Keep it up Turkey, you know what's best

[vpb]

I don't need to answer for the rulers of the Muslim world today, and as i've stated many times before - the reason why we are in this state today is because the majority of us have actually turned away from our religion.

So you're continuous comparing of the states in the Muslim world today isn't according to Islaam, in fact its the furthest away from it in many ways.

please read again the Fi sabililah posts he wrote a beatiful statment. read it again and again till you understand it

.In terms of where Western communities have gone you should know that I live in a Western community. My son has friends of various ethnicities who share none of the imbued hatreds for the kafir, Westerners, others of competing religions that are part and parcel of your world.

None of the people in my neighborhood are burning down Mosques. None of then are riding around with automatic weapons and murdering those of a different religious sect. None of the are specifically organized to adopt a “special” status to those of the minority faith. There is no concept of dhimmitude in the West where one ethnic or religious majority is held in higher regard that another.

Further, you might be surprised to learn that drugs, homosexuality: all of the vices you ascribe to the great satan™ are just as prevalent in the Moslem world. Do you understand the magnitude of the heroin addiction problem in Iran? How about the raids on gay clubs in the KSA.

and I also live in Western world, and I was raised probably in a more secular state then where u come from...sooo....i dont want those stories I see you are trying to compare a car with a dog. so I see n o point to discuss this topic further.

 

[- Qatada -]

Ignore him bro vpb he takes a pick and mix and chooses to ignore the aspects we give him with truth, and he chooses to follow propaganda instead.

We've quoted that non muslims who live in an Islamic State have rights similar to muslims:

http://www.islamicboard.com/733787-post143.html


There are people who fall into error, whether they are muslim or not. Muslims aren't perfect, but Islaam is. No matter how good the system is - there are always people who will make mistakes. Which is common sense.

But he can choose to ignore or accept, we can't force him to do any of that. Let him wander in his arrogance, and only Allaah will judge between us on what we differ. Then those who submitted to Him and obeyed His Messenger will be rewarded, whereas those who felt too arrogant to submit will be rewarded with a severe punishment - since they rejected the clear signs when they came to them.

 

[- Qatada -]

As it's been pointed out to you, there is no such example of the islamic state you claim would exist.

Just the opposite exists.

Intellectually honest people use facts to conceive their educated opinions, not defend their preconceived ones. But, of course, intellectual honesty isn't for everyone.

I think you don't understand, it's about whether one has existed or not in history. And the answer to that is YES it has - so it is a proof that a just state like that can exist. We also know that we don't give up our Islamic values for other ways, i.e. if there was to be an Islamic State established sooner or later - then it would mean we use the example of God's Messenger and his companions.

The Messenger of Allaah said: "I counsel you to have Taqwaa* of Allaah and to hear and obey, even if an Abyssinian slave were to command you. For, verily, whoever amongst you lives (to grown old), he will see many differences. So stick to my Sunnah [path] and the Sunnah of the rightly guided khaleefahs. Cling tightly onto it and hold onto it with your molar teeth. And beware of newly invented matters. For, indeed, every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is a thing that leads astray, and everything that leads astray is in the Hellfire." [Recorded in Abu Dawud]

[SIZE=-1]*Taqwa: piety, "God-consciousness." Taqwa involves constant awareness and remembrance of Allah, and conscious efforts to adhere to His commandments and abstain from whatever He has forbidden.


[/SIZE]​

And we know that there is a Prophecy that there will be an Islamic State after this reign of oppressive leaders, inshaa Allaah.


I think there's no point to carry this discussion on anyway, i've made my point and you've made yours.


Regards.

[SIZE=-1]

[/SIZE]

 

[Muezzin]

In terms of where Western communities have gone you should know that I live in a Western community. My son has friends of various ethnicities who share none of the imbued hatreds for the kafir, Westerners, others of competing religions that are part and parcel of your world.

It could be argued that that right there displays your intolerance. I'm a Muslim in the West and have friends of various ethnicities, and I have no 'imbued hatred for the kafir, Westerners, others of competing religions'. 'Hatred' of such people is not 'part and parcel' of my 'world', nor is it 'part and parcel' of Islam. Please don't use sweeping generalisations as they make you look ignorant and are just offensive.

