A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu
Greetings of Peace Brother ACC,
there's no egg! i usualy don't get involved (ANYMORE) in these type of threads. as a Muslim, we know that guidance can only come from Allah(SWT), so unless someone is interested in a 2-way discussion, there's not much point in wasting the time.
however, if i went on a Christian site and posted something that i believe to be factual, i would hope to evidence to back up my claim(s). but, i don't do that. [especially if i was going to post something that NO ONE on the site is going to believe!]
regarding:
and i'm NOT trying to be agruementitive. i wrote:
but i changed the color! now let's look at the statement:
i'm stating that 12 Hafiz, who all have "different" mother tongues can can reproduce the ENITRE QUR'AN, in it's ORIGINAL language in 2 days! AND that: it can by verified by MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Muslims throughout the world!
name 1 book, over 1000 years old, that MILLIONS and MILLIONS of people throughout the world can verify in it's ORIGINAL language!
just one!
I guess I dont see the correlation in the argument. Just because it was memorized and hasnt changed, that doesnt seem like a big deal to me. It only points to the fact that many others think it is important enoough to do this......although it is impressive to see someone memorize an entire book.
Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?
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A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu
Greetings of Peace Brother ACC,
no arguement here, and Insha' Allah, i'll let it drop with you.
BUT, just 1 book is all that i ask!
A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu
Greetings of Peace Brother ACC,
no arguement here, and Insha' Allah, i'll let it drop with you.
BUT, just 1 book is all that i ask!
Sorry, never directly replied to the one book question. The answer is, I dont know. May have something to do with the amount of followers. I am sure there are people that have memorized entire books. Islam would have a larger following than most of these cases, so it would make sense that there are many people that have memorized the entire quran, although I doubt millions. I have never met a muslim that has in my travels, although that doesnt exactly constitute a scientific poll. I have known muslims from Suadi Arabia (when I was younger), different parts of Africa, Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt, Lebanon, etc.
FatimaAsSideqah
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This is off-topic..we have to keep discussing about the title!
there are nearly twice as many Christians than Muslims worldwide
- Christianity: 2.1 billion
- Islam: 1.3 billion
- Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
- Hinduism: 900 million
- Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
- Buddhism: 376 million
- primal-indigenous: 300 million
- African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
- Sikhism: 23 million
- Juche: 19 million
- Spiritism: 15 million
- Judaism: 14 million
- Baha'i: 7 million
- Jainism: 4.2 million
- Shinto: 4 million
- Cao Dai: 4 million
- Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
- Tenrikyo: 2 million
- Neo-Paganism: 1 million
- Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
- Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
- Scientology: 500 thousand
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Woodrow
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Returning to the topic.
What is the basis for this belief? Does more than one source exist? Did the Jews or Romans in Judea at the time, show any surprise that Jesus(as) was walking the Earth?
This should have been a very noticable event. However, it seems we only have the alleged writings of 4 men who lay claim to having been eye witnesses. It seems there should have been hundreds of witnesses and This would have been passed down by word of mouth among many people from all walks of life. The Roman occupiers of Judea should have been conducting a massive campaign to squelch the stories or recanting and leaving Judea in droves. But, we know they stayed around long enough to destroy the Temple in AD 70. It does not seem that those Romans showed any fear of facing the wrath of a resureccted Jew. I can not find any evidence that anybody in Judea believed that Jesus(as) rose from the dead. Except for the few words alleged to belong the writers of the NT. There is plenty of Historical Evidence that Jesus(as) lived. There is even considerable agreement among Christian and Non-Christians that he was raised up to Heaven. But, I have yet to find any evidence from that time period that Jesus(as) died on the Cross, except for the NT.
Where is a single non-Christian Documentation that Jesus(as) rose from the Dead?
What is the basis for this belief? Does more than one source exist? Did the Jews or Romans in Judea at the time, show any surprise that Jesus(as) was walking the Earth?
This should have been a very noticable event. However, it seems we only have the alleged writings of 4 men who lay claim to having been eye witnesses. It seems there should have been hundreds of witnesses and This would have been passed down by word of mouth among many people from all walks of life. The Roman occupiers of Judea should have been conducting a massive campaign to squelch the stories or recanting and leaving Judea in droves. But, we know they stayed around long enough to destroy the Temple in AD 70. It does not seem that those Romans showed any fear of facing the wrath of a resureccted Jew. I can not find any evidence that anybody in Judea believed that Jesus(as) rose from the dead. Except for the few words alleged to belong the writers of the NT. There is plenty of Historical Evidence that Jesus(as) lived. There is even considerable agreement among Christian and Non-Christians that he was raised up to Heaven. But, I have yet to find any evidence from that time period that Jesus(as) died on the Cross, except for the NT.
Where is a single non-Christian Documentation that Jesus(as) rose from the Dead?
This is off-topic..we have to keep discussing about the title!
A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu
i would love for the Brother who started the thread to respond to my questions, regarding the original topic!
i think that he kind of did, and i, for one, would love to hear a more reasoned response!
here's a link that says around 10 million!! [my guesstimate was around 8 million!]
http://islamtomorrow.com/articles/Bible_vs_Quran.asp
i more or less agree with Uncle Woodrow, and would like to see something that was actually written within a year or so of the incident! with evidence to support...
Greetings.
Respectfully, I think there is some evidence. Here is an example.
