Okay. However, I cannot by any means guide people to Islam. Allah alone is the one that guides whom wills.
I hope so too though it seems like some people in this thread do. :x
Eternity hellfire clarification
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muslimah,
Well, this effectively stops any form of rational enquiry into how islamic punishments are justified. I would hope that the punishments inherent in any ethical system would be justified on reasonable grounds so that it is clear to everyone why the punishment is just. If you simply have to accept them at face value then that undermines one of the central pillars of a justice system (that the perpetrator understands why they have received a punishment of a certain magnitude due to the severity of their crime).
As Lynx has pointed out, I certainly find such a situation to be unsatisfactory.
I can't help but feel that this point may have been directed at me - please correct me if I'm wrong. But what I'm investigating here is the rationale behind the magnitude of the punishment (infinite, in this case) - I am not at all against punishing people for their crimes. As pointed out above, though, what I do want to learn about is the justification for the punishment.
Well, this effectively stops any form of rational enquiry into how islamic punishments are justified. I would hope that the punishments inherent in any ethical system would be justified on reasonable grounds so that it is clear to everyone why the punishment is just. If you simply have to accept them at face value then that undermines one of the central pillars of a justice system (that the perpetrator understands why they have received a punishment of a certain magnitude due to the severity of their crime).
As Lynx has pointed out, I certainly find such a situation to be unsatisfactory.
I can't help but feel that this point may have been directed at me - please correct me if I'm wrong. But what I'm investigating here is the rationale behind the magnitude of the punishment (infinite, in this case) - I am not at all against punishing people for their crimes. As pointed out above, though, what I do want to learn about is the justification for the punishment.
syed_z,
Well, in post #31 you stated the following:
"..so the ones who initiated any thing, like any evil in the society and however many people become part of that evil and do it, that person will not only gain the Sin of his own doing, but ALL those who followed his example, he would bear the burden of their evil acts as well..... and so this would Double His Suffering...
so yes there is not an Eternal Suffering in its literal sense, but there is a time where Allah (Swt) does forgive .. BUT He does Whenever He wills...He is the Best Judge! "
When I read this previously it appeared to be clear that an eternal punishment was not forthcoming. Doubling someone's punishment does not make it infinite and you clearly pointed out that "there is not an Eternal Suffering in its literal sense".
Now, according to your latest post, it appears that you do think some people will suffer for eternity - regardless of how small this minority may be. As it's the subject of this thread and the point that concerns me most, I am only interested in those that receive an eternal punishment - I can quite understand how finite punishments can be justified.
Regarding the continued punishment of someone due to the deeds of others that follow their example, the issue here is that you're punishing someone due to what someone else has done. Should the first person who steals be punished for all other thefts after that? Likewise with murder? One problem with chains of punishment such as this is that where should the line be drawn? At what point do the acts of some future person stop being your responsibility? The passages you quote do not make that particularly clear. The other issue has to do with responsibility itself. We are all responsible for our own actions, first off. We should also be responsible for the acts of others where we've coerced, tricked or encouraged them to commit them (encouraging a child to steal in reward for some sweets etc.). But once this direct involvement in the act is no longer applicable, I fail to see how punishing someone for another’s actions is justified. Should the initial sword-maker be punished for every consequent death by the sword?
But regardless, I still see the biggest problem here is that even with these additional responsibilities the total crimes will not be infinite. We come back to the same original issue: how is infinite punishment justified against finite crimes?
I’ve thought about crimes that have long-lasting impacts (that produce a huge amount of suffering that extends beyond the life of the criminal) and the worst I can think of is if one were to release a previously eradicated virus back into the human population (say smallpox, for example). This would undoubtedly cause a huge amount of suffering and death and would deserve an extremely severe punishment. But yet, the amount of suffering it would cause would still be finite (inoculations would be repeated, or, in extremis, only those naturally resistant would survive and the virus would eventually become impotent) – once the same amount of suffering has been inflicted on the criminal in Hell, what justification remains to continue the punishment for eternity?
Well, in post #31 you stated the following:
"..so the ones who initiated any thing, like any evil in the society and however many people become part of that evil and do it, that person will not only gain the Sin of his own doing, but ALL those who followed his example, he would bear the burden of their evil acts as well..... and so this would Double His Suffering...
so yes there is not an Eternal Suffering in its literal sense, but there is a time where Allah (Swt) does forgive .. BUT He does Whenever He wills...He is the Best Judge! "
When I read this previously it appeared to be clear that an eternal punishment was not forthcoming. Doubling someone's punishment does not make it infinite and you clearly pointed out that "there is not an Eternal Suffering in its literal sense".