I'm not denying that the Arab and Muslim world has its problems. I'm just asking you not to disrespect me with silly umbrella definitions (since they're umbrella definitions about Muslims, they include me) that are based more individual bias than anything else. I don't make generalisations about Americans or Atheists, for instance. Please extend the same courtesy.

If you see others making such posts, please report them.

 

[Malaikah]

As it's been pointed out to you, there is no such example of the islamic state you claim would exist.

Just the opposite exists.

So? What does that prove? If corrupt people are running a country do you expect them to implement the Islamic law properly?

Most countries that implement Islamic law only do so selectively. So why do you think this reflects on Islam itself?

 

[- Qatada -]

Really, right off that bat I can think of a list of 10 of them, ever heard of Moses and the 10 commandments?

But aren't they forgiven for any deeds they do in life anyway? According to christian beliefs?

We know that in the sight of God, no soul bears the burden of another and that man is responsible for his/her actions. And every soul will be questioned by God about what they did in this world, those who obey the Messenger are successful and will have a great reward, whereas those who disbelieve in the truth will face a terrible reckoning. We seek refuge in God from that.

Wow I am glad you can admit that, basically you are saying that money and power corrupts even an Islamic state. Since a true Islamic state should be free of corruption, since it is run by the word of God, how can that be? This is why an Islamic state is no better and in many ways worse than a secular society.

An Islamic State should be run under Islamic laws, yet rulers are fallible. That doesn't mean that Islaam is.

I think you don't understand this concept much so i'll try explaining: Any ruler in an Islamic State is a human, power can corrupt someone, and if that does happen - he can be asked to step down. If we were to say that only those who oppose Islaam should have position/authority in the land, then what's better? An evil ruler who doesn't care at all about the laws of God, or someone who atleast implements them? And if he doesn't do a good job of it - gets replaced by someone who is more likely to do that?

 

[- Qatada -]

Anyways Turkey is better off as a democracy, as Fi_Sabillah has already mentioned

erm.. when did i say that? :?


And no - Islaam is the truth, and truth always rises above falsehood.

 

[vpb]

first,

first you say you have to have knowledge about something to talk about it and then you ramble on about the relationship between parents in america, and so on and so on. Here is the problem, you have no idea what family life in the US is like so your hypocrisy is blatant.

lol, do you have proof that I didn't live in USA? on what basis you are making this conclusion? you proved that your hipocrisy i blatant , not mine please think before you write something.

second,

Murder, suicide, robbery and drugs all happen in Muslim countries as well, and at least in america when someone kills themself they dont take out the market with them.

ye ye ye, except the ones in muslim countries have a reason, butr what about some crazy guy who goes in schools and universities and shoots loads of people, without any reason, you see? you can pull this trick with any country, and your statement has nothing to do with islam, but has to do with personal thinking of those people who do that.

At least in America we dont produce, in the largest quantities in the world, the heroin (opium) that people all over the world get hooked on (including in your Muslim dreamland).

lol, maybe they produce, but at least they don't consume it as much as americans do

At least in America when someone commits a crime they are most of the time caught, and brought to justice, you talk about safety in a Muslim country, lol

ye ye ye ye, and you have cases when the person commits the crime just in order to get back to jail, i know this from personal experience, cuz people can major in things studying in jail, have everything at least they have a free-rent home, and dont have to pay taxes in jail

I never saw a woman in America get stoned to death in the street while people video taped it on cell phones.

if you are refering to the recent topic about a girl getting stoned, we don't really know much about it, and it doesn't necessary means that those people did that with justice, we simply don't know, but as for stoning in Islam, with justice, with proper reason, working with the sunnah, that it's a punishment that Allah swt brought for people who commit adultery, and it is a fair punishment , so people don't destroy other people's life, bc you can play with anything, but if you play with people's hearts, it's very bad thing, the worst. but you criticize this type of punishment , but maybe you can see what happened when the law said "you can't beat your kids", why? bc drunk, drug-addict people used to abuse their children, so they introduced the law to prohibit beating at all (except hitting in the b**ty), so now people think that they solved the case of child abusing, but in the other hand, children are not respectful to parents anymore, and they don't care....so you see still the Law of Allah swt is the perfect wether you like it or not.
a criminal is a criminal, he/she should be punished in such a way so he regrets it and will remember for the rest of his life, so he will not repeat it again


PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT CRITICIZING ALL AMERICAN PEOPLE, BC I HAVE LOTS OF FRIENDS WHO ARE VERY GOOD PEOPLE AND I LOVE THEM, BUT I AM CRITICIZING THE LAW IN PARTICULAR.

