?

Look it up and let me know what you find.

 

[جوري]

Since I don't want to ruin the ending for you please answer me this:

Who exiled him and who threatened the jews of his area with conversion, death or exile?

Look it up and let me know what you find.

I am pretty sure wikipedia has the answer for that, but let me ask you this, after his exile, where did he settle?

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

You'll have to ask the community you speak of..

So, are you suggesting that I need to be more careful in to not view the Ummah as a whole, but rather as a collection of seperate communities? I could see how this might be so, but I didn't think that Muslims took that view. Perhaps I need to ask this question in another thread, but I am curious, what is the basic structural unit in Islamic society: the individual follower?, the family unit?, one's local masjid?, or the entire Ummah?

btw I love how you stick Jerry Falwell in there, perhaps you're getting your trolls mixed up again?

I included Falwell because, just like all the others I named, he was threatened with violence from members of the Ummah for what he said. Back in 2002, following an appearance by Falwell on 60 Minutes in he publically said, "I think Muhammad was a terrorist... he was a violent man, a man of war." Not surprising, this brought about refutations from Muslims around the world. But Ali Khamenei went so far as to issue a fatwa calling for Falwell's murder, saying that Falwell was a "mercenary and must be killed. The death of that man is a religious duty."

.. maybe you should up the dose on your meds to clear the events in your memory..

Not funny. I know you have no reason to be aware of my own present health concerns, so I know you were not making a jab at what I am actually going through at this point in my life. But, even still, as a health care professional, I would hope you would be more sensitive to the realities that people genuinely have to deal with in life and not use it as fodder for jokes and personal attacks.

You continue to wish me "all the best" at the close of each post. But comments like the above cause me to wonder if they are just words. Do you really mean it? I will tell you that we may have our theological (probably even political) disagreements, but I am sincere when I wish you well. قد توفر لك الله التوجيه ويرزقك نعمته.

 

[جوري]

So, are you suggesting that I need to be more careful in to not view the Ummah as a whole, but rather as a collection of seperate communities? I could see how this might be so, but I didn't think that Muslims took that view. Perhaps I need to ask this question in another thread, but I am curious, what is the basic structural unit in Islamic society: the individual follower?, the family unit?, one's local masjid?, or the entire Ummah?

The answer is really quite simple, is there a unified 'Muslim ummah' currently in existence? I am sure most would argue that the last of the ummahs dissolved with the dissolution of the Ottoman's!

I included Falwell because, just like all the others I named, he was threatened with violence from members of the Ummah for what he said. Back in 2002, following an appearance by Falwell on 60 Minutes in he publically said, "I think Muhammad was a terrorist... he was a violent man, a man of war." Not surprising, this brought about refutations from Muslims around the world. But Ali Khamenei went so far as to issue a fatwa calling for Falwell's murder, saying that Falwell was a "mercenary and must be killed. The death of that man is a religious duty."

Is Khomeni (a shiite) which I am pretty sure you are aware represent less than 10% of the Muslim world a representative of the Ummah? btw I find many similarities between you and falwell, perhaps you'd like to take over his legacy now that he alas met with his maker naturally and without the threat of a fatwa!

all the best

 

[titus]

I am pretty sure wikipedia has the answer for that, but let me ask you this, after his exile, where did he settle?

Since refuse to answer the question I will answer it for you. He, his family, and all the Jews were told to leave, convert or die by their Muslim rulers.

After leaving his choices were pretty simple. Either Christian Europe, in which Jews were persecuted horribly, or another Muslim land in which Jews were merely looked down upon as second class citizens. He chose the lesser of the two evils.

Now if his choices had been between Egypt of the 12th century or Europe of the 21st century which do you think he would have chosen? Based on the way that Jews are treated the answer would most likely be modern Europe.

Take a look at the text you posted and look at the ambiguity. He is saying that his current Muslim rulers gave the Jews some autonomy while the Christian rulers gave them none. That is a far cry from any form equality. Sure, Muslim lands were, on the whole, more tolerant than Christian nations at the time but it was a harmony based on Muslim power and non-Muslim second class citizenship with religious minorities having little or no better options.