Now, according to your latest post, it appears that you do think some people will suffer for eternity - regardless of how small this minority may be. As it's the subject of this thread and the point that concerns me most, I am only interested in those that receive an eternal punishment - I can quite understand how finite punishments can be justified.
Regarding the continued punishment of someone due to the deeds of others that follow their example, the issue here is that you're punishing someone due to what someone else has done. Should the first person who steals be punished for all other thefts after that? Likewise with murder? One problem with chains of punishment such as this is that where should the line be drawn? At what point do the acts of some future person stop being your responsibility? The passages you quote do not make that particularly clear. The other issue has to do with responsibility itself. We are all responsible for our own actions, first off. We should also be responsible for the acts of others where we've coerced, tricked or encouraged them to commit them (encouraging a child to steal in reward for some sweets etc.). But once this direct involvement in the act is no longer applicable, I fail to see how punishing someone for another’s actions is justified. Should the initial sword-maker be punished for every consequent death by the sword?
But regardless, I still see the biggest problem here is that even with these additional responsibilities the total crimes will not be infinite. We come back to the same original issue: how is infinite punishment justified against finite crimes?
I’ve thought about crimes that have long-lasting impacts (that produce a huge amount of suffering that extends beyond the life of the criminal) and the worst I can think of is if one were to release a previously eradicated virus back into the human population (say smallpox, for example). This would undoubtedly cause a huge amount of suffering and death and would deserve an extremely severe punishment. But yet, the amount of suffering it would cause would still be finite (inoculations would be repeated, or, in extremis, only those naturally resistant would survive and the virus would eventually become impotent) – once the same amount of suffering has been inflicted on the criminal in Hell, what justification remains to continue the punishment for eternity?
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You should take that with the creator on the day of recompense? a crime is in fact not finite, it leaves an endless trail and ramifications that your mind couldn't possibly conceive.
Your presence here on this earth x 1 days takes millions of physiological and biochemical processes that you don't even bat an eyelash thinking of, let alone of the seasons, the senses, the world around you, and not only denying praise to the one who bestowed such blessings upon you x a life time but go further and make a life out of debarring men from the way of God thinking that is all so trivial and expecting to rewarded for that which you don't even believe ..
The psychology of the kaffir can be best elucidated from these few verses from the Noble Quran:
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:11 (Asad) LEAVE Me alone [to deal] with him whom I have created
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:12 (Asad) and to whom I have granted resources vast, - javascript://[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:13 (Asad) and children as [love's] witnesses,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:14 (Asad) and to whose life I gave so wide a scope:
[FONT=Verdana,Arial] [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:15 (Asad) and yet, he greedily desires that I give yet more!
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:16 (Asad) Nay, verily, it is against Our messages that he knowingly, stubbornly sets himself [7][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:17 (Asad) [and so] I shall constrain him to endure a painful uphill climb!
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:18 (Asad) Behold, [when Our messages are conveyed to one who is bent on denying the truth,] he reflects and meditates [as to how to disprove them] –
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:19 (Asad) and thus he destroys himself, [9] the way he meditates:
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:20 (Asad) yea, he destroys himself, the way he meditates!
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:21 (Asad) and then he looks [around for new arguments], -
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:22 (Asad) and then he frowns and glares,
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:23 (Asad) and in the end he turns his back [on Our message], and glories in his arrogance[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:24 (Asad) and says, "All this is mere spellbinding eloquence handed down [from olden times]!
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial]74:25 (Asad) This is nothing but the word of mortal man!"
________________
the one who created you, is well acquainted with your psychology, and what you deserve... you are in fact lucky to be judged by God and not of humans, I personally think an eternal suffering isn't enough for some of what many of you do to your fellow man, but that both your life and after life should be grievous!
all the best
[/FONT][/FONT]
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ,
In which case every crime should be punished with infinite suffering in order to be just. Is this really what you believe? There are certainly consequences that follow on from crimes, but these aren't always consequences that cause suffering. Should someone be rewarded for committing a crime that goes on to have good consequences? (Murdering someone today who would go on to instigate genocide in the future, for example.) The other problem here is the intent that goes with the crime - the explicit difference between murder and manslaughter. Such further consequences are not intended by the perpetrator unless they are obvious - do you believe it is just to punish someone for the unintended consequences of their actions? Once you go down this path then even legal, innocent actions may be cause to have you punished if they inadvertently lead to the suffering/death of others. Where do you draw the line?
