Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

[dougmusr]

But, I do know that if we see a disagreement in thought or opinion between the Qur'an and the Authentic Ahadith, it means we are misunderstanding one or both. In the event of a misunderstanding on our part, it is best to follow what the Qur'an says and then try to understand how the Ahadith applies to that, not to make the Qur'an apply to our interpretation of the Ahadith. There will be no difference of truth between the Qur'an and the True Ahadith. If we see a difference, we are not understanding the Ahadith.

I understand Muslims feel that Bible is full of errors and contradictions and I don't claim to be able to refute them all. I do think that when a Muslim claims that The Quran is God's final revelation to all mankind, it is a bit strange that God revealed it in such a way that it and the Hadith require a science in order to reconcile the inconsistancies, something that all mankind is apparently unable to do without a scientist in interpretation.

 

[barney]

I understand Muslims feel that Bible is full of errors and contradictions and I don't claim to be able to refute them all. I do think that when a Muslim claims that The Quran is God's final revelation to all mankind, it is a bit strange that God revealed it in such a way that it and the Hadith require a science in order to reconcile the inconsistancies, something that all mankind is apparently unable to do without a scientist in interpretation.

The "scientists" cant agree on whats abrogated. If they could then it would be terribly clear. Thats the whole problem!

 

[Alexius]

He totally made us sinful. "Let those without sin..etc". Evry denomination I know of has Penal substitution as a core value. I know it was invented in the 12th century, but Catholics, Protestants and Baptists and every other one that I've heard of, all say that Jesus died on the cross to atone for our sins.

Without this as a framework, theres no reason why Jesus would have let himself be killed, if he was indeed God, and the scriptures, (heavily interpreted and changed as they are from century to century) would not have evolved that way.

The Idea of dying to save us is the core value of every Christian denomination I know of.

First of all, I have no clue what you are quoting from and second of all, not all "denominations" subscribe to this teaching. For instance, Eastern Orthodox do not accept the teaching of Penal Substitution. Instead, they subscribe to the ancient doctrine of Christus Victor, where Christ is a conqueror of sin and death. This is the view I accept. Christ still died to atone for our sins, just as in ancient Judaism, an animal sacrifice was necessary for the atonement of sins. That is no different. The concepts behind it, however, are.

Again, God created man "good." Scripture is clear about this point...

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:thumbs_up

 

[*Hana*]

alapiana1;708359
Whenever I don't answer a question, please restate it, because it is hard to find it through all this dialogue.

I think it's easier for you to scroll back than for me to ask repeatedly.

Next topic, you don't understand Christianity

Please don't assume to know the depth of my understanding about christianity simply because it doesn't agree with you. It is because of my education and understanding that I became a Muslim. So, perhaps it is you that does not yet understand???

when you say that we can sin and just pawn it off on an innocent man. It is the goodness of the Lord that leads man to repentance. That means Christians are supposed to turn from sin and be perfect like their heavenly Father.

We are creations not the creator. We can never be perfect and only an unjust God would expect us to be perfect. if that were the case...why repent? Why have a saviour? Why be concerned about salvation? God is the ONLY one worthy of worship and more than capable of forgiving sin on His own.

God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man sows so shall he reap. We are all according to the Bible guilty of sin.

How can you be guilty of sin when you just said you have to be perfect. How cruel?? A God that would create you imperfect and expect you to be perfect. Very cruel and totally unjust.

It is written "There is none righteous, no not one... the penalty for that sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life... even to those who believe on His name." It is like being guilty of a crime and going before the judge without an advocate and just the prosecuting attorney (the devil). We wouldn't stand a chance.

Interesting that you choose to quote Paul rather than Jesus, pbuh. As you know Jesus, pbuh, said, "The disciple is not above the teacher..." (Luke 6:40)

Why don't you quote what Jesus, pbuh said? I'm sure you know the verse I am referring to.

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance” (Mark 2:16-17).