 

[MTAFFI]

But aren't they forgiven for any deeds they do in life anyway? According to christian beliefs?

I thought that was how Islam was, if you convert to Islam before death and die as a Muslim you automatically go to heaven:? I know that Catholics have to see a priest, tell him your sins and he will pray for you and he will give you a list of prayers to say to God to ask for forgiveness, and only then if you are truly sorry in your heart are you forgiven by God if he so decides.

An Islamic State should be run under Islamic laws, yet rulers are fallible. That doesn't mean that Islaam is.

I think you don't understand this concept much so i'll try explaining: Any ruler in an Islamic State is a human, power can corrupt someone, and if that does happen - he can be asked to step down. If we were to say that only those who oppose Islaam should have position/authority in the land, then what's better? An evil ruler who doesn't care at all about the laws of God, or someone who atleast implements them? And if he doesn't do a good job of it - gets replaced by someone who is more likely to do that?

Fi_Sabilillah

It is funny that we are having this conversation again...lol.. It is kind of like a merry go round, although I enjoy reading your points and seeing the Muslim view on this so dont let my humor discourage you! In regards to power corrupting someone, what about it corrupting a government as a whole? Then who will ask the leader to step down? Often in politics it is not one person who causes all the trouble it is a group or groups that cause the trouble with one another and all parties are almost always susceptible to corruption via money, power, etc. In regard to

If we were to say that only those who oppose Islaam should have position/authority in the land, then what's better? An evil ruler who doesn't care at all about the laws of God, or someone who atleast implements them?

How is it fair that everyone, Muslim and non Muslim, be ruled by only one religion? What of those who wish to enter in politics and be the president or PM or whatever that are non-muslim? They may be more just at implementing law than a Muslim, even though he doesnt follow the same faith. Every country has laws, and almost all laws are (whether meant to be or not) based on a law from a religion (ie, murder, rape, theft, etc) So why could a Christian not rule a Muslim land, we have the same basic rules from our religion. I guess my main reason for disliking the Islamic state, is whether or not it is clearly shown there are disadvantages in not being a Muslim in an Islamic state, and it creates inequality. Not to mention it is degrading to be under the rule of people who believe their religion is so superior to yours that they get to make the laws of the land that you must abide by.

 

[MTAFFI]

erm.. when did i say that? :?


And no - Islaam is the truth, and truth always rises above falsehood.

I was referring to where you said there is no true islamic state in the world today

 

[vpb]

I know that Catholics have to see a priest, tell him your sins and he will pray for you and he will give you a list of prayers to say to God to ask for forgiveness, and only then if you are truly sorry in your heart are you forgiven by God if he so decides.

why wouldn't be worthy of me praying for myself? I understand somebody praying for you, but it doesn't mean that I don't have to pray myself bc my prayer is not accepted and his/her yes. The advantage of Islam is that you have direct link with God, nobody interferes within your relationship.

How is it fair that everyone, Muslim and non Muslim, be ruled by only one religion? What of those who wish to enter in politics and be the president or PM or whatever that are non-muslim? They may be more just at implementing law than a Muslim, even though he doesnt follow the same faith. Every country has laws, and almost all laws are (whether meant to be or not) based on a law from a religion (ie, murder, rape, theft, etc) So why could a Christian not rule a Muslim land, we have the same basic rules from our religion. I guess my main reason for disliking the Islamic state, is whether or not it is clearly shown there are disadvantages in not being a Muslim in an Islamic state, and it creates inequality. Not to mention it is degrading to be under the rule of people who believe their religion is so superior to yours that they get to make the laws of the land that you must abide by.

you can live in an Islamic state and practice your own religion, go to the church, nobody would stop you, living in an islamic state, is not forcing you to live under a religion, but is forcing you to live under rules which will do nothing except make the society better and a better society with good morals etc etc.Why should we all live under a man-made law? why don't you say anything about the law that your leaders make? let's call it with a name 'secular religion', why should we all live under secular religion? you only say for a religious law, not for a man-made law. why should he prohibit me from buying pen-remover (just because it contains alchool) if I am under 18? you see your arguments are an just an echo of themselves.

