Eternity hellfire clarification

[DuncG]

It's always appeared to me that Hell, as a concept, is unjust. If you punish someone justly then that means the punishment has to be proportionate to the crime committed. But an eternal punishment can never be put into proportion - the only thing it would fit is an eternal crime, which isn't possible. We are finite beings that can only commit a limited number of crimes before we die. So, to follow the point of the OP: how is infinite punishment justified for finite crimes?

I don't find the answers given so far in this thread particularly persuasive.

Regarding disbelievers being punished for eternity, this amounts to punishing someone for what they will do, rather than what they have done, which is again unjust. But it's actually worse than this: it is not possible to disbelieve for eternity because it is not possible to exist for eternity (you can never 'complete' an eternity) - so never-ending punishment is disproportionate. There is a further problem here if it is true that God has 'put a seal on the heart' of a disbeliever - how is it then the disbeliever's fault? Why should they be punished by God for something God has done?

In every justice system people are punished for what they did or were imminently planning to do. I don't think people 'plan to disbelieve', so why are people punished for their future unbelief? This is even worse than a 'thought crime' because they haven't yet had the thought of unbelief that they will have in the future! Punishing people for holding an opinion is bad enough, punishing people for opinions they will hold is even worse.

Regarding God forgiving someone in Hell at some indeterminate future point: there's nothing 'revealed' that says God will forgive everyone. God may never 'will' to have someone released from Hell, so I do not see how that excuses the apparent possibility that some people will be punished for eternity. If some unbelievers are forgiven and others not, then this simply looks capricious, rather than an enactment of justice.

 

[Masuma]

I don't find the answers given so far in this thread particularly persuasive.

Brother no one is here to persuade anyone. We are just giving our opinions. If you disagree, you may.

It's always appeared to me that Hell, as a concept, is unjust. If you punish someone justly then that means the punishment has to be proportionate to the crime committed. But an eternal punishment can never be put into proportion - the only thing it would fit is an eternal crime, which isn't possible.

No you don't understand!

Even if these people were given an eternal life, they would still have disbelieved!!!! Makes all sense in the world!

God, Who has created us, would know even what will happen in future so as He know already that these people would never believe, so punishment is justified.

We are finite beings that can only commit a limited number of crimes before we die. So, to follow the point of the OP: how is infinite punishment justified for finite crimes?

These "finite crimes" are enough to last one an eternity!

But understand that there are degrees of "crimes". A crime of lower degree will not receive punishment for eternity. And did you honestly read all of the posts?

Regarding disbelievers being punished for eternity, this amounts to punishing someone for what they will do, rather than what they have done, which is again unjust.

Haven't they already DONE disbelieve?

But it's actually worse than this: it is not possible to disbelieve for eternity because it is not possible to exist for eternity (you can never 'complete' an eternity) - so never-ending punishment is disproportionate.

You clearly didn't read all of the posts.

There is a further problem here if it is true that God has 'put a seal on the heart' of a disbeliever - how is it then the disbeliever's fault? Why should they be punished by God for something God has done?

Good question!

It is actually these people who have brought it upon themselves! It is because of their actions that God put seal on their hearts!

In every justice system people are punished for what they did or were imminently planning to do. I don't think people 'plan to disbelieve', so why are people punished for their future unbelief?

I don't understand. People just do it. They just simply disbelieve! :hmm:

Regarding God forgiving someone in Hell at some indeterminate future point: there's nothing 'revealed' that says God will forgive everyone. God may never 'will' to have someone released from Hell,

And how do you know that? You are also just assuming things up! And I think I read it somewhere that Go would forgive many after their prescribed punishment.

For example those people who once in their whole life truly bear witness to Allah's unity and accepting Prophet Muhammad as Allah's messenger will be forgiven after receiving their punishment.

 

[DuncG]

An33za,

Thanks for your reply.

Even if these people were given an eternal life, they would still have disbelieved!!!! Makes all sense in the world!

God, Who has created us, would know even what will happen in future so as He know already that these people would never believe, so punishment is justified.

I still don't see why this makes sense - I endeavoured to address this point in my previous post. Saying that if these people had eternal life they would still disbelieve is just admitting that you're punishing someone for what they would do rather than what they have done. Please can you demonstrate how it is just to punish somebody for something they have not done.

On a similar note, perhaps you could also justify why it is proper to punish someone for being a disbeliever at all? Disbelief is just an opinion - you're not causing other people to die, or suffer pain, or be in fear for their lives or well-being just by entertaining an opinion. This appears to be the worst 'sin' in Islam, yet I have found no reasonable case as to why disbelief is worse than murder, rape, genocide, robbery, assault etc.

These "finite crimes" are enough to last one an eternity!

How is that just? As I pointed out previously, justice relies on the punishment being proportionate to the crime committed. An eternal punishment is not in proportion to a finite crime. You obviously believe that punishing someone for eternity is ok, but I haven't seen any justification - any reasoned argument - as to why this should be the case.

Haven't they already DONE disbelieve?

Sure, and if disbelieving is worthy of being punished (see above) then you should be punished for a time that is proportionate to the length of time that you disbelieved. Eternity is not proportionate to any finite time of transgression.

You clearly didn't read all of the posts.

Please could you point out which post addresses my point that as it's impossible to exist for eternity then never-ending punishment is disproportionate.

It is actually these people who have brought it upon themselves! It is because of their actions that God put seal on their hearts!

Which actions? Is it because they disbelieve that God then decides to place the seal so that they cannot believe? At what point does God decide to do this and why? Surely there would be some people who disbelieve who would, later in life, believe and thus not need to be punished so severely - isn't this just pre-judgement from God? Of course, perhaps God only places seals on people that it already knows will never believe, but in that case why bother putting the seal in place? It appears that by placing a seal God is already condemning them to eternal torture and thus effectively judging them before they've even died!

And how do you know that? You are also just assuming things up! And I think I read it somewhere that Go would forgive many after their prescribed punishment.

I wouldn't presume to 'know' anything about God - note my use of the word 'may' in that statement you were quoting. Have you read any statement that says God will forgive everyone, believer and unbeliever alike, after some finite time? God may well forgive someone after their prescribed punishment, but that's not much comfort for someone who's been prescribed for punishment for eternity. Being forgiven 'after eternity' is the same as saying that it'll never happen!


