Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

[dougmusr]

Peace to you Alexius:

I think the question is why? What would be the purpose in so much humiliation, suffering, torture, etc., when God, the creator of ALL things can simply forgive? Christians say Christ died on the cross so their sins could be forgiven...why and how? Particularly when the Bible is clear that sin cannot be inherited. God said He was not the author of confusion, but your very salvation has no logical explanation, and quite frankly, was not mentioned anywhere in the older manuscripts.

As you can see, it's the entire concept that doesn't make sense not just one specific area.

Peace,
Hana

Isn't this the same logical reason why our Agnostic forum members believe there is no Hell? Why is their logic flawed concerning Hell and yours is correct concerning the need for Christ's atonement for forgiveness?

 

[Redeemed]

I wish that we could take all the books of the different faiths and put them in a vault locked up before the world where every one cries out to there creator saying show us Creator of the world which book is most closely aligned with your will? Then the world can witness the only book standing with the others burned or ripped to sheds. This should be possible to arrange.

 

[Redeemed]

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu,

Salaam,

what centurian? what is his name? on what date did this event take place? are there news stories from THAT day that confirm this?

if not, where does this story come from? who originally reported it? is there a chain of narrators leading back to the original source?

or is this one of those "according to" stories? and if so, according to who? can this person be identified?

in other words, what factual evidence is there to this myth?

These testimonies are written in the Bible. I can not give you dates. I can't even tell you the date Jesus was born who knows. These are not fair questions. I can ask the same about the things written in the Qur'an.

 

[NoName55]

book standing with the others burned or ripped to sheds. This should be possible to arrange.

I thought the idea of book burning had died with third reich.

• Is there a forth reich on the way or the third reich transmigrated
• did you escape from landover baptist church?

 

[Umar001]

alapiana1 thinking of showing any reason why poeple should hold the book you quote as valid historical evidence?

 

[YusufNoor]

These testimonies are written in the Bible. I can not give you dates. I can't even tell you the date Jesus was born who knows. These are not fair questions. I can ask the same about the things written in the Qur'an.

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu

Salaam,

i did not start a thread called "Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?", YOU DID! then you posted a story:

Originally Posted by alapiana1
The Centurion at the final hour before the celebration of Passover was to break the legs of all that were hanging on a cross. He was an expert who can tell if one was unconscious or dead. He would break the legs of those still alive so that the condemned couldn't push themselves up for air hence speed up the death process for them. He broke the legs of the two that were next to Jesus, but when he saw that Jesus was already dead, he didn't break His legs as a fulfillment to prophecy. Jesus was seen by hundreds of people after his resurrection including His disciples. His disciples even witnessed is ascension.

you posted this of your own free will, NOW, i'm asking you for contemperaneous evidence for what you posted! is there any? i'm relatively certain that you'll post some "faith" issues other than facts or evidence, BUT, YOUR Bilbe says in 1 Thessalonians 5:21:

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

so, in order to be in agreement with YOUR Bible, please PROVE you statement. if you have no contemperaneous evidence, WHATSOEVER, then ACCORDING to YOUR BIBLE, we must dismiss the fable that you wrote!

do you understand this?

Edit:

I wish that we could take all the books of the different faiths and put them in a vault locked up before the world where every one cries out to there creator saying show us Creator of the world which book is most closely aligned with your will? Then the world can witness the only book standing with the others burned or ripped to sheds. This should be possible to arrange.

you can actually accomplish this. simply destroy ALL writen and computer/print evidence of all the "Holy" books. you can then gather 12 Muslim Hafiz's(who all have "different" mother tongues) and 12 Priest and Mininster of the Christian faith together. at the end of 2 days, the Hafiz's can reproduce the ENITRE QUR'AN and that can by verified by MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Muslims throughout the world! (the opening chapter of the Qur'an is recited by OVER A BILLION people 17 times a day, in it's original language!) as for those priests and minister, they will not even be able to decide what chapters and what verses should be contained in "their Bible"!!! that is one of the PROOFS that the Qur'an is the WORD of Allah(SWT)!

 

[*Hana*]

Thanks for your patience. Do you believe a person who is alive on the last day must die a physical death and be resurrected to enter heaven?

Peace to you Doug:

Yes, Doug, I do. As the Qur'an tells us:

Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. To Us must you return. (Qur’ân 21:35)

Peace,
Hana

 

[*Hana*]

So who is the "I" referring to in this verse?