 

[- Qatada -]

Hey.

I thought that was how Islam was, if you convert to Islam before death and die as a Muslim you automatically go to heaven:? I know that Catholics have to see a priest, tell him your sins and he will pray for you and he will give you a list of prayers to say to God to ask for forgiveness, and only then if you are truly sorry in your heart are you forgiven by God if he so decides.

If someone enters the fold of Islaam [i.e. accepting that None is worthy of worship except God Alone, and that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is God's final Messenger] - then they truelly have to show that in their deeds.

Yes - their past deeds are forgiven, but they are responsible for their deeds they do from now onwards. Whether they are good or bad. If they sin, they can repent to God without having an intermediarry, since God is the All-Hearing, All Aware. And no soul bears the burden of another, so we don't bare the sin of Adam, nor does anyone carry our sins for us [i.e. Jesus son of Mary.] Rather every soul is responsible for itself.

Fi_Sabilillah

It is funny that we are having this conversation again...lol.. It is kind of like a merry go round, although I enjoy reading your points and seeing the Muslim view on this so dont let my humor discourage you! In regards to power corrupting someone, what about it corrupting a government as a whole? Then who will ask the leader to step down? Often in politics it is not one person who causes all the trouble it is a group or groups that cause the trouble with one another and all parties are almost always susceptible to corruption via money, power, etc. In regard to:

Yeah, it is. I just wanted to clarify some things i never got to explain last time.

The main aim is to pick the most suitable person for the position, i.e. if we were to look at the time of the Guided Khulafah [the successors and companions of God's final Messenger, Muhammad peace be upon him.] We would see that they were the most righteous among them, and their advisors were also righteous. So we use them as an example when establishing a just Khilafah/Caliphate. Yes - people can fall into error, but this is why we are required to pick the most righteous of people, since it is a duty upon every muslim to enjoin the good and forbid the evil.

If we were to always be in doubt in regard to power corrupting a person, then what is the alternative? Are we to pick no-one at all? Or to allow the most evil of people to rise into power? Would the power actually make them more evil, or would they spread good through it?


The main principle is to go for the lesser of the two evils, and Allaah knows best.

How is it fair that everyone, Muslim and non Muslim, be ruled by only one religion? What of those who wish to enter in politics and be the president or PM or whatever that are non-muslim? They may be more just at implementing law than a Muslim, even though he doesnt follow the same faith. Every country has laws, and almost all laws are (whether meant to be or not) based on a law from a religion (ie, murder, rape, theft, etc) So why could a Christian not rule a Muslim land, we have the same basic rules from our religion. I guess my main reason for disliking the Islamic state, is whether or not it is clearly shown there are disadvantages in not being a Muslim in an Islamic state, and it creates inequality. Not to mention it is degrading to be under the rule of people who believe their religion is so superior to yours that they get to make the laws of the land that you must abide by.

Islaam is a whole way of life, the christians don't believe that laws are for all of mankind. Infact i met a character called YEh (a christian)on this forum who said that one can have man-made laws over God's laws. And God's laws are for a specific group of people only. Now do you really believe that God would do that? Or would He send guidance for all of mankind?

I've had to repeat this many times over in this thread, but the non muslims in an Islamic state have similar rights to muslims, there blood and honor is protected, and they don't even have to fight if an enemy enters the land. They pay a tax, muslims also pay a tax. The christians and jews can actually have their own religious court cases to apply their own religious laws, whereas we don't have that today in Europe nor in the US. Yet this is allowed within an Islamic state.


Here's what i posted earlier on the rights of Non Muslims (Dhimmis) and Muslims in an Islamic State;

Rights of Citizens in an Islamic State

Islam protects the rights belonging to the citizens of an Islamic state, whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims.

• The first is the right to security of life and property. Islam prohibits killing except for that which is done in the due process of law at the hands of a God-fearing court. No government has the right to murder its citizens, openly or secretly, because they oppose its unjust policies and actions or criticize it. Furthermore, Islam confers the right of security of ownership of property.

