Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Actually, I wouldn't say it unless I felt that it was an intercessory prayer for someone whose eternal destiny was undecided, and if I felt that it would alter the persons eternal destiny. As a Christian, I feel that one's eternal destiny is set prior to death, and nothing can be done to change it following death.

Jn 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

So you wouldnt say it out of respect?
Ok then..well me off.
Later

 

[dougmusr]

Was Jesus, pbuh, born of a Virgin mother? Did God simply say "be" and He was? This means He was CREATED! The text I bolded was not found in the oldest manuscripts which means it was an interpolation that came much later. This is agreed by most prominent Biblical Scholars and the "correction" is noted in the footnotes of the most recent versions.



This really doesn't mean much, quite frankly. First, we've already dismissed the "in the beginning...." portion as we know it was not part of the oldest manuscripts. The rest is just your interpretation of text.

Still waiting for an answer to my 2 questions.

Peace,
Hana

The prophet Isaiah indicated that the creator in verse 13, who claimed to speak from the beginning in verse 16, was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit. So independent of John, the Bible teaches that Christ's existance preceeded His physical birth. That is why it is called an incarnation.

From Isaiah 48: 12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.

13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.

14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.

15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.

16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

 

[*Hana*]

I presume you were wanting me to answer your question about Jesus spiritual ressurection. Well, I believe that Jesus was physically resurrected for His appearances to many witnesses. But His spiritual resurrection was the same as those who are living on the last day will experience.

1 cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The dead shall be raised, the living will be changed from physical to spiritual existance in the twinkling of an eye.

Peace Doug:

So my question still stands. When did Jesus, pbuh, die again so He could be physically resurrected. According to Jesus, pbuh, Himself, it IS necessary to die to be spiritually resurrected? Most Christians believe that happened on Easter Sunday, but we know now that is not correct. So, when exactly did He die for the last time so He could be resurrected in the spiritual form? (We also know the trumpet hasn't sounded yet)

Peace to you,
Hana

 

[dougmusr]

So you wouldnt say it out of respect?
Ok then..well me off.
Later

Thanks for your reply. We should show respect to those who are due it while they are alive. It might make the living feel better, but it has no effect on the dead in my opinion.

 

[Woodrow]

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 600:

Narrated Anas:

I heard the Prophet saying, "On the Day of Resurrection I will intercede and say, "O my Lord! Admit into Paradise (even) those who have faith equal to a mustard seed in their hearts." Such people will enter Paradise, and then I will say, 'O (Allah) admit into Paradise (even) those who have the least amount of faith in their hearts." Anas then said: As if I were just now looking at the fingers of Allah's Apostle.

Is this quote from the Hadith not an indication that many will require the intercession of another to enter paradise? Is this prophet not part of the creation? Is he not in fact their implied only hope for salvation in that they require intercession?

Greetings Doug,

Bear with me I am not a Scholar in the Ahadith and very much a novice in understanding it. But, as with all Arabic writings it is essential that nothing be taken out of context. You would not believe the difficulty it is to express Arabic thought into English words. I am not very fluent in Arabic, but I have learned to appreciate the richness of the language and how in depth the connotations of each word is.

But, here is a little bit of putting that Hadith into context withe what is said before and after it and what the implication is.

Volumn 009, Book 093, Hadith Number 599.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Said : The Prophet mentioned a man from the people of the past or those who preceded you. The Prophet said a sentence meaning: Allah had given him wealth and children. When his death approached, he said to his sons, "What kind of father have I been to you?" They replied, "You have been a good father." He told them that he had not presented any good deed before Allah, and if Allah should get hold of him He would punish him.' "So look!" he added, "When I die, burn me, and when I turn into coal, crush me, and when there comes a windy day, scatter my ashes in the wind." The Prophet added, "Then by Allah, he took a firm promise from his children to do so, and they did so. (They burnt him after his death) and threw his ashes on a windy day. Then Allah commanded to his ashes. "Be," and behold! He became a man standing! Allah said, "O My slave! What made you do what you did?" He replied, "For fear of You." Nothing saved him then but Allah's Mercy (So Allah forgave him).


