FBI
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But u see I can't get my head around that, And I'm a man of faith, why do we need Jesus as our only hope when god is their surely our salvation lies with the creator and not the creation?
Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?
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barney
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He totally made us sinful. "Let those without sin..etc". Evry denomination I know of has Penal substitution as a core value. I know it was invented in the 12th century, but Catholics, Protestants and Baptists and every other one that I've heard of, all say that Jesus died on the cross to atone for our sins.
Without this as a framework, theres no reason why Jesus would have let himself be killed, if he was indeed God, and the scriptures, (heavily interpreted and changed as they are from century to century) would not have evolved that way.
The Idea of dying to save us is the core value of every Christian denomination I know of.
You know pefectly well which one I meant.You are right I should be made to give references. Is there any one in particular you want. It is a lot of work to find what i already know about what is written in the Bible; nevertheless, references will be given apon request. You have already asked me to cite the references on the deity of Jesus and His claims to being God, but you stop responding to that post after I gave the references. If Jesus didn't die and rise from the dead like all the eye witnesses claim, then us Christians are the most miserable people in the world. But if He did, there is going to be a great and terrible day of the Lord for the non-believer and those who don't believe He died and rose again or that he is the Son of God.Originally Posted by NoName55
NO
WaSalaam
you should be made to give a refence for every claim you make
Besides I was trying to hint to site staff.
I have already admitted in past that you are far too crafty for me to talk to, for you are a master at confusing the issues as well as changing subjects at hand. And devlishly clever, If all else fails you start rambling and preaching or feigning hurt feelings
Wa-salaam
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*Hana*
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Go back and read what I wrote a few posts ago. People saw him because he wasn't dead. Well, AFTER he removed his gardeners disguise, then they saw him. He was so well disguised as a gardener that even Mary didn't know it was him. Amazing. Which raises the question: If he was spiritually resurrected who exactly was he hiding from and why? :?
Peace,
Hana
snakelegs
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no need to explain it IF you are a christian and believe in the new testament.
if not, there is also no need to explain it because there is no need to believe it in the first place.
barney
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Of Course Jesus Existed! He was recorded in the history of the Roman Empire.
If the romans , who beleived in Mars (the god not the chocalate) wrote that he existed then thats good enough for me. They have no spatum to grind on the subject.
The question is ...did he rise from the dead? Well loads of people saw him die, thats fair enough and well recorded. rising from the dead? Not so much.
I'm sure that his -may i say- biased and zelotic diciples who's lives were pretty much stuffed after his death , needed a way to carry on the faith. And God dying kind of deflates the balloon a little. God wouldnt just die. that goes against the whole laws of godhead. (Although the Jap's and egyptians got on OK with their Gods repeatedly karking every 50 years or less), times change and gullibillity fades with mans proggression.
In 2001 there was a good many Muslims who reported emphatically that spiders the size of sofas had been sent by Allah, to fight alongside them to defend Kandahar from the Infidel. they had "hairy Legs and were filmed on TV". It's a Miracle. Despite Kandahar falling faster than a stunned duck, this beleif is still current amongst a proportion of those who heard the rumour.
Once a rumour hits critical mass, escpecially if it's unprovable, it can cement into History as fact. In 2300AD you can expect to see the Tsunami of '05 being historically recorded as caused by American nukes. It all depends on the demographics of the times and History is infinatly rewritable. Holocaust Denial anyone?
:rollseyes
akulion
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Well quite frankly I think the devil never really pulled any great tricks at all...in fact he is a down right daft idiot to have lived in heaven yet rebel against God.
The devil aside, its quite common to see people worshiping worldly stuff.
Like the Hindus started worshiping: Men, women, cows, snakes, rats, elephants
Idalators: Idols of all kinds and shapes
Then there are your average fire worshipers, sun worshipers etc etc.
To me, not saying it offensively, but to me Christians are just another class of those people and worship a Man.
I mean after all you can put great elaborate stories about any sort of worldly thing.
Like I could make up a story of the Holy cow who died for humanities sins and suffered on the farmyard...but at the end of the day we have to open our eyes and see the reality. That its a cow. It aint god, it aint the incarnation of god, it was just a cow
So Jesus was just a man. A prophet at the most. and really to say otherwise is just silly in my view because otherwise this guy who cliams to be God could very well be right too:
Ref: Sai Baba - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba
No offense to anyone, but this is how I see it really. Just man worship..nothing else
God or man...u decide...
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The devil aside, its quite common to see people worshiping worldly stuff.
Like the Hindus started worshiping: Men, women, cows, snakes, rats, elephants
Idalators: Idols of all kinds and shapes
Then there are your average fire worshipers, sun worshipers etc etc.
To me, not saying it offensively, but to me Christians are just another class of those people and worship a Man.
I mean after all you can put great elaborate stories about any sort of worldly thing.
Like I could make up a story of the Holy cow who died for humanities sins and suffered on the farmyard...but at the end of the day we have to open our eyes and see the reality. That its a cow. It aint god, it aint the incarnation of god, it was just a cow
So Jesus was just a man. A prophet at the most. and really to say otherwise is just silly in my view because otherwise this guy who cliams to be God could very well be right too:
Ref: Sai Baba - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba
No offense to anyone, but this is how I see it really. Just man worship..nothing else
God or man...u decide...
