Frustrations in getting married

Care to actually address the point rather than jump the gun to moralize about something irrelevant. The same that I replied to Zaria goes for you.
 
Futuwwa said:
Okay, nobody wanted to reply to my query in the abstract, so a direct example:

You have a daughter. A guy asks you for permission to court her. He is an upstanding, pious man as far as you can tell, but he's still studying. It will be at least a few years before he is done studying and can assume a full-time job matching his qualifications. In the meantime he's barely capable of supporting himself, certainly not another person too on top of that.

Would you allow him to court your daughter?
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My cousin got married when he was still study in university. He's a good looking guy. He meet his wife when they were active in a muslim organization in campus. Attracted to each other and decided to get married because they didn't want to fall into pre-marital relationship. They lived with financial support from parents. Now he has become regional manager in a big company, and rich.
 
ardianto, would you endorse a similar arrangement for your children if they wanted to?
 
WS my frustration is in getting married is that Im single and I got the feeling because Im far from Wealthy/Rich that I can't or won't be able to please tell me this view is wrong in Islam thank you ?
 
Futuwwa said:
Care to actually address the point rather than jump the gun to moralize about something irrelevant. The same that I replied to Zaria goes for you.
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Considering that your post comes right after mine, I think it's not too absurd to assume that you are addressing me in your post. So please fasten your seat belt and standby for some relevant points.

1. You said, in your hypothetical case, that the young man is still studying. So I said I would tell him to concentrate on his studies and come see me again when he is ready to support a wife. Now what's so moralizing about my reply? My answer is straight to the point. He is studying and therefore he should concentrate on his studies. Nothing to do with morals in that advice. Just simple sensible advice which I would give my own son if he's still studying and he comes to tell me that he wants to court someone else's daughter.

2. I said I have looked at the kitabs and I have asked the maulanas. Now what's so moralizing about my actions? I am a Muslim and I intend to practice Islam as best as I humanly can. This means that I refer to the teachings of Islam for guidance. Where do I find such guidance? In the kitabs. Is that enough, just to refer to the kitabs? No, to learn from the kitabs without a teacher is to learn from shaitan. So I ask the maulanas. That's the recommended way to learn. Does my action of looking things up in the kitabs and asking the maulanas not sit well with your weltanschauung of what life as a Muslim should be, so much so that you call it moralizing?

3. Now for the really immoral part. What is being immoral? Not being moral, of course. What is being moral in Islam? Segregation of the sexes who are not mahram or muhrim, depending on how you want to spell it. Of course, morality in Islam covers a lot more than just that but that aspect will suffice for the purpose of this discussion. So where is the morality of a man who wants to court a girl? Does it make any difference that he is upstanding? Upstanding doesn't make him a muhrim of the girl. Does it make any difference that he is pious? Pious does not make him a muhrim of the girl. Does it make any difference that he asks the father for permission? Asking for permission does not make him a muhrim of the girl. In short, that young man in your hypothetical case is intending to do something which is not allowed in Islam.

4. Did I mention that I am talking about Islam? Islam is not some wishy-washy kind of religion that you can modify and revise as you see fit. Don't tell me that men today are different from men 1,500 years ago. 1,500 years ago, men get an erection when they are excited by women. Today, they still do. 1,500 years ago, women get pregnant. Today they still do. The teachings of Islam with regards to the segregation of sexes are as applicable today as they were 1,500 years ago. Is that too obtuse to make sense?

Alright, you can unfasten your seat belt now. I will crawl back under my rock and make myself some sha'i wal halib.
 
Futuwwa said:
ardianto, would you endorse a similar arrangement for your children if they wanted to?
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Yaaaahh ..... I think I will let them to get married.

Actually my cousin was getting married first, and telling the parent later after his wife got pregnant. :D

He studied in another city while his parent were in the hometown. His parent expected him to finish stufy first, get a job, then get married. But in campus he meet a good looking girl from strict religious family. They attracted to each other. The girl told her parent, and they got married immediately in nikah siri (nikah in accordance to Islamic law but not registered in state sharia office)

My cousin told the parent later because he knew his parent would prevent him to get married before finish study and get a job. While the girl parents who are from strict religious background were thinking differently.

His parents were angry, of course. But they understood. Then my cousin and his wife repeat the nikah procedure in sharia office and register their marriage.

By the way, nikah siri while still study is common enough among Muslim activists in my place. They are thinking differently, it's better getting married while still study than have girlfriend/boyfriend.
 
I would advise you to not worry about being rich. Choose a career that you were born harboring a passion for. Choose a career that creates something and helps your brothers and sisters in humanity.

The rich part takes care of itself then.
 
I often wonder why there are men who think they cannot get married because they are not rich. I live in a country where many people are living in poverty, and ..... they are married.
 
Ali Mujahidin said:
Considering that your post comes right after mine, I think it's not too absurd to assume that you are addressing me in your post. So please fasten your seat belt and standby for some relevant points.