• Another right is that of the protection of honor. Under Islamic Law, if one is proved to have said things that could have damaged the reputation and honor of the plaintiff, the accused is declared guilty of defamation — regardless of whether or not the plaintiff is able to prove that he is respectable and honorable in the first place.

• Citizens of an Islamic state have the right to the sanctity and security of private life. Thus spying on others, reading their mail, tapping their phones, etc., is illegal. Espionage on the life of the individual cannot be justified on moral grounds. In fact, when a government does begin to spy on its own people, the common citizens cannot speak freely even in their own homes, and society begins to suffer from a state of general distrust and suspicion — which in turn leads to more dissatisfaction and eventually unrest.

• No citizen can be imprisoned unless his guilt has been proven in an open court in which he has the opportunity to defend himself.

• Citizens have the God-given right to protest against the government’s tyranny, whether that abuse is directed against individuals, groups, or the entire population.

Citizens have absolute and complete equality in the eyes of the law regardless of their religion

• Islam grants the right of freedom of thought and expression on the condition that it should be used to propagate virtue and truth, not to spread evil and wickedness. Further, no one has the right to use abusive or offensive language in the name of criticism. In fact, the citizen not only has the right of freedom of expression in order to propagate virtue, but also the duty to propagate virtue and stop the spread of evil.

• Islam gives people the right to freedom of association and formation of parties or organizations, provided that this right is exercised to spread virtue and righteousness, not to spread evil and mischief.

• Citizens of an Islamic state have the right to freedom of conscience and conviction. Non-Muslim citizens cannot be forced to accept Islam, and no moral, social, or political pressure can be put on them to make them change their minds.

• Religious sentiments are to be protected. Discussion and debate on religious matters can be held, but these must be conducted in decency with no abusive language. This applies to followers of all faiths.

• An individual cannot be arrested or imprisoned for the offenses of others. Every person is responsible for his own acts.

• Citizens have the right to the basic necessities of life. It is the responsibility of the State to provide the basic necessities for the poor and needy, invalid, orphaned, elderly, unemployed, et cetera. Even a dead person with no guardian or heir has the right to a proper burial by the State.

• The citizens of an Islamic state have absolute and complete equality in the eyes of the law, regardless of their religion.

• In an Islamic state, the rulers are not above the law. All officials of the state, whether they are the head or ordinary employees, are equal in the eyes of the law. None can claim immunity. Even an ordinary citizen has the right to forward a claim or file a complaint against the highest executive in the country.

• Citizens have the right to avoid sin. No government, or administrator, or head of a department can order another person to do wrong. A person who is so ordered has the right to refuse to comply, and this would not be seen as an offense under Islamic Law.

• Islam grants the right to participate in the affairs of state. Thus every citizen has the right to have a direct say in the affairs of the state or a representative chosen by him and others.

http://www.islamicboard.com/733787-post143.html
​

 

[- Qatada -]

I was referring to where you said there is no true islamic state in the world today

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[vpb]

when Omer r.a was a Khalifa , I think he was in Medina, and he said "wallahi I fear the if a camel breaks her foot in Baghdad I will have to answer to Allah, bc I have not fixed the roads". this just tells us, what a responsibility is to be a Khalifa, and everyone should go away from becoming elected as a Khalifa, since it is a huge huge responsibility. But now days it seems every thing's different .

Also when Omer r.a was invited to a christian country (can't remember which one was), he went with a camel and with his servant, and one time the servant would get on camel, one time Omer r.a, and when they arrived the place, it was the turn of the servant to get on the camel, but he sadi to Omer r.a , get on the camel bc we have just arrived so you get on the camel, Omer r.a said no , it's your turn, and when they got there, lots of people were waiting for the Khalifa of the muslims to come, and when they saw them, they went to talk to the one in camel (the servant), and the servant pointed to Omer r.a and everybody was suprizes how could the servant be on camel, and the Khalifa on foot, this shows how modest these leaders were May Allah have mercy on them

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

About the stoning, the people werent even Muslim. So no points for u there lol.
Christian country, u mean Abyssinia? Sometin like that.

 

[MTAFFI]

first,



lol, do you have proof that I didn't live in USA? on what basis you are making this conclusion? you proved that your hipocrisy i blatant , not mine please think before you write something.