Peace Doug:

As i mentioned, when the writers of books speak in the first person quoting God, Prophets and/or themselves, the message and words becomes distorted. That's why I said verses 1-11 were completely contradictory to the other verses that are from a questionable origin. One thing is for sure, is that at most the reference is to 2...not 3, (some try to use this verse as proof of a trinity). The "I" could be God in the royal pronoun which is the norm in scripture, or it could be the author quoting a prophet or, as has been questioned, it could have been added later by a different writer, (verses 40-64). So it's anyone's guess quite frankly.

But, really, the main thing is if you try to translate that verse to mean 2 (God and Jesus), then you have a serious problem with the first 11 verses of the chapter. If you apply it as a quote the writer added then you have man's word mixed with the word of God. If you take it to mean a prophet was speaking, then again, the entire chapter contradicts itself. So, I suspect it is for these reasons and more that this verse is not often used to try to prove the tri-union theory or divinity of Jesus.

Personally, reading this chapter, the writing style does change quite noticeably so I understand why there are questions raised as to the authorship of some of the verses. Also, although there have been more than one copy of the Isiaha manuscript found, none are exactly the same....so this also raises doubt about the authenticity of some verses.

Anyway, just my humble opinion based on researching from others with far more knowledge than me. I'm sure they have forgotten more than I know, so I can only give my opinion as I am not a scholar. However, I would recommend you seek the advice of a biblical scholar that is familiar with the writing styles of biblical text. It's dangerous waters when one tries to translate or give meaning to verses that are not clear or seem to contradict the verses before it. Just some advice, and I remind myself first.

Peace,
Hana

 

[ACC]

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu

Salaam,

i did not start a thread called "Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?", YOU DID! then you posted a story:



you posted this of your own free will, NOW, i'm asking you for contemperaneous evidence for what you posted! is there any? i'm relatively certain that you'll post some "faith" issues other than facts or evidence, BUT, YOUR Bilbe says in 1 Thessalonians 5:21:

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

so, in order to be in agreement with YOUR Bible, please PROVE you statement. if you have no contemperaneous evidence, WHATSOEVER, then ACCORDING to YOUR BIBLE, we must dismiss the fable that you wrote!

do you understand this?

Edit:




you can actually accomplish this. simply destroy ALL writen and computer/print evidence of all the "Holy" books. you can then gather 12 Muslim Hafiz's(who all have "different" mother tongues) and 12 Priest and Mininster of the Christian faith together. at the end of 2 days, the Hafiz's can reproduce the ENITRE QUR'AN and that can by verified by MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Muslims throughout the world! (the opening chapter of the Qur'an is recited by OVER A BILLION people 17 times a day, in it's original language!) as for those priests and minister, they will not even be able to decide what chapters and what verses should be contained in "their Bible"!!! that is one of the PROOFS that the Qur'an is the WORD of Allah(SWT)!

Rather angry fellow, aren’t you? How do you know that everything in the quran was from mohamed? Because someone said so? I need a written testimony directly from mohamed, with DNA evidence to prove it was written by him. Please do not say that others listened and copied all that he said verbatim. I need his written testimony, and I don’t want to hear that he was illiterate. That is not a good enough excuse.

The fact that people can recite one book exactly the same is not astonishing. I believe some of our atheist friends in this forum have pointed out that there are MANY books MUCH older than the quran that have not changed. I guess we will have to call them ALL the word of God.

 

[*Hana*]

I wish that we could take all the books of the different faiths and put them in a vault locked up before the world where every one cries out to there creator saying show us Creator of the world which book is most closely aligned with your will? Then the world can witness the only book standing with the others burned or ripped to sheds. This should be possible to arrange.

Alapiana1:

In actuality, you can do this yourself. Guaranteed only ONE book will be able to stand alone if each book is read with an open mind and heart. To do this you must leave preconceived ideas behind and test each book, research, ask questions, use logic.

It takes time, but it's not hard, and we'll all be here waiting to hear you've said the Shahada :thumbs_up lol

Hana

 

[*Hana*]

Rather angry fellow, aren’t you? How do you know that everything in the quran was from mohamed? Because someone said so? I need a written testimony directly from mohamed, with DNA evidence to prove it was written by him. Please do not say that others listened and copied all that he said verbatim. I need his written testimony, and I don’t want to hear that he was illiterate. That is not a good enough excuse.

Peace ACC:

Actually, you are mistaken....nothing in the Qur'an was from Muhammed, pbuh. It was ALL from Allah, swt.

So, you will never find any claim by Muhammed, pbuh, that He wrote it because, He didn't. However, this thread is not about the origin of the Qur'an, although I do believe if you search the forum, you will find that exact thread. We should keep on topic.