Are you really willing to tell Jesus, pbuh, that He is wrong and Paul is correct? Jesus, pbuh, clearly said he came only for the LOST sheep of Israel....not ALL the sheep. Obviously there were many that were righteous and did not need His teachings. Why would Jesus, pbuh, feel the need to reiterate here that he did not come to call the RIGHTEOUS, but ONLY sinners?

As the saying goes: You can follow Christ or you can follow Paul, but you cannot follow both at the same time.

Hana

 

[Alexius]

How can you be guilty of sin when you just said you have to be perfect. How cruel?? A God that would create you imperfect and expect you to be perfect. Very cruel and totally unjust.



Hana

I believe each person is responsible for his own personal sins...Those are what must be atoned for...So once a person sins, he is guilty of that sin.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:statisfie

 

[*Hana*]

I believe each person is responsible for his own personal sins...Those are what must be atoned for...So once a person sins, he is guilty of that sin.

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:statisfie

We agree

Hana

ps: Doug, I was trying to answer your post but it's after 2:00am and my eyes are burning out of my head. lol Inshallah (God willing), I will respond tomorrow, ok?

Take care,
Hana

 

[snakelegs]

I of course understand this, and so your claim to live a sinless life full of excitement is by an agnostics definition of sin and excitement, which would be very different than what a religious person would mean by the same statement.

The one thing I think we can agree on is that we probably both know when we have been sinned against. Have you heard the song with the line "Hey, won't you play me a somebody did somebody wrong song"?.

did i say i live a sinless life full of excitement?
"sin" is not in my vocabulary. i have morals and ethics which guide the way i live, many of which are also promoted by religion.
when i used the word sin it was in reply to apiana who had used it.
:hiding:

 

[Woodrow]

I understand Muslims feel that Bible is full of errors and contradictions and I don't claim to be able to refute them all. I do think that when a Muslim claims that The Quran is God's final revelation to all mankind, it is a bit strange that God revealed it in such a way that it and the Hadith require a science in order to reconcile the inconsistancies, something that all mankind is apparently unable to do without a scientist in interpretation.

The difficulty is for a non-Muslim to understand the correlation between the Qur'an and the Ahadith.

Perhaps an analogy would help.

The Qur'an has nearly the same place to a Muslim as the Bible has to a Christian.

The Ahadith is a bit difficult to understand. In essence the Ahadith could be considered the legal and historical branch of Islam. It gives us the historical history of the early days of Islam from the time of Muhammad plus it contains all of the legalistic precedents for Shariah law. It is a very large collection of books and is an entire study in it's own right.

Islam goes much further then being a single focused religion, it is part of every aspect of a Muslim's life. We are directed to have every act and thought we do to be as an act of worship to Allah(swt). The Qur'an tells us why, and the Ahadith tells us how. No person could every live a perfect life and Allah(swt) only expects us to do to the best of our ability. For that the ahadith is our instructors.

Remember, Islam has no ordained clergy. The Ahadith is a portable seminary, historical and legalistic school we can all have at our finger tips. We each have access to learning the best means to practice our faith and we each have the information necessary to evaluate the teachings of all scholars.

We are each responsable for our own actions. If we are going to be responsable it only makes sense that we would be given adquate information to make informed decisions and to understand the implications of error.

Oddly, people can understand the need and justification to spend many years in school to grasp the fundamentals of a career. Yet, they fail to see that we all have one final career to become proficient in. Doesn't it make sense that we would also have the needed "text books" to achieve our credentials for that career? The wonder is Allah(swt) does not expect us to have the same criteria for a passing grade, the sincere desire and honest attempt to do the best we can is all that is needed to pass the final exam. But, we are responsible for using the right text books.

 

[barney]

First of all, I have no clue what you are quoting from and second of all, not all "denominations" subscribe to this teaching. For instance, Eastern Orthodox do not accept the teaching of Penal Substitution. Instead, they subscribe to the ancient doctrine of Christus Victor, where Christ is a conqueror of sin and death. This is the view I accept. Christ still died to atone for our sins, just as in ancient Judaism, an animal sacrifice was necessary for the atonement of sins. That is no different. The concepts behind it, however, are.