(P.s. My apologies for not replying to you on the 'Prove Allah Exists' thread - I didn't have time before the thread was locked and I can't PM you until I have 50 posts done.)

 

[جوري]

God isn't unjust to the people.. what people think or 'feel' of who ought to be punished or not is in fact irrelevant.. we can all state our grievances on the day of recompense.. but I don't see why any atheist should worry or feel injustice toward such a day when they don't believe it is to take place all together? Is it a desperate ploy to work on the emotionality of others? I simply don't see how it is of consequence otherwise since no man's judgment lies with another man!

 

[Masuma]

An33za,
I still don't see why this makes sense - I endeavoured to address this point in my previous post. Saying that if these people had eternal life they would still disbelieve is just admitting that you're punishing someone for what they would do rather than what they have done. Please can you demonstrate how it is just to punish somebody for something they have not done.

Now first of all I want to clear a few things up. The eternal torture in hell would be the punishment of those who do SHIRK (associating partners with Allah). So can "disbelievers" be also included in this category? :-\ I don't know. The verses of the Quran says

4:48 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

4:116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).
​

But even Shirk can be forgiven by Allah (swt) through repentance. But if a person dies doing shirk and never even repented, then he will burn in hell for eternity!

So I feel like I should be the last person having this discussion as I'm not much knowledgeable.

And about justification, we have already tried to clear that point and my answer still remains same that the person would never have learned even if they were given a life of eternity. Allah knows it as He can see our future too, so therefore the punishment is justified.

Please could you point out which post addresses my point that as it's impossible to exist for eternity then never-ending punishment is disproportionate.

Look, the problem is that I find many posts addressing this point but YOU don't! :hmm:
Like for example, this and many other posts clearly answers it all IMO.

All muslims who are unfortunate enough to enter hell will be punished for a limited amount of time, until they are cleansed of their sins, then they will enter jannah. The disbelievers on the other hand, those who died in disbelief will be punished for an eternity. The reasoning as per Anwar Al Awlaki is quite simple. The disbelievers only stopped their disbelief because death came to them, if death did not come to them then they would have continued to disbelieve for an eternity. Therefore their punishment is for an eternity, seems fair to me.

On a similar note, perhaps you could also justify why it is proper to punish someone for being a disbeliever at all? Disbelief is just an opinion - you're not causing other people to die, or suffer pain, or be in fear for their lives or well-being just by entertaining an opinion. This appears to be the worst 'sin' in Islam, yet I have found no reasonable case as to why disbelief is worse than murder, rape, genocide, robbery, assault etc.

No, Allah says that SHIRK is the worst crime in Islam. But I don't know about "disbelieving". It is also a crime but don't know if it is the worst crime or not. People who do SHIRK will be punished for eternity but disbelievers are also punished. I don't know the reason as i told you before that I'm not that knowledgeable. Allah has said it and so it'll be. If someone more knowledgeable replies then it is much better as this is a very good question and I would like to know too!

Which actions? Is it because they disbelieve that God then decides to place the seal so that they cannot believe?

Now again I on't know much. This is because in Quran, Allah puts seal on peoples' heart for various crimes. It's not that only the disbelievers have a seal on their heart but people who do some other kind of transgression also has it.

Now about "putting seal on the hearts", I would suggest that we should discuss it latter as this topic is just so vast! We can deal with one topic at a time.

At what point does God decide to do this and why? Surely there would be some people who disbelieve who would, later in life, believe and thus not need to be punished so severely

No you don't understand! If these people are later going to believe in their life, then why should they be punished at all?! I've also said it above that if people would repent, Allah would forgive them for sins as heinous as Shirk!

The people who we are talking about here, are those who are ignorant and so stubborn that they would NEVER EVER believe! And Allah knows it already!

- isn't this just pre-judgement from God? Of course, perhaps God only places seals on people that it already knows will never believe, but in that case why bother putting the seal in place?

I don't think we are understanding the meaning of "putting seal on someone's heart" correctly. :-\
Maybe this would help.
People say that good happenings are from Allah and when something bad happens to them, they blame each other. But Allah says that whatever happens to a person is what is from Allah.
So these people, though their own crimes have brought it upon themselves, but still Allah says that it is from Him; that Allah has put seal on their heart.

Now if I had known more verses of the Quran, I could have explained it better in their light but I don't know more. Maybe the other brothers or sisters here would help? :statisfie

I wouldn't presume to 'know' anything about God - note my use of the word 'may' in that statement you were quoting. Have you read any statement that says God will forgive everyone, believer and unbeliever alike, after some finite time?

Yeah i read it in one post in this thread

It is mentioned in Surah Al Anaam Verses 128

....(But) He will say : The Fire shall be your abode, therein to abide - unless God wills it otherwise. Verily your Sustainer is Wise, All Knowing!"


"Unless God Wills otherwise".. means according to many Muslim Theologians that Unless Allah (swt) has Mercy on them and ends their suffering in Hell. So the Blissful life of Paradise is Eternal and forever, BUT the suffering of the Fire is not Forever and is only Limited, depending on the Evil that the people of the fire committed in this Life....

That is why i am sincerely suggesting you to read all other posts here. InshAllah that would help.

And some other verses

39:53-55 Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah. for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Turn ye to our Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (Will), before the Penalty comes on you: after that ye shall not be helped. And follow the best of (the courses) revealed to you from your Lord, before the Penalty comes on you - of a sudden while ye perceive not!


4:17-18 Allah accepts the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and foolishness and repent soon afterwards; it is they to whom Allah will forgive and Allah is Ever All Knower, All Wise. And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says: "Now I repent;" nor of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful torment.

Peace!

 

[DuncG]

An33za,

Thanks again for the detailed response.

Ok, I understand that there may be orders of severity for different crimes. I believe I read at some place on this board that disbelief was the worst crime, but I don't think it really affects the principle of the argument if shirk is worse. At the end of the day, shirk is also an opinion and so falls under the same point I made in my previous post: that I don't see how it can be worse than all those crimes that cause death and gratuitous physical suffering.