Tacitus was a Roman historian. His 'Annals', written about 115 AD, mention the emperor Nero's persecution of the followers of Christ in Rome in AD 64. This was the year of the great fire of Rome. There were suspicions that the emperor himself had started the fire. This is what Tacitus says (Annals 15:44):
To dispel the rumor, Nero substituted as culprits, and treated with the most extreme punishments, some people, popularly known as Christians, whose disgraceful activities were notorious. The originator of that name, Christus, had been executed when Tiberius was emperor, by order of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. But the deadly cult, though checked for a time, was now breaking out again not only in Judea, the birthplace of this evil, but even throughout Rome, where all the nasty and disgusting ideas from all over the world pour in and find a ready following.
Notice the following points from Tacitus:
* Christ was executed while Tiberius was emperor (14-37 AD)
* He was executed by order of Pontius Pilate (procurator from 26-36 AD)
* His movement had its origins in Judea
* There were enough followers of Christ in Rome by AD 64 to be made scapegoats by the emperor Nero
This comes from an unsympathetic pagan writer.
Peace.
Respectfully, I think there is some evidence. Here is an example.
Tacitus was a Roman historian. His 'Annals', written about 115 AD, mention the emperor Nero's persecution of the followers of Christ in Rome in AD 64. This was the year of the great fire of Rome. There were suspicions that the emperor himself had started the fire. This is what Tacitus says (Annals 15:44):
To dispel the rumor, Nero substituted as culprits, and treated with the most extreme punishments, some people, popularly known as Christians, whose disgraceful activities were notorious. The originator of that name, Christus, had been executed when Tiberius was emperor, by order of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. But the deadly cult, though checked for a time, was now breaking out again not only in Judea, the birthplace of this evil, but even throughout Rome, where all the nasty and disgusting ideas from all over the world pour in and find a ready following.
Notice the following points from Tacitus:
* Christ was executed while Tiberius was emperor (14-37 AD)
* He was executed by order of Pontius Pilate (procurator from 26-36 AD)
* His movement had its origins in Judea
* There were enough followers of Christ in Rome by AD 64 to be made scapegoats by the emperor Nero
This comes from an unsympathetic pagan writer.
Peace.
Woodrow
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Peace Don,
You are correct about that article. However please notice it was written roughly 30 years after the incident. also notice there is no mention that Jesus(as) had risen from the dead, nor even any mention it was rumored he had.
Peace Don,
Yes, I understand. It is however, one historical mention of his death outside of the NT in that time period, which is the question I was answering. Perhaps we disagree as to whether or not the time period of Tacitus' writing invalidates it historically.
Yes, I understand. It is however, one historical mention of his death outside of the NT in that time period, which is the question I was answering. Perhaps we disagree as to whether or not the time period of Tacitus' writing invalidates it historically.
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Christ died in 33AD. I didn't think that would be an unknown to anyone here.
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If I'm reading this correctly, he wrote the Annals 115 AD? If this is the case, he was obviously not a witness to events but most likely wrote based on oral tradition. That being said, as Woodrow mentioned, there is no mention of a resurrection, no mention of all those corpses that were suppose to have risen and walked the earth, etc. Interestingly enough, it does seem to agree, for the most part, with the oldest manuscripts and the original apostles. And, definitely seems to be missing the Pauline doctrine of a resurrection. That may very well explain why Paul was never accepted by the original followers of Christ and why he was accused of preaching false doctrine. Very interesting though...I love history 
Peace,
Hana
Peace,
Hana
I've changed my post after being reminded .Christ died in 33AD. I didn't think that would be an unknown to anyone here.Originally Posted by NoName55
okay!
- when did anno domini start (year zero)?
- 14-37 year before Christ's ascension? or
- did Chirst get executed 14-37 years after ascension?
- and got prosecuted by a fellow who got his position 26 A.D
now it makes even less sense 115 - 33 = 30 years
thanks
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Woodrow
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I don't think that invalidates it historicaly. I definetly agree there is plenty of impartial evidence that Jesus(as) was walking the Earth at that time frame. The area where we are going to disagree is over it was Jesus(as) who died on the cross. And if Jesus(as) did arise from the dead.
I have no problem in seeing that some of the people believed Jesus(as) was crucified. To be honest I was unaware or had forgotten that it was mentioned anyplace except in the NT. I do thank you for pointing that out to me.
My belief is that while some body was crucified and many thought it was Jesus(as). Jesus (as) was not crucified nor killed.
Jesus did not rise from the grave as he was raised up to heaven, without facing the grave.
I just noticed a paradox the things that prove your view to you are the same things that prove my view to me.
We both agree that Jesus(as) was here. We both agree he is now in heaven and we both wait for his return.
We both agree nobody is going to find a "Body" of Jesus(as) in an earthly grave.
We have returned to point A. It all depends on which is the Truth. The Qur'an or the Bible.
I have seen sufficient evidence to prove to me that the Qur'an is the Truth. I am confident in my choice.
I understand and respect your position. Peace.
Woodrow
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Peace Don. at least we can agree that we probably will not come to an agreement that will satisfy both the Qur'an and the Bible..
I know you believe in the Bible as strongly as I believe in the Qur'an. And so it is.
I know you believe in the Bible as strongly as I believe in the Qur'an. And so it is.
i don't think that 33AD "works". it is impossible to fit that into what the Bible says concerning Jesus' resurrection. there couldn't have been a "Saturday" resurrection that year!
mg:unless you have some math to work it out! ^o)
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Well, we agree, but I know this is not possible. If it were, am sure everyone would like to see something like that so we could all be united under one truth with one God. I am not talking about burning books. I am talking about a sign from the ALmighty. This thing of all the division of religions is terrible. I don't really see how there can ever be peace when the whole world is dancing to the beat of a different drummer. Do you know waht i mean? I am interested in learning more about the Qur'an. Do you know a way I can get one? I tried ordering one online, and its been a month, and I still didn't get it.