A solution to Israel?

[Fishman]

I don't think it's possible to establish a Sharia state in Israel, since the country is mostly Jewish. There are a lot of Muslims, but not anywhere near a majority. What we should look for is a Sharia Palestine and a Jewish Israel. Despite the fact that Israel was once Islamic land, we must come to a compromise here if we want peace. Israel will soon be ruled by Muslims anyway, since when the Dajal is killed everybody will convert to Islam, and won't care about having an Israel anymore.

 

[SATalha]

I don't think it's possible to establish a Sharia state in Israel, since the country is mostly Jewish. There are a lot of Muslims, but not anywhere near a majority. What we should look for is a Sharia Palestine and a Jewish Israel. Despite the fact that Israel was once Islamic land, we must come to a compromise here if we want peace. Israel will soon be ruled by Muslims anyway, since when the Dajal is killed everybody will convert to Islam, and won't care about having an Israel anymore.

Ameen bro i agree with you. I am just happy that the fighting parties have resolved their problems (so far) and no they can face the real enemy again.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Well, the Fatah and the Hamas parties have agreed today in Mecca to form a unity government, to stop violence against each other, and to work hard to create a viable Palestinian state. After continuous disagreements, this event seems almost historic. While some people are skeptical that this agreement will hold, others find a new sense of optimism in the events that occured in Mecca.

Mahmoud Abbas is to meet with Ehud Olmert and Condoleeza Rice six days from now insha-Allah to discuss the situation between Israel and Palestine, and to continue with the "Roadmap to Peace" that they've been trying to make work.

A lot of people on this forum have ideas about how to solve the problem between Israel and Palestine, and some of them have a lot of merit. I've heard ideas about creating an Islamic Sharia state that will allow Jews and Christians to live within it and practice their religions the same as they are now. Although I like this idea a lot, I always wonder why such a thing wasn't proposed to the international community as a solution for the problem in the Middle East. Obviously just saying the word "Sharia" to the international community would probably spark outrage, but people really believed it could work, they would put their faith in Allah and present them with a solution that is both carefully thought out to give everyone their rights, and for each party to not feel like they are being opressed.

How would you guys like to discuss the possibility of creating such a state, pros and cons, the obstacles it would face, as well as going into some of the finer details of creating such a state?

I was delighted with King Abdullah for hosting the Council of Palestine at Mecca. They followed the ancient laws to the letter, and I have faith in these newly formed Councils.

Sharia Law doesn't seem to be the problem. The complaint, as I understand it, concerns sojourn laws... specifically, the lack of them. Sojourn laws protect the religious rights of guests in one's land, to worship as they choose, according to their own traditions. This is very important since one or another group can become alienated by religious oppression, which in turn leads to dissent within the kingdom. This happened in Iraq, in that the Shia were forbidden the right to celebrate Ashurah and the Yezidis were forced to convert, so it came as no surprize to me to see them cheer during the fall of Saddam Hussein. No rocket science needed to work that out.

The trick though, is to keep them all talking. Eventually, after viewing a certain issue from 359 different angels that no one agrees with, you find the 360th degree that allows everyone to see the issue the same way... or give in from pure exhaustion ;0

I've gotta admit, I'm very pleased with what I've seen taking shape. I thought the Councils would be decades away from forming, but everyone surpized me!

Ninth Scribe

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

I don't think it's possible to establish a Sharia state in Israel, since the country is mostly Jewish.

The laws are almost identical and Torah Law is only manditory for Jews, so I can't see a legal problem. I have one or two "personal" issues, but nothing that can't be resolved in the correct time and place.

To me, the Judeans are the older of the generations and the Muslims are the younger... and while multi-generational households are never without friction, they are most certainly 'do-able' arrangements.

Ninth Scribe

 

[Skywalker]

The Moshiach will come and take the country and establish a Jewish state regardless. The coming of immigrants to the Holy Land was more about there lives being destroyed in Europe, and riots taking place in Arab countries towards the Arab Jews.

So in other words, no matter who occupies that land now, it will be given to the Jews when the Messiah comes? So you could have a democratic government, a communist government, a Torah government, or a Sharia government, and it wouldn't make a difference to the Jews since they're getting what they want at the end anyways, right?

Don't think so. Not positive though. Alchohol (wine in particular) is considered a must drink on Shabbat night, to be able to bless G-d for creating the wine. But in no way are you forced to drink it.

Dude, if a Torah government is what you say, then I'd be very happy if you set it up where I live, in Egypt. If I'm allowed to practice my faith the way I want, I would have no problem living under Jewish rule, heck I would even pay them their equivalent of jizya to be able to live peacefully among them.

The only reason I see that people have a problem with Sharia is that it's been shown in a bad light by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. If there was one country in the world that practiced Sharia the way the Prophet (pbuh) wanted and the way it was practiced by people like Salah El-Din El-Ayoubi, I think everybody would respect it a lot more and look up to it.

I don't think it's possible to establish a Sharia state in Israel, since the country is mostly Jewish. There are a lot of Muslims, but not anywhere near a majority.