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Redeemed
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What makes you think that Jesus was created? It is written " In the beginning was the word. the word was with God, and the word was God." There was never a time God was without His word. The Word became flesh (God with us). His name will be called Immanuel (God with us)
Maybe your thinking of a verse that says He is the "beginning of the creation of God." If you do a lexical study on that in the original text. It renders that He is the beginner of the beginning of creation. It is written "Everything that was made was made by Him and for Him. (Notice "For Him") and everything is held together by the word of His power. It is written that Allah will judge no one only Jesus will; moreover, we must honor the Son the same as the Father (Allah) for he that honors not the Son honors not the Allah. That means if we don't honor Jesus in the same way as Allah we aren't honoring God. Jn 5: 22
akulion
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PBUH = Peace Be Upon Him
*Hana*
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Peace to you, Doug:
I would be more than happy to respond to your questions but I would appreciate you or another christian, if you don't know the answer, to show me the same courtesy.
Jesus, pbuh IS the Messiah (it simply means the annointed/chosen one). When He returns, not everyone will be killed (there was a recent post about this for more detail), but He will live a normal life, marry, will die a natural death, be buried along side Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, and will be resurrected at the chosen time like everyone else.
ok, that was extremely brief, but you will find more information about that if you search the forum.
Peace,
Hana
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 600:
Narrated Anas:
I heard the Prophet saying, "On the Day of Resurrection I will intercede and say, "O my Lord! Admit into Paradise (even) those who have faith equal to a mustard seed in their hearts." Such people will enter Paradise, and then I will say, 'O (Allah) admit into Paradise (even) those who have the least amount of faith in their hearts." Anas then said: As if I were just now looking at the fingers of Allah's Apostle.
Is this quote from the Hadith not an indication that many will require the intercession of another to enter paradise? Is this prophet not part of the creation? Is he not in fact their implied only hope for salvation in that they require intercession?
What benefit does the prophet get when a Muslim follows their name with (pbuh)?
*Hana*
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Was Jesus, pbuh, born of a Virgin mother? Did God simply say "be" and He was? This means He was CREATED! The text I bolded was not found in the oldest manuscripts which means it was an interpolation that came much later. This is agreed by most prominent Biblical Scholars and the "correction" is noted in the footnotes of the most recent versions.
This really doesn't mean much, quite frankly. First, we've already dismissed the "in the beginning...." portion as we know it was not part of the oldest manuscripts. The rest is just your interpretation of text.
Still waiting for an answer to my 2 questions.
Peace,
Hana
Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
Tu kaun hai paiiii?
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Wouldnt u say something along the lines of "May God help you" or May God have mercy on your soul" out of respect for someone? Would u not send your blessings on someone dear to u or whom u look upto?
Redeemed
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[/QUOTE=Hana_Aku;708214]Go back and read what I wrote a few posts ago. People saw him because he wasn't dead. Well, AFTER he removed his gardeners disguise, then they saw him. He was so well disguised as a gardener that even Mary didn't know it was him. Amazing. Which raises the question: If he was spiritually resurrected who exactly was he hiding from and why? :?
Peace,
Hana[/QUOTE]
That is a very creative way of trying to do away with the death and ressurection of Jesus, but His death was witnessed and so was His resurrection and assencion. People are going throuh a lot of trouble to explain away His death and the taking back of His life. If He didn't rise from the dead, I would either be an agnostic or Muslim. I would just enjoy the pleasures of sin, but that is not the case. There will be a day of accountability. That is what people don't like to hear. John saw Jesus in a revelation. Jesus' hair was white as wool and His eyes a flame of fire. He said "Fear not, I am He who was dead and now I am alive forever more. I have the keys sto hell and death. I come to judge the living and the dead" Reference is in the book of Revelation.........
Peace,
Hana[/QUOTE]
That is a very creative way of trying to do away with the death and ressurection of Jesus, but His death was witnessed and so was His resurrection and assencion. People are going throuh a lot of trouble to explain away His death and the taking back of His life. If He didn't rise from the dead, I would either be an agnostic or Muslim. I would just enjoy the pleasures of sin, but that is not the case. There will be a day of accountability. That is what people don't like to hear. John saw Jesus in a revelation. Jesus' hair was white as wool and His eyes a flame of fire. He said "Fear not, I am He who was dead and now I am alive forever more. I have the keys sto hell and death. I come to judge the living and the dead" Reference is in the book of Revelation.........
I presume you were wanting me to answer your question about Jesus spiritual ressurection. Well, I believe that Jesus was physically resurrected for His appearances to many witnesses. But His spiritual resurrection was the same as those who are living on the last day will experience.
1 cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The dead shall be raised, the living will be changed from physical to spiritual existance in the twinkling of an eye.
Actually, I wouldn't say it unless I felt that it was an intercessory prayer for someone whose eternal destiny was undecided, and if I felt that it would alter the persons eternal destiny. As a Christian, I feel that one's eternal destiny is set prior to death, and nothing can be done to change it following death.
Jn 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
*Hana*
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And you are trying to skirt the issue.
It's no trouble at all to dismiss the resurrection. There is simply no proof. Can you provide ONE historical account from a non-Christian that discussed the resurrection? How about ONE person that talked about all the supposed dead bodies rising from the earth and walking through the streets? There are many non Christian writers that have written about Jesus, pbuh, and not ONE talks about this resurrection or rotting corpses walking the earth. What makes you think Muslims enjoy the pleasures of sin? We don't believe a man was unjustly tortured, brutalized, humiliated and slaughtered so we would have a free ticket to sin. No, not at all. We are held accountable for our sins and can't pawn them off on an innocent man. And still you have not answered the question. I would appreciate it if you would.
Hana
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