And about justification, we have already tried to clear that point and my answer still remains same that the person would never have learned even if they were given a life of eternity. Allah knows it as He can see our future too, so therefore the punishment is justified.

Yes, this does seem to be the sticking point. If you're happy accepting that as a justification then that's good for you, but I simply cannot see how this avoids punishing someone for what they haven't done. For example, if the same standard was applied across the board, would anyone get out of Hell? I've read in the other posts that some muslims will be in Hell for a limited amount of time to pay for the crimes that they committed, after which they will be released. However, if you used the same principle to ask 'what if they lived forever?' then surely they would, over the course of eternity, commit an infinite amount of crimes similar to the ones they are being punished for in Hell after their finite lifetime. Therefore, if the same standard is applied, they should also be punished for eternity for the things that they would do.

So why does this double-standard exist? Why look to the eternal future of an immortal unbeliever or person committing shirk, yet not to the eternal future of a believer that has committed crimes worthy of punishment?

This applies equally to the point by Muslimeen that you quoted. It is also true that muslims that sin only stop sinning when death comes to them, therefore they should receive a similar eternal punishment.

But the post by Muslimeen does not address why it is just to punish someone for something they haven't done. If someone arrested you today and imprisoned you for a crime that you would commit if you lived to 178 years of age, then I think that you would agree that was unjust. If you believe someone should be continually punished for a crime that was only stopped when they died, then you are already accepting that punishing someone for things they haven't done is ok - but you haven't explained why it's ok. That's the explanation I'm looking for and it's not in any of the posts in this thread, as far as I can see.


Regarding God putting seals on peoples' hearts, I agree that we should leave that for a future discussion. There's all sorts of complications with predestination that would follow from that, which would derail too much.


Regarding that passage from syed_z that you quoted - unfortunately I don't see where it says that 'God will forgive everyone, believer and unbeliever alike, after some finite time', as I asked about previously. Saying that 'you will abide in Hell unless God wills it otherwise' does not say that God will ever will that - it only means that God might will it. God might will to forgive an unbeliever or someone who commits shirk, but there's nothing I've read that states categorically that God will definitely forgive these sins. As I also pointed out earlier, if God forgives some unbelievers and not others, then this simply looks capricious and therefore unjust.

Lastly, the verses you quoted at the end appear to be more about repentance than forgiveness - the forgiveness appears to be conditional on repentance. This doesn't really address what happens to unbelievers who die without repenting or people who commit shirk that may have repented to the wrong deity. Indeed, 4:17-18 makes clear that disbelievers are going to receive a 'painful torment' - there's no mention of whether this is finite or infinite.


I know, as you say, that you are no expert on these theological points, so it would be good if others could also comment. But I'd like to ask these questions anyway as a means to exploring the ethical foundations of Islam.

 

[Muslimeen]

An33za,

This applies equally to the point by Muslimeen that you quoted. It is also true that muslims that sin only stop sinning when death comes to them, therefore they should receive a similar eternal punishment.

But the foundation is there. He believed in Allah, even though he was a sinner. To understand this you need to understand how great a GIFT this Imaan(Faith in Allah) is, how valuable it is in the eyes of Allah. A person can loose everything in his life, parents, wife, children, wealth, house, cars, clothes and even his food, but that is just a very small loss. Loose your Imaan and you have lost everything. A king without Imaan is a pauper and a begger with Imaan is a King. Allah does not descriminate on ones skin colour, age, sex, financial status or anything material of this world. All Allah asks of us is to believe in him and do righteous deeds. That is all, I don't think this is asking for too much. In fact Allah will even ask the disbelievers on the day of Judgement, "if they are prepared to ransom themselves with the whole capacity of the earth in gold?" They will reply, "Yes". Allah will say to them, "I asked you for much less than that". But they did not accept.

“Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers – never would the (whole) capacity of the earth in gold be accepted from one of them if he would (seek to) ransom himself with it. For those there will be a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers.” (Quran 3:91)

An33za,
But the post by Muslimeen does not address why it is just to punish someone for something they haven't done. If someone arrested you today and imprisoned you for a crime that you would commit if you lived to 178 years of age, then I think that you would agree that was unjust. If you believe someone should be continually punished for a crime that was only stopped when they died, then you are already accepting that punishing someone for things they haven't done is ok - but you haven't explained why it's ok. That's the explanation I'm looking for and it's not in any of the posts in this thread, as far as I can see.

When you write an exam you are given only 2 or 3 hours to complete. If you pass it in that time well and good, you can go on and live a successful life. If you fail too bad, you can go on living as an illiterate for the rest of your life. You surely cannot accept Allah to give them life for an eternity, Allah in his infinite wisdom knows the condition of every persons heart. Though there will be varying stages in Jahannam where every person even the disbelievers will be treated according to their evils.

Some things are best left in the hands of Allah, his decision and decree will come to pass. None has the power to change that. If he has decided they will burn forever then for me that is right. They should indeed burn forever, they are his creation, he will do with them as he pleases. You tend to harbour on the fact that Allah is unjust, but here is a story I heard of what Allah asked Noah (AS) to do after he prayed to Allah to destroy his people because of their disbelief. I am writing it out of memory so please excuse any errors of omissions.

After Allah destroy the people of Nuh (AS), Allah asked him to build clay pots for him. Nuh (AS) started to build these pots, with great care and pride, because it was for Allah. After he was done building these pots very happy with himself and really admiring how beautiful they looked. He presents them to Allah. Allah then commands him to break them, it is the command of Allah so he has no choice, but does this with a very heavy heart. As he breaks them he starts to weep, he had taken so much time and trouble to build them at the first, now he has got to break them.
Upon seeing this Allah asks Nuh (AS), "Why are you crying" he replies "Because you asked me to break the pots that I have built with so much dedication and hard work" Allah replies "Oh Nuh, you are crying over clay pots, which cannot help anyone, they are lifeless, but I destroyed my creation who had life, because you asked me to, even though they did not believe in me, they were still my creation, imagine how much pain I must have felt in destroying them."

Allah does not take pleasure in punishing or destroying anyone. If you find yourself in the fire of Hell for an eternity, you have no one to blame but yourself. So the sooner you accept this reality the better. May allah guide us. Ameen.