I was talking about joining Israel AND Palestine together to form a new state of Israel and eliminating any borders (and walls) between them. I think the two populations would be pretty equal then, besides, pardon the stupidness of this question, but do you need to have a Muslim majority in order to have Shaira law in a country?

Despite the fact that Israel was once Islamic land, we must come to a compromise here if we want peace. Israel will soon be ruled by Muslims anyway, since when the Dajal is killed everybody will convert to Islam, and won't care about having an Israel anymore.

What I'm proposing here IS a compromise. I don't know why everybody thinks that Sharia needs to be imposed. That's NOT the way to do it, especially since the Muslim nation is currently in no position to be imposing anything on anybody. Secondly, we don't know when the Dijjal is coming or when any of those events will take place. They could already be happening, they could be tomorrow, or they could be in 50,000 years. We have to do our best to improve things in this world as if we're going to live here forever, but we also have to be pious and worship Allah like we're going to die tomorrow.

This is not something where you can say, oh the Dijjal is coming anytime now, so forget solving the problem. No, you have people, Muslim brothers and sisters living under occupation, getting killed, getting humiliated, living under opression, and it would be irresponsible to be able to do something about it and not do it because you feel the end of the world is coming anyway. It's like being sick and refusing to take medicine because of the faith that Allah will cure you. Muslims are not passive, therefore if we can do something to improve things there, we should. As they say in Lord of the Rings, "Even the smallest person can change to course of the future."

 

[NiceGuy1987]

Mashallah may allah reward you all for your inputs ameen. just basicly as i see it their will be no peace with israel or palastine the issue is greater then that. Palastine is not for the palastines them selves rather it is for all muslims 1.5billion of them, the 3rd holiest sight of islam is located their al aqsa, now if that goes under jewish rule im sure the 1.5billion muslims would not agree to this.

further more we know that the muslims and jews will remain fighting until Isa(Jesus) peace be upon him returns, wen he will kill the fake missah the jews r waiting for. then the jews will run behind the trees and rocks and we will destroy them

but this does not mean we give up on our brothers on palstine we keep trying out best to work on things.

 

[Keltoi]

Mashallah may allah reward you all for your inputs ameen. just basicly as i see it their will be no peace with israel or palastine the issue is greater then that. Palastine is not for the palastines them selves rather it is for all muslims 1.5billion of them, the 3rd holiest sight of islam is located their al aqsa, now if that goes under jewish rule im sure the 1.5billion muslims would not agree to this.

further more we know that the muslims and jews will remain fighting until Isa(Jesus) peace be upon him returns, wen he will kill the fake missah the jews r waiting for. then the jews will run behind the trees and rocks and we will destroy them

but this does not mean we give up on our brothers on palstine we keep trying out best to work on things.

What a wonderful world view.

 

[SilentObserver]

further more we know that the muslims and jews will remain fighting until Isa(Jesus) peace be upon him returns, wen he will kill the fake missah the jews r waiting for. then the jews will run behind the trees and rocks and we will destroy them

Niceguy?

How will peace ever be achieved when people think like this? If I were a jew I would view this as a direct threat and be very suspicious of muslims that might be inclined to think this way.
I don't believe lasting peace will ever be possible. There will always be people with crazy ideas like these that won't allow a lasting peace.

 

[IzakHalevas]

So in other words, no matter who occupies that land now, it will be given to the Jews when the Messiah comes? So you could have a democratic government, a communist government, a Torah government, or a Sharia government, and it wouldn't make a difference to the Jews since they're getting what they want at the end anyways, right?

Right. The Jews make no claim to the rest of the earth. When the Messiah comes he will lead every Jew to Israel (only half live there now) and rebuild the Temple. Until then we wait.

 

[Skywalker]

Right. The Jews make no claim to the rest of the earth. When the Messiah comes he will lead every Jew to Israel (only half live there now) and rebuild the Temple. Until then we wait.

That's good to know. So then why do Jews have the extreme motivation to rule Israel now? I'm just a curious learner...

How will peace ever be achieved when people think like this? If I were a jew I would view this as a direct threat and be very suspicious of muslims that might be inclined to think this way.

I think the wording of my brother there could have been a bit better...to say the least :muddlehea

He is referring to a prophecy in the Qur'an which states that the Dijjal (or Anti-Christ) will come and a lot of Jews will side with him. At that time, the Muslims will go to war with them AND the rest of the followers of the Dijjal (not just that group of Jews) and will fight then until they are led to victory by Imam Mahdi and Prophet Eisa (pbuh). So as it clearly says that only the Jews that side with the Anti-Christ are to be fought, there is no reason for Muslims and Jews to be fighting now. On the contrary, they should be trying hard to build bridges with each other so that when the dark days come and the Dijjal does start forming his army, a smaller number of people would actually join his ranks. That's my point of view anyway.

Palastine is not for the palastines them selves rather it is for all muslims 1.5billion of them, the 3rd holiest sight of islam is located their al aqsa, now if that goes under jewish rule im sure the 1.5billion muslims would not agree to this.