Volumn 009, Book 093, Hadith Number 600.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Anas : I heard the Prophet saying, "On the Day of Resurrection I will intercede and say, "O my Lord! Admit into Paradise (even) those who have faith equal to a mustard seed in their hearts." Such people will enter Paradise, and then I will say, 'O (Allah) admit into Paradise (even) those who have the least amount of faith in their hearts." Anas then said: As if I were just now looking at the fingers of Allah's Apostle.


Volumn 009, Book 093, Hadith Number 601.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Ma'bad bin Hilal Al'Anzi : We, i.e., some people from Basra gathered and went to Anas bin Malik, and we went in company with Thabit Al-Bunnani so that he might ask him about the Hadith of Intercession on our behalf. Behold, Anas was in his palace, and our arrival coincided with his Duha prayer. We asked permission to enter and he admitted us while he was sitting on his bed. We said to Thabit, "Do not ask him about anything else first but the Hadith of Intercession." He said, "O Abu Hamza! There are your brethren from Basra coming to ask you about the Hadith of Intercession." Anas then said, "Muhammad talked to us saying, 'On the Day of Resurrection the people will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, 'Please intercede for us with your Lord.' He will say, 'I am not fit for that but you'd better go to Abraham as he is the Khalil of the Beneficent.' They will go to Abraham and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Moses as he is the one to whom Allah spoke directly.' So they will go to Moses and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Jesus as he is a soul created by Allah and His Word.' (Be: And it was) they will go to Jesus and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Muhammad.'

They would come to me and I would say, 'I am for that.' Then I will ask for my Lord's permission, and it will be given, and then He will inspire me to praise Him with such praises as I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those praises and will fall down, prostrate before Him. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for your will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!' And then it will be said, 'Go and take out of Hell (Fire) all those who have faith in their hearts, equal to the weight of a barley grain.' I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down (prostrate) before Him. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!' It will be said, 'Go and take out of it all those who have faith in their hearts equal to the weight of a small ant or a mustard seed.' I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down in prostration before Him. It will be said, 'O, Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers!' Then He will say,

'Go and take out (all those) in whose hearts there is faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed. (Take them) out of the Fire.' I will go and do so."'

When we left Anas, I said to some of my companions, "Let's pass by Al-Hasan who is hiding himself in the house of Abi Khalifa and request him to tell us what Anas bin Malik has told us." So we went to him and we greeted him and he admitted us. We said to him, "O Abu Said! We came to you from your brother Anas Bin Malik and he related to us a Hadith about the intercession the like of which I have never heard." He said, "What is that?" Then we told him of the Hadith and said, "He stopped at this point (of the Hadith)." He said, "What then?" We said, "He did not add anything to that." He said, Anas related the Hadith to me twenty years ago when he was a young fellow. I don't know whether he forgot or if he did not like to let you depend on what he might have said." We said, "O Abu Said ! Let us know that." He smiled and said, "Man was created hasty. I did not mention that, but that I wanted to inform you of it.

What I see is that nobody is saved from Hellfire because of Muhammad's inter cessation, but they are saved because the have faith in Allah(swt) and that Muhammad(PBUH) interceded only to the extent that he spread the Qur'an.

Astragfirullah

 

[dougmusr]

Peace Doug:

So my question still stands. When did Jesus, pbuh, die again so He could be physically resurrected. According to Jesus, pbuh, Himself, it IS necessary to die to be spiritually resurrected? Most Christians believe that happened on Easter Sunday, but we know now that is not correct. So, when exactly did He die for the last time so He could be resurrected in the spiritual form? (We also know the trumpet hasn't sounded yet)

Peace to you,
Hana

My apologies. Did you provide a Bible verse reference where Jesus indicated this so I can look at it?

 

[snakelegs]

[/QUOTE=Hana_Aku;708214]Go back and read what I wrote a few posts ago. People saw him because he wasn't dead. Well, AFTER he removed his gardeners disguise, then they saw him. He was so well disguised as a gardener that even Mary didn't know it was him. Amazing. Which raises the question: If he was spiritually resurrected who exactly was he hiding from and why? :?