Peace,
Hana

 

[ACC]

Peace ACC:

Actually, you are mistaken....nothing in the Qur'an was from Muhammed, pbuh. It was ALL from Allah, swt.

So, you will never find any claim by Muhammed, pbuh, that He wrote it because, He didn't.

Peace,
Hana

Well, I understand the philosophical difference with that. Admittedly, I was just trying to throw that guys argument back in his face because it has been proven in the past on this very forum to not be much of an argument. Plus, he just seemed very confrontational with others.

 

[YusufNoor]

Rather angry fellow, aren’t you? How do you know that everything in the quran was from mohamed? Because someone said so? I need a written testimony directly from mohamed, with DNA evidence to prove it was written by him. Please do not say that others listened and copied all that he said verbatim. I need his written testimony, and I don’t want to hear that he was illiterate. That is not a good enough excuse.

The fact that people can recite one book exactly the same is not astonishing. I believe some of our atheist friends in this forum have pointed out that there are MANY books MUCH older than the quran that have not changed. I guess we will have to call them ALL the word of God.

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu

Greetings of Peace Brother ACC,

i simply don't understand you claim of anger! is asking someone to prove the statement a sign of anger??:rollseyes

a Christian comes on an Islamic site and wants to make a claim, which we believe to be erroneous. all i'm asking for is contemperaneous information, if any exists, to back up her claim!

all the verses in the Qur'an were written down during the life of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), you may choose not to believe it, but there's evidence to support it! the Qur'an, was compiled under Zaid ibn Thaabit(ra), a Hafiz during the life of the Messenger of Allah(pbuh) of the Banu An-Najjaar clan, a task he undertook during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr As Siddeeq(ra).

i have asked the sister who began the thread if she could supply the name of the originator of her story and the date of the incident, can you provide it?

can ANYONE provide it?

Well, I understand the philosophical difference with that. Admittedly, I was just trying to throw that guys argument back in his face because it has been proven in the past on this very forum to not be much of an argument. Plus, he just seemed very confrontational with others.

you are definately entitled to your opinion. as for me, i ask that Allah(SWT) guide you to the truth and that He(SWT) bestow His(SWT) Blessings and Mercy upon you and your family! Ameen!

 

[NoName55]

i have asked the sister who began the thread if she could....

I made that mistake too by looking at the name but later foud that its a brother

wa-salaam alaikum

 

[YusufNoor]

I made that mistake too by looking at the name but later foud that its a brother

wa-salaam alaikum

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu,

:-[ :-[ :-[

Astaghfirullah!

Jazakullah khair for the correction! i will try, Insha' Allah, to remember this!

 

[ACC]

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu

Greetings of Peace Brother ACC,

i simply don't understand you claim of anger! is asking someone to prove the statement a sign of anger??:rollseyes

a Christian comes on an Islamic site and wants to make a claim, which we believe to be erroneous. all i'm asking for is contemperaneous information, if any exists, to back up her claim!

all the verses in the Qur'an were written down during the life of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), you may choose not to believe it, but there's evidence to support it! the Qur'an, was compiled under Zaid ibn Thaabit(ra), a Hafiz during the life of the Messenger of Allah(pbuh) of the Banu An-Najjaar clan, a task he undertook during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr As Siddeeq(ra).

i have asked the sister who began the thread if she could supply the name of the originator of her story and the date of the incident, can you provide it?

can ANYONE provide it?



you are definately entitled to your opinion. as for me, i ask that Allah(SWT) guide you to the truth and that He(SWT) bestow His(SWT) Blessings and Mercy upon you and your family! Ameen!

I assume this person got it from the Bible? Wouldnt he just post the relevant book of the Bible?

I cant imagine it would be easy for this person to state the exact date that this event took place, as it was a couple of thousand years ago.

It is my understanding that the quran was not compiled until ~ 150 years after mohamed's death. Is this correct and why did they wait so long? I would think he would have wanted it documented if that was the intention. The hadith was not from him at all, it was a history of his life more than anything else if I understand correctly. Why was this eventually considered a holy text as well, and how has its authenticity been corroborated? These are just questions of clarification.

But I definitely stand by my argument that it is not a big deal for a book to be the same for a long time. There are many books like this, and they are not considered the word of God, as many of the atheists in this forum have pointed out before.

As for the anger, I guess I interpreted it wrong. Definitely cant read tone, so that is egg on my face.

 

[- Qatada -]

Hey ACC.