 

[syed_z]

@DuncG

Regarding that passage from syed_z that you quoted - unfortunately I don't see where it says that 'God will forgive everyone, believer and unbeliever alike, after some finite time', as I asked about previously. Saying that 'you will abide in Hell unless God wills it otherwise' does not say that God will ever will that - it only means that God might will it. God might will to forgive an unbeliever or someone who commits shirk, but there's nothing I've read that states categorically that God will definitely forgive these sins. As I also pointed out earlier, if God forgives some unbelievers and not others, then this simply looks capricious and therefore unjust.

So from where I see sister Aneeza has already said many times to you to look at all posts… which you did not do… so I guess we have to Post it again… we can for you to help you understand… but you should also cooperate while asking questions…

So I posted this…

It is mentioned in Surah Al Anaam Verses 128

....(But) He will say : The Fire shall be your abode, therein to abide - unless God wills it otherwise. Verily your Sustainer is Wise, All Knowing!"


"Unless God Wills otherwise".. means according to many Muslim Theologians that Unless Allah (swt) has Mercy on them and ends their suffering in Hell. So the Blissful life of Paradise is Eternal and forever, BUT the suffering of the Fire is not Forever and is only Limited, depending on the Evil that the people of the fire committed in this Life....

In a well Authentic Tradition The Apostle of Allah (saw) said "(on the day of Judgment), those who deserve Paradise will enter Paradise, and those who deserve Fire, the fire. Thereupon God, the Sublimely Exalted, will say, 'Take out (of the fire) every one in whose heart there was as much of Faith (or, in some versions, "as much good") as a grain of a mustard seed!' And so they will be taken out of it, already blackened, and will be thrown in to the River of Life; and they will come to life (sprout) as a herb sprouts by the side of the stream: and did you not see how it comes out yellow and budding?"

(Bukhari, on the authority of Abu Said al-Khudri (r.a), in Kitab Al-Iman)

Since Quran mentions....


(16:44) We raised the Messengers earlier with Clear Signs and Divine Books, and We have now sent down this Reminder upon you that you may elucidate to people the teaching that has been sent down for them and that the people may themselves reflect.


So Muhammad (Saw) was the expounder of the Quran and so he explained in a Hadith which i have quoted above which explains that HOW those people will be saved....and what types of People will be saved... meaning those who have to have ATLEAST a dot of goodness, and the Verse where Allah (swt) says .."Unless Allah Wills Otherwise"...does not differentiate about the ones who committed Shirk or not... niether does the Hadith... so this should make it clear for you...

believe I read at some place on this board that disbelief was the worst crime, but I don't think it really affects the principle of the argument if shirk is worse. At the end of the day, shirk is also an opinion and so falls under the same point I made in my previous post: that I don't see how it can be worse than all those crimes that cause death and gratuitous physical suffering.

Please Refer to Post #34..... help yourself can't repeat it sorry

For example, if the same standard was applied across the board, would anyone get out of Hell? I've read in the other posts that some muslims will be in Hell for a limited amount of time to pay for the crimes that they committed, after which they will be released. However, if you used the same principle to ask 'what if they lived forever?' then surely they would, over the course of eternity, commit an infinite amount of crimes similar to the ones they are being punished for in Hell after their finite lifetime. Therefore, if the same standard is applied, they should also be punished for eternity for the things that they would do.

So why does this double-standard exist? Why look to the eternal future of an immortal unbeliever or person committing shirk, yet not to the eternal future of a believer that has committed crimes worthy of punishment?

This applies equally to the point by Muslimeen that you quoted. It is also true that muslims that sin only stop sinning when death comes to them, therefore they should receive a similar eternal punishment.

But the post by Muslimeen does not address why it is just to punish someone for something they haven't done. If someone arrested you today and imprisoned you for a crime that you would commit if you lived to 178 years of age, then I think that you would agree that was unjust. If you believe someone should be continually punished for a crime that was only stopped when they died, then you are already accepting that punishing someone for things they haven't done is ok - but you haven't explained why it's ok. That's the explanation I'm looking for and it's not in any of the posts in this thread, as far as I can see.

1st of all brother i would like to thank you for asking that Question...


What you said regarding Muslims IF were allowed to Live forever, and they would continue doing crimes and there fore their Punishment should also be for eternity, just as how Allah (Swt) judges a disbeliever or a Mushrik (one who commits Shirk) and sentences them to Hell forever.... so the Hadith Mentioned above of those being brought out of hell the ones, who have even a goodness equivalent to an extent of a Dot will be taken out.... that includes Muslims and Non Muslims... so this should explain...

2nd Point that i would like to make... that Not the mushriks and Not the Disbelievers, rather the Hypocrites (Munafiqs) will be in the LOWEST depth of the Hell Fire.. as Quran speaks....


(4:145) Verily the Hypocrites Shall be in the Lowest Depth of the fire, and you will find none who could them. (146) But excepted shall be they who repent and live righteously....


So the one to be in the Lowest Depths, which means lowest and there is NO lower than this one, would be those Muslims, who pretend to be with Muslims and are not Just pretending and living and with in their Hearts they are NOT actual believers... now what is a the criteria to be a Hypocrite... Muhammad (Saw) clearly mentioned their Characteristics and Quran explains them, but that another Discussion...don't want to go there... but you can ask questions if youd like to to... so my point was to tell you that Muslims who are just Muslim by Name does not entitle them to A Paradise forever....because Quran Addresses the Muslims, else where that just how Kafirs (Disbelievers) can fail in the Test of their Lives Muslims and Believers can ALSO!...


(8:25)And beware of that temptation to evil which does not befall only those who are bent on denying the Truth (i.e Disbelievers, Kafirs), to the exclusion of the others; and God is severe in Retribution.

by Allah (swt) saying... Temptation to Evil (i.e Tests and Trials).....since this Life is nothing but a Test for all Mankind, Allah (Swt)/God admonishes the Muslims as well, that BE AWARE... just as how the Disbelievers disbelieved and have gone astray from the path, you TOO will be led astray in this Test of life, if you do not remain Conscious of God, and therefore do NOT think that just because you have accepted Islam or born or raised in a Muslim family, you are entitled to Jannah (Paradise)... it is only God Consciousness at all times, for a person that can save them from Eternal Hell fire or Suffering in Hell fire because then one does good at all times...so that should Clarify the Muslims not getting a Privilege if they do crimes or acts, like Disbelievers...

