Convert vs Revert

[AhlaamBella]

Also the above are newborns even capable of having faith or knowing God?

As you probably know the general Islamic belief is that in order to enter paradise, belief in Allah and his messenger is a vital factor. However, as you quite rightly said how are children even capable to have the understanding of religious concepts? They don't. Therefore, how would it be fair for a child who is being raised non-muslim be classed as such on the Day of Judgement? Hence, a child will always dies in the state of Islam when they return to their creator. Alas.

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

As you probably know the general Islamic belief is that in order to enter paradise, belief in Allah and his messenger is a vital factor. However, as you quite rightly said how are children even capable to have the understanding of religious concepts? They don't. Therefore, how would it be fair for a child who is being raised non-muslim be classed as such on the Day of Judgement? Hence, a child will always dies in the state of Islam when they return to their creator. Alas.

Right mentally and physically and atheist but "spiritually" a Muslim. They hold no belief structure at all. So they would only be Muslims in the sense that their soul is a Muslim.

 

[Ali_Cena]

Yo Mick!

Let us leave spiritually to the side for now? Is that ok with you?

Well obviously if you leave out spirit, soul, and God, then obviously you are an atheist, but when you don’t leave out Islam, you are Muslim.
So it’s whether you think Islam is the truth, or not; that these philosophies come into play. For an atheist everything that I said about being born a Muslim and so on is fictional, and for me being born an atheist doesn’t work with me. At the end of the day it’s about what is the truth.

Peace

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Yo Mick!



Well obviously if you leave out spirit, soul, and God, then obviously you are an atheist, but when you don’t leave out Islam, you are Muslim.
So it’s whether you think Islam is the truth, or not; that these philosophies come into play. For an atheist everything that I said about being born a Muslim and so on is fictional, and for me being born an atheist doesn’t work with me. At the end of the day it’s about what is the truth.

Peace

That is not what I meant in this case. I did not ask to to take the spiritual aspect out, just not look at it at the moment. It is different from the physical I am talking about. You could say they are believer because in there souls, which is metaphysics, the are a Muslim. I can say they are born atheist because there brain has no way to have a concept of God and Islam.

So if we look at them separately, we will both be on the same page. You know what I mean. If we start comparing the physical and the metaphysical we will get know where.
So lets finish covering physically then we shall do metaphysically and then finally add them together. Does that work for you?
Peace
Mick

 

[Ali_Cena]

Hi,

That is not what I meant in this case. I did not ask to to take the spiritual aspect out, just not look at it at the moment. It is different from the physical I am talking about. You could say they are believer because in there souls, which is metaphysics, the are a Muslim. I can say they are born atheist because there brain has no way to have a concept of God and Islam.
So if we look at them separately, we will both be on the same page. You know what I mean. If we start comparing the physical and the metaphysical we will get know where.
So let’s finish covering physically then we shall do metaphysically and then finally add them together. Does that work for you?

Ok I understand what you are saying. Now on to my point, so if they have no concept of making decisions let’s say, then why would they be atheist? They wouldn’t be either theist or atheist until they make that decision.
Atheist by definition: someone who denies the existence of god (if you don’t know what God is then how can you reject it); http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define:atheist&btnG=Search&meta=
So if they don’t know concepts such as God, then how are they rejecting it, you might as well call them born ignorant “for rejecting something they know nothing about”, you get what I am saying?

Peace Mick,
Allah knows best.

 

[alcurad]

no, regardless of factoring in the soul or not they cannot be atheistic for the simple reason that they cannot grasp the idea of God let alone deny or reject it.
agnostic would be a better description, but even that's stretching it too far.

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Now this is funny, about a week ago, I was arguing that very same point on RDF an atheist Site I post on. Would you like a link to that thread? What it came down to is, you do not need to reject something to not believe in it. Atheism does not require an active disbelief. Also adding in the rejecting the idea would mostly likely add the whole agnosticism. You can be both, but you have to be either an atheist or a theist.

Really, this is great. I was arguing that point a week ago. Of course I was arguing it for a different reason. Would you believe that I had this convo a week ago before I told you I did? No. So you would not believe it. Not believing and disbelieving are/can be some what different. Disbelieving is actively not believing. I am doing both. Do you see my point?