1. You said, in your hypothetical case, that the young man is still studying. So I said I would tell him to concentrate on his studies and come see me again when he is ready to support a wife. Now what's so moralizing about my reply? My answer is straight to the point. He is studying and therefore he should concentrate on his studies. Nothing to do with morals in that advice. Just simple sensible advice which I would give my own son if he's still studying and he comes to tell me that he wants to court someone else's daughter.
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This thread is about the difficulties in getting married. My post was about the problem in contemporary society that men tend to achieve economic independence at a fairly high age, especially if they are going for higher education. In the age of the sahaba, and in the great majority of the history of humanity, it was different. There was not much of an age gap between reaching sexual maturity and economic independence. Nowadays there is.

This has to do with economical eligibility for marriage, not with what the halal way to find a wife is.

Should we deny our sons half their deen simply because the socioeconomic structure of modern society is such that they won't be able to be providers as early as they could have during the majority of the history of Islam? Should we expect our daughters to either marry someone older than them or wait for just as long as our sons? Apparently you think we should.
 
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I believe ppl should marry young. The Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم married at the age of 25. Most guys will have completed their education by that age and have a job with a moderate pay. They should be able to marry and support their wives with their salaries and may also be helped by parents by being allowed to live in the same house as parents or rent a bigger house with their parents and so share rent. The newly wed couple can live economically and avoid luxuries, not just because their income is less but also because luxurious living is disliked. The wife can work in the early years of marriage before she has children and help the husband with living expenses. Anything she gives to her husband is her sadaqa and she earns rewards for it. Of course family shouldn't be put off and the couple should try to have children. While a big family is preferred, they should have so many children that they can give proper attention to and raise with the Islamic manners. Some people have many children but their children are bad-mannered, and so that becomes a bigger problem for society.
 
WRITER said:
I believe ppl should marry young. The Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم married at the age of 25. Most guys will have completed their education by that age and have a job with a moderate pay. They should be able to marry and support their wives with their salaries and may also be helped by parents by being allowed to live in the same house as parents or rent a bigger house with their parents and so share rent. The newly wed couple can live economically and avoid luxuries, not just because their income is less but also because luxurious living is disliked. The wife can work in the early years of marriage before she has children and help the husband with living expenses. Anything she gives to her husband is her sadaqa and she earns rewards for it. Of course family shouldn't be put off and the couple should try to have children. While a big family is preferred, they should have so many children that they can give proper attention to and raise with the Islamic manners. Some people have many children but their children are bad-mannered, and so that becomes a bigger problem for society.
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25 is a relatively high age, looking at the entirety of history. What about marrying at the age of 20?

A couple should probably delay having children until they have achieved a measure of economic independence, but why not marry way before?

Let's say I have a daughter. She is 20. A guy who also is 20 proposes marriage to her. Should I tell him to get lost and return when he's 25 and has an income? Then I'll have to provide for my daughter during that time anyway, so what's the difference between doing that and between letting them marry and provide for my daughter until his husband begins earning? The expense is the same to me anyway, and the young uns get 5 more years of the bliss and the blessings of marriage.
 
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Amat Allah said:
Wa Alikum Assalaam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh

why not being married till this moment?

cause the time of the one whom Allah had written for me didn`t come yet or maybe there is none for me ...Allah knows...and I am happy no matter what Alhamdulilah , cause I believe that whatever Allah had written for me is the best and it will be the best forever...All Praise, Thanks and Glory be to Allah ...

May Allah grant all the Muslims in this world his/her perfect match and if not in this world then in Al Firdaws which I am beging Allah to have mercy on us and make us enter it without being reckoning...Ameeeeeeeeen
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^^This is about as good an answer as you can get.


And just for the record, having a degree is overrated.. If that's part of your career than so be it but, people shouldn't feel pressured into getting one as a prerequisite for marriage or believing they will live a rich and successful life. Yes religion comes first but, apparently having a degree of some kind is important to a lot of dads looking to marry off their daughter. This is coming from a dirty blue collar worker who makes a comfortable living alhamdulillah. I can understand if a woman wants to get married to someone who shares the same interest/field of study but this is more specific to the dads out there that want their daughter to marry an engineer/surgeon :exhausted
 
Futuwwa said:
Should we deny our sons half their deen simply because the socioeconomic structure of modern society is such that they won't be able to be providers as early as they could have during the majority of the history of Islam? Should we expect our daughters to either marry someone older than them or wait for just as long as our sons? Apparently you think we should.
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Yes, I do think that we should. And I am not saying this just for the sake of presenting another viewpoint. I earnestly believe and stand by what I say. Let's look a bit closer at my stand.

Let's talk about that hypothetical young man you mentioned.

First, he's studying. By studying I assume he's equipping himself with knowledge to make a living when he graduates. Now what's the best way to excel in your studies? Concentrate, my good man, concentrate your studies. Think of nothing but your studies. Don't let anything distract you from your main purpose in life at that point in your life which is to study and to do well in your studies.