Peace,
Hana

That is a very creative way of trying to do away with the death and ressurection of Jesus, but His death was witnessed and so was His resurrection and assencion. People are going throuh a lot of trouble to explain away His death and the taking back of His life. If He didn't rise from the dead, I would either be an agnostic or Muslim. I would just enjoy the pleasures of sin, but that is not the case. There will be a day of accountability. That is what people don't like to hear. John saw Jesus in a revelation. Jesus' hair was white as wool and His eyes a flame of fire. He said "Fear not, I am He who was dead and now I am alive forever more. I have the keys sto hell and death. I come to judge the living and the dead" Reference is in the book of Revelation.........[/QUOTE]

correction: if you didn't believe he rose, etc etc
you seem to be implying that all who don't believe this are enjoying the pleasures of sin. i can assure you that some of us are leading quite unsinful, unexciting lives.

 

[dougmusr]

you seem to be implying that all who don't believe this are enjoying the pleasures of sin. i can assure you that some of us are leading quite unsinful, unexciting lives.

As an agnostic, what would be your definition of sin?

 

[barney]

i can assure you that some of us are leading quite unsinful, unexciting lives.

Snakey, You can live a unsinful exciting life too y'know!

 

[dougmusr]

'On the Day of Resurrection the people will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, 'Please intercede for us with your Lord.' He will say, 'I am not fit for that but you'd better go to Abraham as he is the Khalil of the Beneficent.'

I would think that the Quran would have to be spread prior to the day of resurrection. In the Hadith you sited, this intercession occurs after resurrection and prior to entry into paradise.

Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!'

In the above, the people needing intercession are "followers" so one would think they had already received and been taught from the Quran.

 

[snakelegs]

As an agnostic, what would be your definition of sin?

interesting question. i don't really think in terms of "sin".
basically, anything that causes suffering - anything you wouldn't want someone else to do to you.

 

[*Hana*]

The prophet Isaiah indicated that the creator in verse 13, who claimed to speak from the beginning in verse 16, was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit. So independent of John, the Bible teaches that Christ's existance preceeded His physical birth. That is why it is called an incarnation.

From Isaiah 48: 12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.

13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.

14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.

15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.

16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

Not exactly sure what you're trying to get at here to be honest. This is God, The Father, speaking, not Jesus. If you had quoted from the beginning of Chapter 48, I think it would make more sense. God almighty is speaking to the house of Jacob (Israel).

If you are trying to say that God knew of Jesus, pbuh, before His physical birth, then I would agree with you. Just as He knew us all and just as he told Jeremiah. He knew us all before we were born, already had planned our birth and death and everything in between. He is the creator of all things, so of course he would know this.

So, really, I'm completely confused as to how these verses answer my questions.

Peace,
Hana

 

[Redeemed]

That is a very creative way of trying to do away with the death and ressurection of Jesus, but His death was witnessed and so was His resurrection and assencion. People are going throuh a lot of trouble to explain away His death and the taking back of His life. If He didn't rise from the dead, I would either be an agnostic or Muslim. I would just enjoy the pleasures of sin, but that is not the case. There will be a day of accountability. That is what people don't like to hear. John saw Jesus in a revelation. Jesus' hair was white as wool and His eyes a flame of fire. He said "Fear not, I am He who was dead and now I am alive forever more. I have the keys sto hell and death. I come to judge the living and the dead" Reference is in the book of Revelation.........

And you are trying to skirt the issue. It's no trouble at all to dismiss the resurrection. There is simply no proof. Can you provide ONE historical account from a non-Christian that discussed the resurrection? How about ONE person that talked about all the supposed dead bodies rising from the earth and walking through the streets? There are many non Christian writers that have written about Jesus, pbuh, and not ONE talks about this resurrection or rotting corpses walking the earth. What makes you think Muslims enjoy the pleasures of sin? We don't believe a man was unjustly tortured, brutalized, humiliated and slaughtered so we would have a free ticket to sin. No, not at all. We are held accountable for our sins and can't pawn them off on an innocent man.