Are you sure you're ok? How did you manage to get to a position where you believe another human deserves more than eternal suffering? Not only is it irrational to think there is 'more than eternity', but that is possibly the most overly vindictive statement I've ever read. It's worse than the eternal punishment of which I can still see no reasonable justification. When you consider this statement in greater depth I hope you will come to a realisation that you're over-reacting somewhat.
For my part, I wish that your life is as free from suffering and as content as possible.
In which case every crime should be punished with infinite suffering in order to be just. Is this really what you believe? There are certainly consequences that follow on from crimes, but these aren't always consequences that cause suffering. Should someone be rewarded for committing a crime that goes on to have good consequences? (Murdering someone today who would go on to instigate genocide in the future, for example.) The other problem here is the intent that goes with the crime - the explicit difference between murder and manslaughter. Such further consequences are not intended by the perpetrator unless they are obvious - do you believe it is just to punish someone for the unintended consequences of their actions? Once you go down this path then even legal, innocent actions may be cause to have you punished if they inadvertently lead to the suffering/death of others. Where do you draw the line?
Are you sure you're ok? How did you manage to get to a position where you believe another human deserves more than eternal suffering? Not only is it irrational to think there is 'more than eternity', but that is possibly the most overly vindictive statement I've ever read. It's worse than the eternal punishment of which I can still see no reasonable justification. When you consider this statement in greater depth I hope you will come to a realisation that you're over-reacting somewhat.
For my part, I wish that your life is as free from suffering and as content as possible.
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You are basing justice on emotions. Hell is a result of your deeds, my friend. Or do you really think that we believe Gos would create all this in vain?
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The punishment for crimes committed in the here and now against your fellow man do have their own prescribed penalty, the punishment can be an expiation of the sin or merely justice served for this life and an example to others if the perpetrator is unrepentant.. Whether punishment should perpetual torture or not is between s/he who committed the crime and their maker (see a theme here?)
see above reply!
It isn't a matter of suffering or not, it is a matter of justice- and justice is prescribed.. the same way your body handles an infection.... Your body doesn't want an antibiotic that is lenient, an antineoplastic that barely works, an anti-viral that is useless.. it is you or the bad guys.. if you have a difficulty recognizing that, then frankly you are quite the hypocrite..I'd give you two days exactly under severe duress and see if you can't go for the strongest medicine you can find to handle the job!
That is a rhetorical question that needs you to focus on your own country's laws... in fact I feel that for instance the animal who killed Dr. Marwa and her unborn child, should also receive the death penalty, and eternity in hell.. but he gets off with life (with three square meals and health insurance) probably that regular hard working folks aren't able to afford and a possibility of parole.. Is that justice? I don't personally think so.. is his crime infinite.. I think so.. Dr. Marwa was an exemplary pillar of her community, she was a daughter to a father who died shortly after her of a broken heart, a husband who ended up in the hospital because the police was trying to subdue him instead of the killer, an orphan son and a daughter that never made and God only knows what her contributions would have been to mankind.. So you can see that if justice was left to our personal devices, or vigilante type we not only think that eternity in hell isn't sufficient for he and his should be made to pay for his crimes in worse fashion.. the fashion of the instigator!
See above reply with detailed real life example and not some concoction of your psyche.. ultimately if you believe in God, then you'll also believe that God is just for so is one of God's greatest attributes!
I am in sinus rhythm at a rate of 65bpm, BP of 110/70, temp 98.3 and I feel OK.. thanks for asking!
I have clarified that in paragraph number 2!
Again, see previous comment.. and No, I am not over-reacting, but I think you are.. hope you take your exasperation down a few notches, and as stated in my original post, if you have a a particular grievance about the punishment of a God you don't even believe in, then take it out on the day of recompense (should there be such a day from your point of view) instead of working over time to sway others into your rather emotionally charged sentiments?
Thanks..
all the best
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Sister Unknown,
How so? I have made the point a number of times in this thread that I see a just punishment as one that is proportional to the crime in order to engender a reasonable level of recompense. By virtue of the eternal nature of suffering in hell for some people it is clear that Islam does not agree, in all cases, with this principal of proportional retribution. There is obviously a difference in what is meant by justice and I'm interested in exploring that point.