Again, God created man "good." Scripture is clear about this point...

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:thumbs_up

OK, i diddnt know about Eastern Ordhadoxy. Fair enough and thanks for that.

How does dying atone for our sins then? I've heard he "payed the price of sin for us", but i'm not actually getting that as a concept at all.

 

[*Hana*]

My apologies. Did you provide a Bible verse reference where Jesus indicated this so I can look at it?

Peace to you doug:

Remember how the Jews were always coming to Him with riddles to try to trick Jesus, pbuh. (ie: Matt. 22:17 asking about paying tribute to Ceasar, John 8:4, Mark 12:28, etc.). This was another one of those "riddles" for Jesus, pbuh.

Luke 20:27-36:

27 Then some of the Sadducees, who deny that there is a resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 28 saying: “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies, having a wife, and he dies without children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. And the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second[a] took her as wife, and he died childless. 31 Then the third took her, and in like manner the seven also; and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife.”
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

This is confirmed by simply looking at Lazareth's physical resurrection. He was not like the angels as he required food, drink, sleep, and I'm quite sure he is still not roaming the earth, which means he had to die again to be spiritually resurrected, which would be exactly the way Jesus, pbuh, said it would be.

Peace to you,
Hana

 

[*Hana*]

Peace Doug:

With reference to Isiaha 48:16. This verse in no way says anything about Jesus, pbuh. You are assuming such things. This is known as eisegesis, (reading one's own ideas into a text) There is no specific reference to anyone except God. Granted when it become common practice for the prophets to speak in the first person, (many examples of this are in the bible) along with God speaking in the first person, it can become confusing.

However, this still in no way, shape or forum claims divinity for Jesus, pbuh or any other person.

Just this one chapter alone (48) from verse 1, is a definite contradiction to itself IF what you are attempting to say were accurate. So, this poses another problem. Which is correct? Chapter 48 Verses 1-11 or your idea/interpretation of verse 16?

With peace,
Hana

 

[Alexius]

OK, i diddnt know about Eastern Ordhadoxy. Fair enough and thanks for that.

How does dying atone for our sins then? I've heard he "payed the price of sin for us", but i'm not actually getting that as a concept at all.

The penalty for sin is death. By dying on the cross, Christ payed that penalty for us. It was a ransom for our souls. What part of the concept don't you understand? I'll try to explain it better once I know...

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius :?

 

[*Hana*]

The penalty for sin is death. By dying on the cross, Christ payed that penalty for us. It was a ransom for our souls. What part of the concept don't you understand? I'll try to explain it better once I know...

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius :?

Peace to you Alexius:

I think the question is why? What would be the purpose in so much humiliation, suffering, torture, etc., when God, the creator of ALL things can simply forgive? Christians say Christ died on the cross so their sins could be forgiven...why and how? Particularly when the Bible is clear that sin cannot be inherited. God said He was not the author of confusion, but your very salvation has no logical explanation, and quite frankly, was not mentioned anywhere in the older manuscripts.

As you can see, it's the entire concept that doesn't make sense not just one specific area.

Peace,
Hana

 

[Woodrow]

The penalty for sin is death. By dying on the cross, Christ payed that penalty for us. It was a ransom for our souls. What part of the concept don't you understand? I'll try to explain it better once I know...

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius :?

Peace Alexius,

I can only find two flaws with that concept.

Flaw one is it removes people from accepting responsibility for their actions and places our just punishment upon an innocent person.

Flaw 2 is Isa(as) did not die on the cross.

4:156. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; S P C
4:157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- S P C

4:158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- S P C
4:159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

Also Jesus(as) Himself will bear witness against those who spread that blasphemy about him.

4:159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- S P C

 

[Redeemed]

Peace Alexius,

I can only find two flaws with that concept.