I don't know where you got your claim from that the Qur'an was written 150years after the passing away of the Messenger of Allaah peace be upon him, how can that be when it was his own companions who writ it [compiled by Zayd ibn Thaabit, while Uthman ibn Affaan was Khalifah], and we still have a copy of that existing today in the Museum of Turkey?

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/topkapi.html


If you want to read over why we accept the Ahadith - sayings of the Messenger of Allaah, then you should refer to this link;
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-sources/37234-rules-governing-criticism-hadeeth.html


Infact this is a whole science of its own, and our religion depends upon evidence and faith together, none of them is lacking and the praise is for Allaah who has preserved for us our religion.

 

[ACC]

Hey ACC.


I don't know where you got your claim from that the Qur'an was written 150years after the passing away of the Messenger of Allaah peace be upon him, how can that be when it was his own companions who writ it [compiled by Zayd ibn Thaabit, while Uthman ibn Affaan was Khalifah], and we still have a copy of that existing today in the Museum of Turkey?

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/topkapi.html


If you want to read over why we accept the Ahadith - sayings of the Messenger of Allaah, then you should refer to this link;
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-sources/37234-rules-governing-criticism-hadeeth.html


Infact this is a whole science of its own, and our religion depends upon evidence and faith together, none of them is lacking and the praise is for Allaah who has preserved for us our religion.

I thought it was passed for a generation or so before being fully put to paper.

 

[YusufNoor]

I assume this person got it from the Bible? Wouldnt he just post the relevant book of the Bible?

I cant imagine it would be easy for this person to state the exact date that this event took place, as it was a couple of thousand years ago.

It is my understanding that the quran was not compiled until ~ 150 years after mohamed's death. Is this correct and why did they wait so long? I would think he would have wanted it documented if that was the intention. The hadith was not from him at all, it was a history of his life more than anything else if I understand correctly. Why was this eventually considered a holy text as well, and how has its authenticity been corroborated? These are just questions of clarification.

But I definitely stand by my argument that it is not a big deal for a book to be the same for a long time. There are many books like this, and they are not considered the word of God, as many of the atheists in this forum have pointed out before.

As for the anger, I guess I interpreted it wrong. Definitely cant read tone, so that is egg on my face.

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu

Greetings of Peace Brother ACC,

there's no egg! i usualy don't get involved (ANYMORE) in these type of threads. as a Muslim, we know that guidance can only come from Allah(SWT), so unless someone is interested in a 2-way discussion, there's not much point in wasting the time.

however, if i went on a Christian site and posted something that i believe to be factual, i would hope to evidence to back up my claim(s). but, i don't do that. [especially if i was going to post something that NO ONE on the site is going to believe!]

regarding:

The fact that people can recite one book exactly the same is not astonishing. I believe some of our atheist friends in this forum have pointed out that there are MANY books MUCH older than the quran that have not changed. I guess we will have to call them ALL the word of God.

and i'm NOT trying to be agruementitive. i wrote:

you can actually accomplish this. simply destroy ALL writen and computer/print evidence of all the "Holy" books. you can then gather 12 Muslim Hafiz's(who all have "different" mother tongues) and 12 Priest and Mininster of the Christian faith together. at the end of 2 days, the Hafiz's can reproduce the ENITRE QUR'AN and that can by verified by MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Muslims throughout the world! (the opening chapter of the Qur'an is recited by OVER A BILLION people 17 times a day, in it's original language!) as for those priests and minister, they will not even be able to decide what chapters and what verses should be contained in "their Bible"!!! that is one of the PROOFS that the Qur'an is the WORD of Allah(SWT)!

but i changed the color! now let's look at the statement:

gather 12 Muslim Hafiz's(who all have "different" mother tongues) and 12 Priest and Mininster of the Christian faith together. at the end of 2 days, the Hafiz's can reproduce the ENITRE QUR'AN and that can by verified by MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Muslims throughout the world![/QUOTE]

i'm stating that 12 Hafiz, who all have "different" mother tongues can can reproduce the ENITRE QUR'AN, in it's ORIGINAL language in 2 days! AND that: it can by verified by MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Muslims throughout the world!

name 1 book, over 1000 years old, that MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people throughout the world can verify in it's ORIGINAL language!

just one!

 

[- Qatada -]

I thought it was passed for a generation or so before being fully put to paper.

Nope, infact it was compiled within one year after the passing away of the Messenger of Allaah, peace be upon him. Then it was also compiled by Uthman ibn Affaan, a companion and successor of the Messenger of Allaah. Which is in the Museum of Turkey today, and you can see the pics if you click on the link i posted in the previous post.


By the way, totally agree with you bro yusuf. That's a good point to take into account.



Regards.