And still you have not answered the question. I would appreciate it if you would.

Hana[/QUOTE]


Whenever I don't answer a question, please restate it, because it is hard to find it through all this dialogue. Next topic, you don't understand Christianity when you say that we can sin and just pawn it off on an innocent man. It is the goodness of the Lord that leads man to repentance. That means Christians are supposed to turn from sin and be perfect like their heavenly Father. God is not mocked; for whatsoever a man sows so shall he reap. We are all according to the Bible guilty of sin. It is written "There is none righteous, no not one... the penalty for that sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life... even to those who believe on His name." It is like being guilty of a crime and going before the judge without an advocate and just the prosecuting attorney (the devil). We wouldn't stand a chance.

 

[dougmusr]

interesting question. i don't really think in terms of "sin".
basically, anything that causes suffering - anything you wouldn't want someone else to do to you.

I would expect that to be your answer. So when a religions person and an agnostic use the word sin, they are using very different definitions. So by your criteria, you may in fact be living a sinless life, but not by a religious persons criteria based on their scriptures.

The problem with the suffering definition of sin in my opinion is that it presumes we define suffering. Let me give an example. Women's rights groups would maintain that an abortion is often the preferred method of handling an unwanted pregnancy. So now we have to decide if a fetus experiences suffering, and if it does, we have to determine whose suffering is more important in the decision, the fetus, or the woman. We also have to determine if the financial hardship of supporting the child if brought to term is worse than the physical and/or psychological effects of the abortion. So I would maintain that a person can't possibly know what suffering may result in the future from today's decision.

 

[Woodrow]

I would think that the Quran would have to be spread prior to the day of resurrection. In the Hadith you sited, this intercession occurs after resurrection and prior to entry into paradise.



In the above, the people needing intercession are "followers" so one would think they had already received and been taught from the Quran.

To be honest we are getting into the Ahadith a bit too deep without having the presence of a scholar who has studied the Ahadith to help explain.

A rough analogy would be to say that the Qur'an is the actual word of Allah(swt) while the Ahadith is the legalistic message as to how we are to live it. I would not even want to begin to try to say what is meant as a metaphor and what is meant to be literal. I am certain that in accordance with that hadith, Muhammad actually did say those words. Now if they are meant to be in a literal or metaphorical sense I do not fully understand.

But, I do know that if we see a disagreement in thought or opinion between the Qur'an and the Authentic Ahadith, it means we are misunderstanding one or both. In the event of a misunderstanding on our part, it is best to follow what the Qur'an says and then try to understand how the Ahadith applies to that, not to make the Qur'an apply to our interpretation of the Ahadith. There will be no difference of truth between the Qur'an and the True Ahadith. If we see a difference, we are not understanding the Ahadith.

With that said the Qur'an does specificaly say we are not to ask for anyone to intercede on our behalf.

Surah 1

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِي
1:
Muhsin Khan: In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Shakir: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Transliteration: Bismi Allahi arrahmani arraheem
الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
2:
Muhsin Khan: All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
Shakir: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
Transliteration: Alhamdu lillahi rabbi alAAalameen
الرَّحْمـنِ الرَّحِيمِ
3:
Muhsin Khan: The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Shakir: The Beneficent, the Merciful.
Transliteration: Arrahmani arraheem
مَالِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ
4:
Muhsin Khan: The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)
Shakir: Master of the Day of Judgment.
Transliteration: Maliki yawmi addeen
إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ
5:
Muhsin Khan: You (Alone) we worship, and you (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
Shakir: Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
Transliteration: Iyyaka naAAbudu wa-iyyaka nastaAAeen
اهدِنَــــا الصِّرَاطَ المُستَقِيمَ
6:
Muhsin Khan: Guide us to the Straight Way
Shakir: Keep us on the right path.
Transliteration: Ihdina assirata almustaqeem
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنعَمتَ عَلَيهِمْ غَيرِ المَغضُوبِ عَلَيهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّينَ
7:
Muhsin Khan: The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace , not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).
Shakir: The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.
Transliteration: Sirata allatheena anAAamta AAalayhim ghayri almaghdoobi AAalayhim wala addalleen

Copyright @ 2004-2005 Islamic Network, Inc. All rights reserved.