This doesn't really address what happens to unbelievers who die without repenting or people who commit shirk that may have repented to the wrong deity. Indeed, 4:17-18 makes clear that disbelievers are going to receive a 'painful torment' - there's no mention of whether this is finite or infinite.

These Verses do NOT mention only Believers Repenting... they mentions about Muslims and Non Muslims Repenting... as the Verses say... those who do evil deeds... meaning Allah/God is the Most Just... He only punishes them if they have done Evil deeds...



Quran mentions ....

".. for all shall be judged according to their conscious deeds - and your Sustainer in NOT unaware of what they do." (6:132)


DuncG you did not look at post #34... i mentioned this Verse as well it explains How Allah (swt) deals with Justice...

if you have more Questions ask... Insha Allah (If Allah Wills) we brothers/sisters can answer for you ...

 

[Masuma]

But I'd like to ask these questions anyway as a means to exploring the ethical foundations of Islam.

No, no! There lies the whole problem! If you really want to explore the ethical foundations of Islam, then please ask scholars and knowledgeable people. We here on this forum, only presents our views to others which can be wrong too.

In this way what if you'll get a wrong picture of the whole thing?! :exhausted
So I suggest to just take it as our opinion and not the final binding words.

Ok, I understand that there may be orders of severity for different crimes. I believe I read at some place on this board that disbelief was the worst crime,

Yeah so we need to confirm that too. Also that what punishment disbelievers will get? Will it also be an eternal punishment for them or not? And whether disbelieving can be considered as Shirk?

but I don't think it really affects the principle of the argument if shirk is worse. At the end of the day, shirk is also an opinion and so falls under the same point I made in my previous post: that I don't see how it can be worse than all those crimes that cause death and gratuitous physical suffering.

As I told you before, that this question is really good and I myself would like to know why. I have yet to read the following posts of my scholar brothers here :statisfie, maybe they've already clarified it?!

And just adding my opinion; I think that Shirk is a worst crime because it is a clear cut rebellion against the Lord of all worlds!!! Astaghfirullah! Allah, who has created everything would not stand this association of partners with Allah. I mean it makes sense to me that someone who invites you to his home, takes so much perfect care of you that you yourself is overwhelmed by his generosity; and then when the time comes for you to leave, instead of thanking him, you start thanking other people or even trees and rocks! How angry it would make your host?!

Yes, this does seem to be the sticking point. If you're happy accepting that as a justification then that's good for you, but I simply cannot see how this avoids punishing someone for what they haven't done.

I'm so tired, m sorry! But i am simply repeating myself over and over again!
"These people HAVE done shirk and they would love to CONTINUE doing Shirk if they are given the chance. These people would never want to GIVE UP shirk no matter what!

For example, if the same standard was applied across the board, would anyone get out of Hell? I've read in the other posts that some muslims will be in Hell for a limited amount of time to pay for the crimes that they committed, after which they will be released. However, if you used the same principle to ask 'what if they lived forever?' then surely they would, over the course of eternity, commit an infinite amount of crimes similar to the ones they are being punished for in Hell after their finite lifetime. Therefore, if the same standard is applied, they should also be punished for eternity for the things that they would do.

Now note that we are talking about MUSLIMS here. A Muslim by definition means one who submits his/her will to Allah.

Now note that no human is perfect. Everyone of us do so many mistakes in our lifetime and latter repent for it (or not).

Same is the case with Muslims. Yes Muslims too commit many crimes in their life but do they commit SHIRK?

If they commit Shirk, and don't repent for it till death approaches them, then they would TOO burn in hell for eternity!

But if these Muslims did some OTHER type of crime, less severe than SHIRK, then as the verse says, "Allah can forgive all other crimes except Shirk if He wills". :statisfie

So the eternal punishment is for those who DO SHIRK! The "things" that these Muslims did, they will be punished according to the severity of their crimes!

So why does this double-standard exist? Why look to the eternal future of an immortal unbeliever or person committing shirk, yet not to the eternal future of a believer that has committed crimes worthy of punishment?

No double standards!"These crimes worth of punishment" will be definitely taken in account but it is ONLY Shirk (as far as I know) which is worthy of eternal punishment.

Now I think that we should be asking question as to

"Why Shirk and disbelieving considered such a big crime in Islam?"

And I too would love to know the answer.

But the post by Muslimeen does not address why it is just to punish someone for something they haven't done.

Now I am this ------> :skeleton:

These people HAVE already DONE shirk and they love keep on doing it.

I would try to give an own-made example but I think it won't work.

Now there is a rapist who has raped 50 girls and he would keep wanting to continue doing it. He has many times been warned but he won't stop! He has plans to NEVER EVER give it up as he has never been caught.

One day he makes a plan to find a new catch but fortunately he was accidentally trampled, crushed and squashed like a filthy bug by a trolley. So what do you think he should be punished for? Yeah he SHOULD be punished for the 50 rapes he did but what about those he was PLANING to do? What about this feeling that he would NEVER EVER give this up???

So an eternal is totally justified!

Regarding that passage from syed_z that you quoted - unfortunately I don't see where it says that 'God will forgive everyone, believer and unbeliever alike, after some finite time', as I asked about previously

No what I wanted to clarify was this that God will forgive people for the crimes that they did if He wills, except Shirk.

So when Allah is forgiving someone, then that automatically makes it a "finite" punishment because the person is no more going to suffer.

4:48Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

4:116Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).

Saying that 'you will abide in Hell unless God wills it otherwise' does not say that God will ever will that - it only means that God might will it. God might will to forgive an unbeliever or someone who commits shirk, but there's nothing I've read that states categorically that God will definitely forgive these sins.

Yeah I know. It is funny...duuno why but it is! ;D Look, I can only say that Allah will forgive many people, like one statement which I quoted before where Allah is forgiving a person who truly recited Shahadah in his/her life.

I know you are asking about the "surety" of God forgiving but I don't have any. I think no one has. But know that brother, Allah is the most merciful! You don't realize it now because you are an Atheist, but you can at least TRY. And look at it this way.