Peace
Mick
Again shall I get a link?

Hi,



Ok I understand what you are saying. Now on to my point, so if they have no concept of making decisions let’s say, then why would they be atheist? They wouldn’t be either theist or atheist until they make that decision.
Atheist by definition: someone who denies the existence of god (if you don’t know what God is then how can you reject it); http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define:atheist&btnG=Search&meta=
So if they don’t know concepts such as God, then how are they rejecting it, you might as well call them born ignorant “for rejecting something they know nothing about”, you get what I am saying?

Peace Mick,
Allah knows best.

 

[alcurad]

^not sure I understood that well, the gist of what I said was if you aren't aware of an argument/belief how would you be anything but neutral to it.
a child would not be able to understand what was being spoken, let alone what/who the creator was.

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Here is the thread at RDF
http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=78005&hilit=newborns&start=150#p1890782
Start where it opens or from the first post. Gotta run to work. See you all tonight.

For those who do not click I will do my best to rephrase and state what the outcome is.

Ps Ill post a link to here there if I have to. Don't get made at me for not posting a link back I am in a rush
PEace
Mick

 

[Ali_Cena]

Hi Mick, tried my hardest to understand what you posted but here is my response.

Now this is funny, about a week ago, I was arguing that very same point on RDF an atheist Site I post on.

LOL man you are in too many forums hehe TMZ RDF probably FGS or ELS lol only joking.

you do not need to reject something to not believe in it. Atheism does not require an active disbelief.

I disagree, atheism is an active disbelieve of a deity, you make it “does not need active” to suit the case of newborns were you see them born as atheists. Hear me out...if you do not need to reject “the thing” in order to not believe in it then it is an unactive or unconditional thing, whereas atheism is an active disbelief.

Lol I don’t think I am making this clear for you, you seem to make atheism a “sometimes inactive disbelief” but I don’t agree with that. Furthermore it would make your argument on newborns being born atheist correct, and I disagree on that, I mean I looked at your RDF and found out you and arugula made it seem as new babies are born atheist, but that what you think, moreover you can argue that scientifically babies brain is not complex enough to know about concepts such as God at early stages so they are athiest, but, bring spirit, soul and God into the picture (and make me feel good, man you have been keeping this out and i think it is important in this dialouge ) then we have faith and belief can become "an unconditional belife" as not having an active belief to believe in it.

Anyways I have to revise for my exams, so I too am off but I will see you soon and waiting for your response.

Peace

 

[Whatsthepoint]

no, regardless of factoring in the soul or not they cannot be atheistic for the simple reason that they cannot grasp the idea of God let alone deny or reject it.
agnostic would be a better description, but even that's stretching it too far.

Agnostic means without knowledge and children are indeed without knowledge of god.

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

All right. For now can we all agree that newborns are agnostic?

Now what is a soul? What makes a soul? What defines a soul? What makes my soul different from yours? When I die what will my sould be considered? What type of soul will it be?

 

[greenshirt]

i am a revert and not a convert because the natural fitrah is islam. i reverted back to the fitrah.

atheistofpeace you have asked some excellent questions. insha allah someone will answer you. i wish i could but i dont want to say something wrong!

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

This is great. I am back to my original opinion that newborns are not atheist or theist. Now I am going to have to start the debate again at RDF. Thanks. Anyways there is still a second half for us to cover.

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

i am a revert and not a convert because the natural fitrah is islam. i reverted back to the fitrah.

atheistofpeace you have asked some excellent questions. insha allah someone will answer you. i wish i could but i dont want to say something wrong!

Do not fear that. How wold you know what you know if you do not try?

 

[Ali_Cena]

Greetings all that is interested, I am sure this is turning into a good thread.

All right. For now can we all agree that newborns are agnostic?

Well Mick, I agree with you; on the premise if you take out Islam, and just leave let’s say science; non-religion, that babies are born, agnostic in the sense that they have not made their decision yet, concerning being atheist or theist, but that is assuming no religion is present. Now which way you want this argument to go; “you did say let’s bring the both (ideas) together”, will make things more interesting.

Now what is a soul?