 

[Redeemed]

That is a very creative way of trying to do away with the death and ressurection of Jesus, but His death was witnessed and so was His resurrection and assencion. People are going throuh a lot of trouble to explain away His death and the taking back of His life. If He didn't rise from the dead, I would either be an agnostic or Muslim. I would just enjoy the pleasures of sin, but that is not the case. There will be a day of accountability. That is what people don't like to hear. John saw Jesus in a revelation. Jesus' hair was white as wool and His eyes a flame of fire. He said "Fear not, I am He who was dead and now I am alive forever more. I have the keys sto hell and death. I come to judge the living and the dead" Reference is in the book of Revelation.........

correction: if you didn't believe he rose, etc etc
you seem to be implying that all who don't believe this are enjoying the pleasures of sin. i can assure you that some of us are leading quite unsinful, unexciting lives.[/QUOTE]

It is all in the definition of sin. To a Christian, sin is anything that separates us from God. In light of this view, you would be in a constant state of sin being an agnostic.

 

[dougmusr]

Not exactly sure what you're trying to get at here to be honest. This is God, The Father, speaking, not Jesus. If you had quoted from the beginning of Chapter 48, I think it would make more sense. God almighty is speaking to the house of Jacob (Israel).

If you are trying to say that God knew of Jesus, pbuh, before His physical birth, then I would agree with you. Just as He knew us all and just as he told Jeremiah. He knew us all before we were born, already had planned our birth and death and everything in between. He is the creator of all things, so of course he would know this.

So, really, I'm completely confused as to how these verses answer my questions.

Peace,
Hana

I agree that it is God speaking, and according to verse 16, this God has a Lord God and a Spirit. So I am not saying God merely knew Jesus, but that Jesus prexisted His physical birth as the creator. The way I see it, these verses are quite clear.

Concerning Jesus resurrection, He was raised from the dead, appeared to many, and then was transformed and taken up to heaven. He did not need to die again to be resurrected. On the last day, there will be many people living I would guess. I don't feel that God will kill everyone to resurrect them. They will be changed in the twinkling of an eye as Paul says. Change does not imply to me that a resurrected person will leave behind a corpse as they are taken up. So if this does not answer your question, try restating it, maybe I don;t understand what you are asking.

 

[snakelegs]

I would expect that to be your answer. So when a religions person and an agnostic use the word sin, they are using very different definitions. So by your criteria, you may in fact be living a sinless life, but not by a religious persons criteria based on their scriptures.

The problem with the suffering definition of sin in my opinion is that it presumes we define suffering. Let me give an example. Women's rights groups would maintain that an abortion is often the preferred method of handling an unwanted pregnancy. So now we have to decide if a fetus experiences suffering, and if it does, we have to determine whose suffering is more important in the decision, the fetus, or the woman. We also have to determine if the financial hardship of supporting the child if brought to term is worse than the physical and/or psychological effects of the abortion. So I would maintain that a person can't possibly know what suffering may result in the future from today's decision.

as i said, i don't even think in terms of "sin", which is, itself a religious term.
"sin" doesn't really even belong in an agnostic style vocabulary.

 

[barney]

as i said, i don't even think in terms of "sin", which is, itself a religious term.
"sin" doesn't really even belong in an agnostic style vocabulary.

I think you can translate sin into breaking of moral bounderies set by the self or perhaps the state. yeah, i'll take that as sin.

 

[dougmusr]

as i said, i don't even think in terms of "sin", which is, itself a religious term.
"sin" doesn't really even belong in an agnostic style vocabulary.

I of course understand this, and so your claim to live a sinless life full of excitement is by an agnostics definition of sin and excitement, which would be very different than what a religious person would mean by the same statement.

The one thing I think we can agree on is that we probably both know when we have been sinned against. Have you heard the song with the line "Hey, won't you play me a somebody did somebody wrong song"?.