You are living in a Earth which belongs to Allah;the very air you are breathing is made by Allah. Your EVERYTHING is actually Allah's possession! And you are DENYING even His existence?! If He wants it, He can surely take it from you but don't you realize that He has still not taken everything back?! And He is still keep giving you chances to come back to Him?!

And to tell you the truth, you have so far been questioning about God's justice but you know what I feel? I feel YOU (Atheists, Agnostics etc) to be the most unjust person in reality!

As I also pointed out earlier, if God forgives some unbelievers and not others, then this simply looks capricious and therefore unjust.

God didn't ask these "others" to commit Shirk?! God even warned them over and over again against it! But these people didn't listen! Some unbelievers who are forgiven were those who committed OTHER type of crimes, NOT shirk!

Lastly, the verses you quoted at the end appear to be more about repentance than forgiveness - the forgiveness appears to be conditional on repentance. This doesn't really address what happens to unbelievers who die without repenting or people who commit shirk that may have repented to the wrong deity.

Yes I think that there is a condition for forgiveness and that is "through repentance".
Now I also need to confirm whether Allah forgives without repentance or not?!

And I don't know whether it addresses to "what happens to unbelievers who die without repenting", because as I said before, I don't know what is the punishment of unbelievers but this totally addresses to "people who commit shirk that may have repented to wrong deity". These people will burn in hell for forever!

Indeed, 4:17-18 makes clear that disbelievers are going to receive a 'painful torment' - there's no mention of whether this is finite or infinite.

Yeah totally! But I only got hold of one verse of the Quran. :embarrass And so I posted it. There would be many many verses explaining this further (of whether it is a finite punishment or infinite) and I have yet to read them. :embarrass

And yeah I'm sorry for saying that I'm tired! You can ask as many questions as you want brother!

 

[DuncG]

Thanks to those that have replied to my points. Unfortunately I've got to be away for a few days, so I hope to get back to you early(ish) next week. Have a good rest-of-week and a nice weekend!

 

[Asiyah3]

It's always appeared to me that Hell, as a concept, is unjust.

Peace,

You don't believe in hell. Why waste your time on the punishment or it's justice?

 

[DuncG]

Muslimeen,

But the foundation is there. He believed in Allah, even though he was a sinner. To understand this you need to understand how great a GIFT this Imaan(Faith in Allah) is, how valuable it is in the eyes of Allah. A person can loose everything in his life, parents, wife, children, wealth, house, cars, clothes and even his food, but that is just a very small loss. Loose your Imaan and you have lost everything. A king without Imaan is a pauper and a begger with Imaan is a King. Allah does not descriminate on ones skin colour, age, sex, financial status or anything material of this world.

So in what way does this justify eternal punishment for disbelievers and only limited punishment for believers? How do you go from ‘you didn’t believe such-and-such, therefore you deserve eternal punishment’, to ‘you did believe such-and-such, therefore you’ll have only a limited punishment? Why is justice predicated on belief in this significant case, rather than on the crimes committed that brought pain/suffering/death to others?

All Allah asks of us is to believe in him and do righteous deeds. That is all, I don't think this is asking for too much. In fact Allah will even ask the disbelievers on the day of Judgement, "if they are prepared to ransom themselves with the whole capacity of the earth in gold?" They will reply, "Yes". Allah will say to them, "I asked you for much less than that". But they did not accept.

Well, I’m sure if you were offered all the gold in the world you wouldn’t become an atheist or a member of another religion. This appears to be a point of principle – you can’t simply buy someone else’s honest change of opinion. That looks like a trick question to me – anyone who accepts the gold obviously doesn’t value their own personal integrity.

If he has decided they will burn forever then for me that is right. They should indeed burn forever, they are his creation, he will do with them as he pleases.

Well, this appears to be an Appeal to Authority, rather than a reasoned explanation of why something is or is not just.

It’s not just eternal punishment that appears unjust here – doing as you please with something you create isn’t always justified: a builder, in some cases, cannot burn down the building that he has created, especially if there are other people in it. This also appears to imply a certain lack of responsibility – if we could create independent, sentient life forms, would we really be justified as treating them however we wanted? (This issue has been explored in some depth in dozens of science fiction novels regarding artificial intelligences, for example.)

You tend to harbour on the fact that Allah is unjust, but here is a story I heard of what Allah asked Noah (AS) to do after he prayed to Allah to destroy his people because of their disbelief. I am writing it out of memory so please excuse any errors of omissions.

Well, the justifiability of God’s punishment is the subject of this thread and it’s a subject that interests me greatly as it affects the way people generate their ethical systems and how they approach justice.

Unfortunately I cannot see much justice involved with the story you provided. It appears more as an appeal from God for Noah to empathise with God’s pain and recognise that the loss of some pots isn’t a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. There are no explanations there as to why certain actions are justified.

Allah does not take pleasure in punishing or destroying anyone. If you find yourself in the fire of Hell for an eternity, you have no one to blame but yourself.

I can’t really accept that when it’s not us who make the rules. In Islam it appears that it is God that prescribes the law and the consequent punishments for transgression. God designed the system and therefore shoulders a significant responsibility for its consequences. As I’ve pointed out, eternal punishment for finite crimes doesn’t appear to have a reasoned justification – it is clearly disproportionate punishment.

 

[DuncG]

Syed_Z,

Thanks for your detailed response.

"Unless God Wills otherwise".. means according to many Muslim Theologians that Unless Allah (swt) has Mercy on them and ends their suffering in Hell. So the Blissful life of Paradise is Eternal and forever, BUT the suffering of the Fire is not Forever and is only Limited, depending on the Evil that the people of the fire committed in this Life....

Unfortunately I still don’t see how the limited nature of Hell can be derived from the statement ‘… unless God wills otherwise …’ This is a conditional statement that in no ways declares that God will decide to have mercy on all of those that are committed to Hell. If God is going to have mercy (eventually) on everyone, then why is eternal punishment even mentioned or considered at all?