Actually, if the hypothetical young man had been concentrating on his studies, I don't see how he would have noticed that there are any attractive women around him. He would have no eyes for anything but his books. Is that healthy? Of course, it is. Education used to be free but now it costs a hand and a leg plus an assortment of other bodily parts to send a child through university. So there's a lot of hard-earned money invested in the young man. Hard-earned money that came from the blood, sweat and tears of his parents who loved him and wanted the best for him.

So what's the best thing that this young man can do to repay his parents for their trust and hope and love for him? Study hard. Concentrate on his studies. Do well in his studies. Nay, don't just do well. Do very, very well in his studies. Then when he has completed his studies, he can think about getting married. I am very sure that if he has done very well in his studies, he would have no problems in getting married. I am serious. Any family who looks forward to having their grandchildren grow up in a comfortable and stable home would see very few problems in letting their daughter get married to a young man who has done very well in his studies.

Did I keep saying young man? Oh yes, so I did. Now at what age do you finish university? In Thailand, you can graduate with a bachelor's degree as young as 22. In Malaysia, if all goes well, you would graduate at about that age, too. Is 22 or even 25 a very advanced age? I don't think so. A man of 22 or even 25 is still a young man. He is in the prime of his life. Strong, healthy and, most important, with a bit more maturity than a kid of 18.

Now what's this thing about denying the young man half his deen? What's there to talk about that half of his deen when he hasn't even got his own half set up correctly? Let's be honest. What's a husband? A half-grown kid who needs a woman to keep him on the right path of Islam, to keep him from indulging in zina? Or a grown man who can be a leader to a woman who agrees to be his wife and to be the mother of his children?
 
Futuwwa said:
25 is a relatively high age, looking at the entirety of history. What about marrying at the age of 20?

A couple should probably delay having children until they have achieved a measure of economic independence, but why not marry way before?

Let's say I have a daughter. She is 20. A guy who also is 20 proposes marriage to her. Should I tell him to get lost and return when he's 25 and has an income? Then I'll have to provide for my daughter during that time anyway, so what's the difference between doing that and between letting them marry and provide for my daughter until his husband begins earning? The expense is the same to me anyway, and the young uns get 5 more years of the bliss and the blessings of marriage.
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I would highly advise not to set a goal on when to be married. Allah will introduce us to the right life time partner on His time. You'll know, too.

I didn't get married until 30. (Admittedly, there were several prospeat who wouldn't put up with me). I have been with my wife for over 16 years now. She is better than this human deserves. Thank God I waited until I KNEW it was right.

I am a very blessed man who continues to love his spouse more each and every day.

In short, wed the right person, not the right date.
 
GodIsAll said:
I would highly advise not to set a goal on when to be married. Allah will introduce us to the right life time partner on His time. You'll know, too.
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We should not set a goal in which age we will be married. We should get married in the right time after we meet the right person.
 
GodIsAll said:
I would highly advise not to set a goal on when to be married. Allah will introduce us to the right life time partner on His time. You'll know, too.
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I'm not talking about having a target age for marriage, but about marrying young in case you already happen to find the right person early on, rather than holding off the marriage for years upon years for whatever reason.
 
Futuwwa said:
I'm not talking about having a target age for marriage, but about marrying young in case you already happen to find the right person early on, rather than holding off the marriage for years upon years for whatever reason.
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Sure! If your life partner is given to you at a young age, don't wait! :)
 
GodIsAll said:
In short, wed the right person, not the right date.
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I was a good looking middle class man when I was young. Of course it made knew women from various character and personalities.

Okay, based on my experience, I will tell the difference between the right date and the right person.

The right date look at your handsomeness and/or richness, she will come to you when she sees you are handsome and/or rich. The right person look at your character and personality, she will accept you if she sure you can respect and appreciate her.

Do not thinking if you are handsome or rich you can get someone easily because if you think like this, you would get the wrong person. Also do not thinking that if you are not handsome or rich you would never get someone. The right person just expect you treat her well and respectfully.

Avoid someone who praise your handsomeness or richness. The right person will praise your look or your financial success after she is with you, not before!. Also avoid someone who tell you that she would marry you if you could give her something, like house or car.

How to know if someone is the right person?

Do not look at her beauty, but look at her character and personality. Notice how she treat other people. If she always treat other people well and respectfully, she could be a right person. Do not notice only her attitude that she show toward you. It because if a woman interested to you she would try to always look good in your eyes, and it could be fake.

I don't say the beautiful women are bad. I have meet many many beautiful women who are good in character and personalities, such as my friends wives or sisters. But some of beautiful women who I have ever meet, ...... yaaaah.

So, do not focus only to beauty. It's better you marry a woman who is not physically beautiful but can make you feel respected and appreciated than marry a woman who is beautiful but will make you feel uncomfortable. If you feel comfortable with your wife, you would always happy when you see her although she's not physically beautiful.

And how to find the right person?

Always treat other people well and respectfully regardless of social status or physical beauty. So, even if you are not handsome or not rich, there's will be someone who will consider you as the right person. If not this woman herself, someone near this woman that will bring you to her.
 

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