Good questions, I will start by saying the soul is the unseen you. Your way of life.

What makes a soul?

Your opinions, you think atheism is true, ergo your soul is; in Islamic terms: dead; assuming you will always stay atheist, and that my friend only Allah the creator knows; if you soul is dead or not.

What defines a soul? What makes my soul different from yours?

See my above post, your opinion, your way of life. I like to bring up this very good case, you might be calling yourself a Muslim; which means one who surrenders their will to almighty God, by performing what he is asked of, but at the end of the day not doing what you have been told then when you go to the afterlife you aren’t technically a Muslim, ergo Allah knows best.

When I die what will my soul be considered? What type of soul will it be?

Depends on your final choice, have to pass the test or not? I mean one of our great members snakelegs; who when she was here claimed agnosticism, but when she was ill, and in hospital one of her last things she done Mashallah was claim shahada; become Muslims Mashallah, so luckily for her she found the truth, and so (Allah knows best) she was sent “up there” as a Muslim.

You have raised some good points, I like greenshirt hope I have not said anything wrong here, as I too am still learning Islam and Inshallah be forgiven for any mistakes which I have done.

Peace all.

 

[Uthman]

Greetings czgibson,

This really is a bizarre idea. I could just as easily say that all babies are born worshipping Thor and have an inbuilt hatred of giraffes, and that the reason why this isn't always apparent is due to the "corrupting influences" of parents and society.

I have yet to watch the video posted by brother convert and so I will refrain from responding to this point until I am sure that I have understood the concept of Fitrah properly.

The youngest children I teach at the moment are aged five, although I've taught kids as young as two in the past. The oldest person I've taught so far was 76, so you could say I've covered most of the age ranges.

That's impressive.

You seem to be implying something there about the value of letting children make up their own minds.

Or have I misunderstood you?

You have misunderstood me. My meaning was that I can understand why you, as an atheist, would think it is best to let people form their own opinions whereas I, as a Muslim have a duty to call people to the truth.

Regards

 

[Tornado]

I disagree, atheism is an active disbelieve of a deity, you make it “does not need active” to suit the case of newborns were you see them born as atheists. Hear me out...if you do not need to reject “the thing” in order to not believe in it then it is an unactive or unconditional thing, whereas atheism is an active disbelief.

Lol I don’t think I am making this clear for you, you seem to make atheism a “sometimes inactive disbelief” but I don’t agree with that. Furthermore it would make your argument on newborns being born atheist correct, and I disagree on that, I mean I looked at your RDF and found out you and arugula made it seem as new babies are born atheist, but that what you think, moreover you can argue that scientifically babies brain is not complex enough to know about concepts such as God at early stages so they are athiest, but, bring spirit, soul and God into the picture (and make me feel good, man you have been keeping this out and i think it is important in this dialouge ) then we have faith and belief can become "an unconditional belife" as not having an active belief to believe in it.

Peace

Ali_Cena, do you know the difference between a hard atheist and a soft atheist?

Do you know the difference between the following two:

1. I believe in no god. (hard atheist)

2. I don't believe in a god (soft atheist, majority)


Woud you be surprised if I said you can believe in the following two simultaneously:

1. I don't believe in a god.
2. I don't believe in no god.

 

[ATHEISTofPEACE]

Can you tell me more about souls? Then I will start my comments

 

[alcurad]

All right. For now can we all agree that newborns are agnostic?

Now what is a soul? What makes a soul? What defines a soul? What makes my soul different from yours? When I die what will my sould be considered? What type of soul will it be?

there is no clear cut definition of soul, but I don't think it 'dies' or is even 'alive' in the normal usage of the words.
but having a soul means that you are alive, whether you could be alive of not without it depends on what is life , this is endless.
perhaps the more alive you are, the more you have come to know what your soul means.
that is, the soul is defined by life's purpose, it could be changed. that is all there is to the soul, any more and it's another metaphysical concept that everyone could argue about and not agree.

a soul is our metaphysical body, our needs/desires and actions manifest. either it is not physical or it is one of the few existences that are truly physical. depends on how much you lean to the-sophist?- position of all viewpoints-except The Creator's if you believe in him-being equal to an extent.

now this is somewhat off topic.