In a well Authentic Tradition The Apostle of Allah (saw) said "(on the day of Judgment), those who deserve Paradise will enter Paradise, and those who deserve Fire, the fire. Thereupon God, the Sublimely Exalted, will say, 'Take out (of the fire) every one in whose heart there was as much of Faith (or, in some versions, "as much good") as a grain of a mustard seed!' And so they will be taken out of it, already blackened, and will be thrown in to the River of Life; and they will come to life (sprout) as a herb sprouts by the side of the stream: and did you not see how it comes out yellow and budding?"

So what about those that have not even as much ‘good’ or ‘faith’ as a grain of a mustard seed? This statement implies that those people will not be forgiven.

These statements that you’ve quoted and similar ones that I’ve read in this thread make it clear that some, but not all, people will be released from Hell. However, this misses the point of this thread: some people will not be released and will therefore receive an eternal punishment. Now, it may be a tiny minority of people that receive eternal punishment, but the questions still stands regardless: how is eternal punishment justified for limited, mortal humans that can only commit a limited amount of crimes in their lives? Why is the punishment infinitely disproportionate to the transgressions?

If you believe that all those that enter Hell will, after some finite time, be forgiven and removed, then this question doesn’t apply to you. Perhaps it would make an interesting subject for a poll on the forum: who here believes that some will be punished in Hell for eternity?

What you said regarding Muslims IF were allowed to Live forever, and they would continue doing crimes and there fore their Punishment should also be for eternity, just as how Allah (Swt) judges a disbeliever or a Mushrik (one who commits Shirk) and sentences them to Hell forever.... so the Hadith Mentioned above of those being brought out of hell the ones, who have even a goodness equivalent to an extent of a Dot will be taken out.... that includes Muslims and Non Muslims... so this should explain...

Again, as above, this addresses those that will be released from Hell, not those that will not. I think what would help here is if you could clarify whether you believe if anyone will suffer an eternal punishment.

Regarding the discussion of shirk, hypocrites etc. and the position of these crimes on the scale of punishment – I agree, it is another whole topic. It would be interesting to go over this in future to investigate the justifications for why some of these crimes are considered worse than others, but I think it would be better not to derail this thread at present.

 

[DuncG]

An33za,

If you really want to explore the ethical foundations of Islam, then please ask scholars and knowledgeable people. We here on this forum, only presents our views to others which can be wrong too.

In this way what if you'll get a wrong picture of the whole thing?!
So I suggest to just take it as our opinion and not the final binding words.

Sure, I appreciate that. But, at the end of the day, any ideology is only as good as the understanding of its proponents. I’m unlikely to ever have any interaction with islamic scholars, but getting a general understanding of what muslims believe and how they form their ethical basis is what’s important to me.

These people HAVE done shirk and they would love to CONTINUE doing Shirk if they are given the chance. These people would never want to GIVE UP shirk no matter what!

Ok, so do you believe it’s justified to punish someone for something they’ve only thought of doing as if they’ve actually done it? Do you really consider thinking and doing as equivalent actions that merit identical punishments? If you do, please can you explain how thinking about an action and committing that action cause the same amount of suffering and thus merit equivalent punishment.

Now note that we are talking about MUSLIMS here. A Muslim by definition means one who submits his/her will to Allah.

Now note that no human is perfect. Everyone of us do so many mistakes in our lifetime and latter repent for it (or not).

Same is the case with Muslims. Yes Muslims too commit many crimes in their life but do they commit SHIRK?

If they commit Shirk, and don't repent for it till death approaches them, then they would TOO burn in hell for eternity!

But if these Muslims did some OTHER type of crime, less severe than SHIRK, then as the verse says, "Allah can forgive all other crimes except Shirk if He wills".

So the eternal punishment is for those who DO SHIRK! The "things" that these Muslims did, they will be punished according to the severity of their crimes!

This appears to contradict what Syed_Z was talking about with regard to having goodness equivalent to a mustard seed. That appears to make clear that even those who do commit shirk will be forgiven if they’re even slightly good. The only way that these two statements would not contradict is if every person who commits shirk does not have a trace of goodness in them.

But I don’t see how your comments above address my point of the double standard. Unbelievers will be punished for unbelieving when they were alive and also for the unbelieving they would have committed when they were dead, according to your justification for eternal punishment. Believers will only be punished for the crimes they committed while alive, it appears. This doesn’t have anything specifically to do with shirk.

No double standards!"These crimes worth of punishment" will be definitely taken in account but it is ONLY Shirk (as far as I know) which is worthy of eternal punishment.

Well, sure, if disbelieving is only worthy of limited punishment then that double standard does disappear. However, it’s simply replaced with the double standard of punishing those who commit a limited amount of shirk in their lifetime for eternity, while not punishing for eternity those that commit a limited amount of any other crime.

These people HAVE already DONE shirk and they love keep on doing it.

I would try to give an own-made example but I think it won't work.

Now there is a rapist who has raped 50 girls and he would keep wanting to continue doing it. He has many times been warned but he won't stop! He has plans to NEVER EVER give it up as he has never been caught.

One day he makes a plan to find a new catch but fortunately he was accidentally trampled, crushed and squashed like a filthy bug by a trolley. So what do you think he should be punished for? Yeah he SHOULD be punished for the 50 rapes he did but what about those he was PLANING to do? What about this feeling that he would NEVER EVER give this up???

So an eternal is totally justified!

As I’ve asked you above, this again comes back to whether thoughts should be punished as if they were actions. Personally I can’t see how this is justified. Punishment should be meted out in order to provide justice, where justice is required to ‘compensate’ someone else for the suffering/death/material loss they have experienced as a result of the crime. Thinking about something, no matter how evil that something would be if it was actually acted out, simply does not impact anyone else – there is no need for ‘compensation’.

What you’re effectively saying above is that this rapist should receive a limited punishment for the limited number of rapes that he committed. But then he should be punished eternally for the infinite number of rapes he would like to commit if he got the opportunity (regardless of the fact that infinite crime is physically impossible). Thus, you’re effectively admitting here that thinking about something is actually worse than committing the criminal action! I do not see how this is reasonable.

So when Allah is forgiving someone, then that automatically makes it a "finite" punishment because the person is no more going to suffer.

Sure, I recognise this. I’m interested in those that are not forgiven, as I’ve described in my post to Syed_Z, above.

Thanks again for taking so much time to address my points.