I dont need proof, you are the one who made the claims about the US, do you have proof that this is the majority of the population? I do live in the US, I come from a home that never had drugs or beatings and I respect my family more than anyone else in the world. Do you live in the US? If so what interaction have you had with other peoples families? Where do you get your facts?

ye ye ye, except the ones in muslim countries have a reason, butr what about some crazy guy who goes in schools and universities and shoots loads of people, without any reason, you see? you can pull this trick with any country, and your statement has nothing to do with islam, but has to do with personal thinking of those people who do that.

Yeah these Muslims countries have reason to kill each other huh? LOL what was the reason for blowing up mosques, what was the reason for double suicide bombs at a university killing HUNDREDS! Your statement in regards to "pulling this trick with any country" is my whole point, every country has its very share of trouble makers and losers, a whole country can not or at least should not be based on these people, isnt that what Muslims keep trying to tell everyone?

lol, maybe they produce, but at least they don't consume it as much as americans do

What is the difference between producing and consuming, are they both not equally dispicable and wrong?

ye ye ye ye, and you have cases when the person commits the crime just in order to get back to jail, i know this from personal experience, cuz people can major in things studying in jail, have everything at least they have a free-rent home, and dont have to pay taxes in jail

You say you know from personal experience, so I assume you have been to jail, huh? LOL I guess it is better to keep them off the streets though

if you are refering to the recent topic about a girl getting stoned, we don't really know much about it, and it doesn't necessary means that those people did that with justice, we simply don't know, but as for stoning in Islam, with justice, with proper reason, working with the sunnah, that it's a punishment that Allah swt brought for people who commit adultery, and it is a fair punishment , so people don't destroy other people's life, bc you can play with anything, but if you play with people's hearts, it's very bad thing, the worst. but you criticize this type of punishment , but maybe you can see what happened when the law said "you can't beat your kids", why? bc drunk, drug-addict people used to abuse their children, so they introduced the law to prohibit beating at all (except hitting in the b**ty), so now people think that they solved the case of child abusing, but in the other hand, children are not respectful to parents anymore, and they don't care....so you see still the Law of Allah swt is the perfect wether you like it or not.
a criminal is a criminal, he/she should be punished in such a way so he regrets it and will remember for the rest of his life, so he will not repeat it again

Stoning someone to death in todays world is wrong, we are supposed to be a little more humane than that by now. You saying that this is condoned in Islam implicates that Islam is indeed a violent religion. There is no need to gather around and stone and kick a woman to death, and I dont care what she did, it is a disgusting sick act of violence. Not to mention look at those peoples faces doing it, they laugh and smile. I think this effects the heart in a much more profound way than being cheated on by a spouse, I believe it turns the heart black. And as for beating children in America, you can give your kid a good whipping, you just cant draw blood or leave bruises. It is a matter of knowing your strength and the strength of a child, although people who would allow the stoning of a woman would probably not get this. Some children are not respectful because they are not taught respect, not because they werent beat enough, you can teach something to someone without physically beating it into them, this again shows you 10th century mindset.

PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT CRITICIZING ALL AMERICAN PEOPLE, BC I HAVE LOTS OF FRIENDS WHO ARE VERY GOOD PEOPLE AND I LOVE THEM, BUT I AM CRITICIZING THE LAW IN PARTICULAR.

Sure seems like it, you werent talking of the law in your original post you were speaking about all the americans who have problems. I could come up with a laundry list of problems in middle eastern countries. Where would you rather live, in the US or the middle east? If the middle east is so great then why do all these muslims flock to our country every day

 

[MTAFFI]

If we were to always be in doubt in regard to power corrupting a person, then what is the alternative? Are we to pick no-one at all? Or to allow the most evil of people to rise into power? Would the power actually make them more evil, or would they spread good through it?

I think my issue with it is this, take democracy in the US for example, it started out somewhat pure and good. Through time more and more people have tampered with it and now it is not as good. If you were to incorporate a religion into that, and then the religion would become corrupt over time as well, and at the fault of man, not just the rulers, but all men. I would rather have a bad man rule with man made law, than a bad man rule with the law of God. I guess maybe it is the less of the two evils, I think it is just a matter of opinion.

Islaam is a whole way of life, the christians don't believe that laws are for all of mankind. Infact i met a character called YEh (a christian)on this forum who said that one can have man-made laws over God's laws. And God's laws are for a specific group of people only. Now do you really believe that God would do that? Or would He send guidance for all of mankind?