Well it's under Jewish rule already, not only that but a rather imposing one at that from what I understand. The Aqsa mosque and the Temple Mount is a very sensitive issue and should be thought out very carefully. We can't just say that it belongs to the Muslims and that's it. That's no way to achieve peace. That part of the world is important to Muslims, Jews, and Christians, and should be easily accessible by all three religions. I don't think anybody has the right (earthly right) to deny anyone else access to that, nor should anybody do any "renovating" over there without first discussing it with representatives of the other religions (which is one thing that Israel is NOT doing right now).

If it was under Sharia rule, anybody would have access to the holy places, just like in the days of Salah El-Din.

 

[IzakHalevas]

That's good to know. So then why do Jews have the extreme motivation to rule Israel now? I'm just a curious learner...

Safety. Riots in the Arab world, Pogroms in the Christian world, there were few places Jews could live where they could practice there religion in complete freedom, in public, and without having to pay a tax. Although the Muslim world was a lot better then the Christian world about it, anti-semitism was still rampant. Iranian Jews who remained, (a majority left for Israel) tell stories of how Muslims would ask if they really had "horns".

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

What a wonderful world view.

They're brothers. I get this same crap all the time in my household when my two boys go at it. Only with more expletives.

Ninth Scribe

 

[Skywalker]

Safety. Riots in the Arab world, Pogroms in the Christian world, there were few places Jews could live where they could practice there religion in complete freedom, in public, and without having to pay a tax. Although the Muslim world was a lot better then the Christian world about it, anti-semitism was still rampant. Iranian Jews who remained, (a majority left for Israel) tell stories of how Muslims would ask if they really had "horns".

That's sad to hear. Humiliation is a form of opression, and this is one thing we're trying to destroy. It would be nice if we had just one pure Sharia society where this kind of treatment would not be tolerated.
As for not having to pay a tax...well that's not exactly true. Israel has one of the highest tax rates in the world, I heard that it even reaches 50%! Is this true, lavikor?

They're brothers. I get this same crap all the time in my household when my two boys go at it. Only with more expletives.

When I said brother, I meant brother in Islam...not the brother that I share a room with. lol
That is what you meant, isn't it?

 

[brenton]

Wow. Hide behind rocks and then beat Jews with them.
Maybe the media isn't the only reason people have problems with Muslims.

 

[IzakHalevas]

As for not having to pay a tax...well that's not exactly true. Israel has one of the highest tax rates in the world, I heard that it even reaches 50%! Is this true, lavikor?

It is given to everyone equally though, not based on religion. In some societies Jews would have to pay normal taxes, taxes for being Jewish, taxes for being able to wear a Jewish religious item, tazes for prayers (3 daily) etc.

 

[Skywalker]

Wow. Hide behind rocks and then beat Jews with them.
Maybe the media isn't the only reason people have problems with Muslims.

Like I said, very poorly expressed.

It is given to everyone equally though, not based on religion. In some societies Jews would have to pay normal taxes, taxes for being Jewish, taxes for being able to wear a Jewish religious item, tazes for prayers (3 daily) etc.

I heard that Muslims in Israel have to pay more than Jews, is this true? In Sharia, non-Muslims don't have to pay for every little thing like you mentioned. Instead, the head of every household who is above the age of adolescence pays a yearly percentage of their savings, which in a lot of cases is less than what the Muslims themselves used to pay. Also, they were under no obligation to join the military nor would anybody ever bother them about their religious practices. I don't think you can find a system more fair than that anywhere in the world.

Another thing that non-Muslims had to pay was when traders entered or left the Sharia country, they had to pay 10% of the value of their goods to the government, which is also very fair compared to today's standards.

 

[IzakHalevas]

No untrue. Many Muslims do not even pay taxes.

I believe that people who do not join the military (it is required at 18) have to do something like community service or something on taxes to get out of it, but Orthodox Jews have to do the same when they want to study instead of go to thr Army after Yeshiva (school).

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

When I said brother, I meant brother in Islam...not the brother that I share a room with. lol
That is what you meant, isn't it?

Nope. I meant 'brothers' in the form of... 'House of Abraham'.

Sorry guys, but you're all stuck with each other.

Ninth Scribe

 

[Grace Seeker]

Nope. I meant 'brothers' in the form of... 'House of Abraham'.

Sorry guys, but you're all stuck with each other.

Ninth Scribe

When children, brothers may behave as you have indicated. But when mature, I don't expect the same sort of behavior that I do of children. So are you saying that Palestinians and Israelies are behaving like children?

 

[snakelegs]

israel was founded (rightly or wrongly) as a jewish state - specifically as a homeland for the jewish people.
there is no way they are going to agree to that state's demise.
there is also no way (due to the above) that they are going to grant the "right of return" as demanded by the palestinians.
no one is going to agree to live under shariah law except muslims.
i'm sorry to say it, but the israel-palestinian problem looks totally hopeless to me. they will just keep killing each other until.....?
i hope i am wrong.