 

[DuncG]

muslimah,

You don't believe in hell. Why waste your time on the punishment or it's justice?

Because up to ~1.8 billion people on this planet do believe in the islamic Hell and I think it forms an important part of their concept of justice and punishment. I think studying the ethical foundations of an ideology is immensely important because it directly influences how the followers of that ideology behave towards other people (including how they enact their own judicial systems).

That being said, do you have a justification as to why eternal punishment is merited for some people?

 

[Asiyah3]

muslimah,



Because up to ~1.8 billion people on this planet do believe in the islamic Hell and I think it forms an important part of their concept of justice and punishment. I think studying the ethical foundations of an ideology is immensely important because it directly influences how the followers of that ideology behave towards other people (including how they enact their own judicial systems).

That being said, do you have a justification as to why eternal punishment is merited for some people?

“He cannot be questioned as to what He does, while they will be questioned”

[al-Anbiya’ 21:23]

 

[Lynx]

“He cannot be questioned as to what He does, while they will be questioned”

[al-Anbiya’ 21:23]

you know, if you had someone on the brink of conversion to Islam, and the only thing stopping him was an explanation of the eternal hellfire thing, and you provided that verse as justification, you'd have an unsatisfied potential convert? that verse only works as justification if you are already muslim ;p

i know what you;re getting at though and i think essentially your answer is the best one. the question is sure a tough one and it represents one of the hurdles that islam as a coherent system has to face.

 

[Asiyah3]

you know, if you had someone on the brink of conversion to Islam, and the only thing stopping him was an explanation of the eternal hellfire thing, and you provided that verse as justification, you'd have an unsatisfied potential convert? that verse only works as justification if you are already muslim ;p

I wasn't trying to make Da'wah. But thanks.

i know what you;re getting at though and i think essentially your answer is the best one. the question is sure a tough one and it represents one of the hurdles that islam as a coherent system has to face.

I personally don't have any problem with good being rewarded and evil punished.

 

[syed_z]

So what about those that have not even as much ‘good’ or ‘faith’ as a grain of a mustard seed? This statement implies that those people will not be forgiven.

These statements that you’ve quoted and similar ones that I’ve read in this thread make it clear that some, but not all, people will be released from Hell. However, this misses the point of this thread: some people will not be released and will therefore receive an eternal punishment. Now, it may be a tiny minority of people that receive eternal punishment, but the questions still stands regardless: how is eternal punishment justified for limited, mortal humans that can only commit a limited amount of crimes in their lives? Why is the punishment infinitely disproportionate to the transgressions?

Again, as above, this addresses those that will be released from Hell, not those that will not. I think what would help here is if you could clarify whether you believe if anyone will suffer an eternal punishment.

Sure DuncG....


See your making the same mistake which you made before..... as i had told you please refer to post #31... but you didn't if you would have, then you would not be posing the question as to why Would the TIny minority who dont even have a dot of a goodness will be punished for ever...... also your question is answered by the Quran as to why some people would burn in Hell for longer or some may even burn forever , even though their life time compared to the hereafter is shorter.... and so logically they should suffer for shorter time.... okay since you did not read post #31...


Now lets see whether all our actions stop when we die OR are there are actions for which we do get blessings or get cursed even after we die ? Good or Bad ? Yes we do...


and so a good Person also keeps getting blessings in the Unseen World, when he/she enters after performing such actions which still continue in this world after he is gone...

Narrated Abu Huraira (r.a) Allah's Messenger (saw) said "When a person is dead, his deeds cease except for three:
a) Deeds of continuous Sadaqah (any act of charity), eg. an orphan home (orphanage) or a well for giving water to drink.
b) Knowledge with which mankind benefits.
c) A righteous pious son/daughter who begs Allah to forgive his (or her) parents."

(Sahih Muslim Book of Wasaya (Wills and Testaments)


so even if a person does initiate a good deed or something very beneficial for mankind, which benefits them in any way even though that person left, they would still keep getting blessings of their good deed even though they are in the Spiritual World.... now the same case applies for those who initiate an evil deed in the society, or any immoral activity or any evil which continues even if the person has left the world.... and so thats why i posted this in post#31...

Also another Important point to mention here is that...there would be many who would suffer for very long time... and that is also explained in the Quran as to why would that happen...


"Hence, on Ressurection Day they shall bear the full weight of their burdens, as well as some of the burdens of those ignorant ones whom they have led astray: oh, how evil the load with which they shall be burdened." (Al Quran 16:25)

..so the ones who initiated any thing, like any evil in the society and however many people become part of that evil and do it, that person will not only gain the Sin of his own doing, but ALL those who followed his example, he would bear the burden of their evil acts as well..... and so this would Double His Suffering...

so now comin back to your Question.... How come those people who lived in their lives for limited number of years, will be suffering in Hell for unlimited time ?.... so if some one initiated an evil of Alcoholism in a particular society... no matter how many people follow that evil deed and however many people use it and abuse it and however much domestic violence is increased and people suffer and families are destroyed.... that person who initiated it, will carry his own burden as well as the burden of others..... this is why the minority which you speak of will suffer , because their evil would be of so enormous , that they might be made to suffer forever....

Similar the case of Prostitution, whoever initiated it in a society, for example some one initiated Prostitution in any country, and after he left the world, people followed his idea and continued doing it, and it weakened the soceities moral level... the ones who started it, would bear the burden of all those Pimps and Prostitutes who would initiate and the pimps also would inturn bear the burden of the sin of the Prostitute, as well as all those pimps whom one of them trained how to be one..... and this is how the burden of evil deeds are made to be borne by those who are part of the cycle of these Evils.... BUT if any one in the cycle repents to Allah (Swt) before their death, asks for forgiveness then all their evils Allah (Swt) will forgive , and even though they might have commited big crime, Allah (Swt) would STILL forgive them if they repent truly from the heart.... this is the Mercy of God...


so this is how a person would get punished for unlimited because of initiating during his limited life, some big evil whose effect will continue in this world, and he died without repentance....

 

[Lynx]

I wasn't trying to make Da'wah. But thanks.

i know you were just pointing out ur own personal belief and how it's justified to your ownself. i was just messing a little.

I personally don't have any problem with good being rewarded and evil punished.

I would hope no one does!