I think he may be meaning that Gods laws are for the individual and the man made laws are for the society as a whole. Compulsion does not fit in with religion, you cant make someone follow Gods law, that is why we have free will, however you can make someone follow the laws of society. Most of the laws in society coincide with Gods laws, it is the laws that dont effect society as a whole that are not man laws, that is because they deal with the individuals morals and ethics. If a person believes in God and wishes to follow his word, then he would not break these laws, if he does not believe in God or follow his word then he will break Gods laws, and God will judge him/ her for that in the end.

I've had to repeat this many times over in this thread, but the non muslims in an Islamic state have similar rights to muslims, there blood and honor is protected, and they don't even have to fight if an enemy enters the land. They pay a tax, muslims also pay a tax. The christians and jews can actually have their own religious court cases to apply their own religious laws, whereas we don't have that today in Europe nor in the US. Yet this is allowed within an Islamic state.

Similar does not cut it, it is not equal, and therefore will never be accepted

 

[- Qatada -]

I think my issue with it is this, take democracy in the US for example, it started out somewhat pure and good. Through time more and more people have tampered with it and now it is not as good. If you were to incorporate a religion into that, and then the religion would become corrupt over time as well, and at the fault of man, not just the rulers, but all men. I would rather have a bad man rule with man made law, than a bad man rule with the law of God. I guess maybe it is the less of the two evils, I think it is just a matter of opinion.

Islaam isn't tampered with, there have been many attempts to tamper it for over 14 centuries now, yet the authentic teachings still remain preserved and intact till today. And it will remain this way till the Day of Ressurection because Allaah Almighty says:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). [Qur'an 15:9]

​

If you believe that God is more just than man, then you can agree that God's laws are better than man made laws. However, if you believe that man's laws are greater then God's - then you need to question your faith in God.

Stoning someone to death in todays world is wrong, we are supposed to be a little more humane than that by now. You saying that this is condoned in Islam implicates that Islam is indeed a violent religion. There is no need to gather around and stone and kick a woman to death, and I dont care what she did, it is a disgusting sick act of violence. Not to mention look at those peoples faces doing it, they laugh and smile. I think this effects the heart in a much more profound way than being cheated on by a spouse, I believe it turns the heart black. And as for beating children in America, you can give your kid a good whipping, you just cant draw blood or leave bruises. It is a matter of knowing your strength and the strength of a child, although people who would allow the stoning of a woman would probably not get this. Some children are not respectful because they are not taught respect, not because they werent beat enough, you can teach something to someone without physically beating it into them, this again shows you 10th century mindset.

According to christianity, the punishment for apostasy is death, but not just that - its actually stoning to death:

Deuteronomy
Chapter 13
KJV

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
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If you've noticed, the most justice in history has to be at the time of the Messenger of God, peace be upon him. And at the time of the guided Khulafah, his companions and successors. You know why? Because the evil doers never felt they could get away from their crimes. A guy couldn't rape a woman with the hope of being released from jail within 2yrs, rather he would fear facing death - so he wouldn't approach that evil. Nor would anyone murder, compared to the amount of murders commited today - why? Because he feared death also.

The laws of God are for the benefit of mankind, they're not for the benefit of the 'who can get the most toys' society. Again, you have to question whether God could truelly send a way of life and guidance for all of mankind, since God has power over all things.

If you disagree - you have to question your faith in God. If you feel that christianity isn't doing a good job of it, then theres probably an alternative which hasn't been corrupted, since the authentic teachings of Islaam have been preserved for more than a millenium - all by the Grace of the Most Compassionate, All Knowing, the Wise.



Regards.

 

[Skywalker]

I would rather have a bad man rule with man made law, than a bad man rule with the law of God.

Man's law can be changed by man, whereas God's law cannot be changed no matter what.

 

[vpb]

I would actually like to pursue this but my prior posts challenging your comments have been removed.

you're not the only one. some of my posts are deleted also.
and thats one thing i wan't to clarify :

You say you know from personal experience, so I assume you have been to jail, huh? LOL I guess it is better to keep them off the streets though

no, i have not been, but it was the incorrect expression of my thoughts, what I meant was actually some other person, not me.