Flaw one is it removes people from accepting responsibility for their actions and places our just punishment upon an innocent person.

Flaw 2 is Isa(as) did not die on the cross.



Also Jesus(as) Himself will bear witness against those who spread that blasphemy about him.

4:159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- S P C

That's what the Jews did before Jesus the Lamb of God came they would sacrifice an innocent lamb as a sin offering. God has set things up in such a way that without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins. Who am I to question the way He has ordained things to be. Jesus said you must be perfect even as your heavenly father is perfect. What I believe that means is we are to strive for perfection, but it is God who has begun a good work in us and will complete what He started in us. In the mean time all our past, present and future sins are atoned for making us the righteousness of God, because Jesus became sin for us and all the righteousness of Jesus is on us (Our sin on Him and His righteousness on us). It is written how can we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?

 

[snakelegs]

I think the question is why?
As you can see, it's the entire concept that doesn't make sense not just one specific area.
Peace,
Hana

i agree with this. it never made any sense to me either, though i must admit that i have never tried to understand it as it was never one of my interests.

 

[*Hana*]

i agree with this. it never made any sense to me either, though i must admit that i have never tried to understand it as it was never one of my interests.

Oh, I've tried desperately to understand it because prior to reverting, my salvation depended on it. :muddlehea

Alhamdulillah, I found Islam so that's not an issue for me anymore.

Peace to you,
Hana

 

[YusufNoor]

The Centurion at the final hour before the celebration of Passover was to break the legs of all that were hanging on a cross. He was an expert who can tell if one was unconscious or dead. He would break the legs of those still alive so that the condemned couldn't push themselves up for air hence speed up the death process for them. He broke the legs of the two that were next to Jesus, but when he saw that Jesus was already dead, he didn't break His legs as a fulfillment to prophecy. Jesus was seen by hundreds of people after his resurrection including His disciples. His disciples even witnessed is ascension.

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu,

Salaam,

what centurian? what is his name? on what date did this event take place? are there news stories from THAT day that confirm this?

if not, where does this story come from? who originally reported it? is there a chain of narrators leading back to the original source?

or is this one of those "according to" stories? and if so, according to who? can this person be identified?

in other words, what factual evidence is there to this myth?

 

[dougmusr]

Peace to you doug:

Remember how the Jews were always coming to Him with riddles to try to trick Jesus, pbuh. (ie: Matt. 22:17 asking about paying tribute to Ceasar, John 8:4, Mark 12:28, etc.). This was another one of those "riddles" for Jesus, pbuh.

Luke 20:27-36:

27 Then some of the Sadducees, who deny that there is a resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 28 saying: “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies, having a wife, and he dies without children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. And the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second[a] took her as wife, and he died childless. 31 Then the third took her, and in like manner the seven also; and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife.”
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

This is confirmed by simply looking at Lazareth's physical resurrection. He was not like the angels as he required food, drink, sleep, and I'm quite sure he is still not roaming the earth, which means he had to die again to be spiritually resurrected, which would be exactly the way Jesus, pbuh, said it would be.

Peace to you,
Hana

Thanks for your patience. Do you believe a person who is alive on the last day must die a physical death and be resurrected to enter heaven?

 

[dougmusr]

Peace Doug:

With reference to Isiaha 48:16. This verse in no way says anything about Jesus, pbuh. You are assuming such things. This is known as eisegesis, (reading one's own ideas into a text) There is no specific reference to anyone except God. Granted when it become common practice for the prophets to speak in the first person, (many examples of this are in the bible) along with God speaking in the first person, it can become confusing.

However, this still in no way, shape or forum claims divinity for Jesus, pbuh or any other person.

Just this one chapter alone (48) from verse 1, is a definite contradiction to itself IF what you are attempting to say were accurate. So, this poses another problem. Which is correct? Chapter 48 Verses 1-11 or your idea/interpretation of verse 16?

With peace,
Hana

Isaiah 48:16 16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

So who is the "I" referring to in this verse?