How so? I have made the point a number of times in this thread that I see a just punishment as one that is proportional to the crime in order to engender a reasonable level of recompense. By virtue of the eternal nature of suffering in hell for some people it is clear that Islam does not agree, in all cases, with this principal of proportional retribution. There is obviously a difference in what is meant by justice and I'm interested in exploring that point.
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ,
So, are you saying that the only person who can justify eternal punishment is God? If this is true then the answer to my query is that Islam has no revealed or derived justification for why eternal suffering is a just punishment. In which case it appears to be an article of faith. I'd like to know if this is really what you mean as you do endeavour to justify eternal suffering by other examples.
Justice is sought where someone has purposefully, or through negligence, caused another person suffering/death/loss of possessions. You appear to justify eternal punishment by saying that crimes have infinite consequences - consequences that are 'bad', or, in other words, that cause others to suffer. So, the issue of justifying eternal punishment rests squarely on the matter of suffering, as do all issues of justice.
No, it is not a rhetorical question. If you are justifying eternal punishment because of the claim that a crime has infinite consequences then you have to justify why the good consequences are not counted as mitigating factors. You also have the difficulty of demonstrating how any crime can generate infinite consequences in order to justify eternal punishment.
Ok, so why do you believe the crime in this case was infinite? Was infinite suffering/death generated that was deserving of eternal punishment?
I do not see how punishing him in the manner in which he committed this crime (stabbing him to death - a finite action) would be a 'worse fashion' than torturing him for eternity. Please could you clarify this in greater detail as you appear to believe that the prescribed punishment of eternal suffering is not justice enough, in certain cases.
So, are you saying that the only person who can justify eternal punishment is God? If this is true then the answer to my query is that Islam has no revealed or derived justification for why eternal suffering is a just punishment. In which case it appears to be an article of faith. I'd like to know if this is really what you mean as you do endeavour to justify eternal suffering by other examples.
Justice is sought where someone has purposefully, or through negligence, caused another person suffering/death/loss of possessions. You appear to justify eternal punishment by saying that crimes have infinite consequences - consequences that are 'bad', or, in other words, that cause others to suffer. So, the issue of justifying eternal punishment rests squarely on the matter of suffering, as do all issues of justice.
No, it is not a rhetorical question. If you are justifying eternal punishment because of the claim that a crime has infinite consequences then you have to justify why the good consequences are not counted as mitigating factors. You also have the difficulty of demonstrating how any crime can generate infinite consequences in order to justify eternal punishment.
Ok, so why do you believe the crime in this case was infinite? Was infinite suffering/death generated that was deserving of eternal punishment?
I do not see how punishing him in the manner in which he committed this crime (stabbing him to death - a finite action) would be a 'worse fashion' than torturing him for eternity. Please could you clarify this in greater detail as you appear to believe that the prescribed punishment of eternal suffering is not justice enough, in certain cases.
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1- God isn't a person, so I am not sure where you derive some of your conclusions.
2- I have no idea what you mean by said statement ''If this is true then the answer to my query is that Islam has no revealed or derived justification for why eternal suffering is a just punishment.'' Islam is to submit ones will to God, so your premise and conclusion are faulty at best.
3- Going back to point, I have no reason to 'justify' eternal punishment under any circumstance, it is again something between the individual and their creator, as such you must state your grievances on said day if you in fact believe in said day, until then I really have no reason to humor a dialogue that you have based on a hypothetical!
We are not speaking of crimes against your fellow man although that indeed might also play a part in your final destination, we are speaking of crimes against God, and yourself when in a state of kuffr. And again, I don't have to 'justify' the infinite consequences..
Who said the good isn't counted? Let me Quote the noble Quran:
99:7 Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!
99:8 And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.
Perhaps when you see your life laid out in deeds before you on said day you'll have a better understanding of divine justice, but it isn't my job to justify it for you, I have in fact laid out in my original post, some of the infinite blessings afforded you x a lifetime, which not only are you unaware of, but if aware of, are neglectful or denying their bestow from a benevolent God all together..
See previous paragraph!
I have in fact stated, that it is a lucky thing for some that their judgment doesn't lie with fellow humans, as to why it would be a 'worse fashion' it only means that he has no chance for repentance, for so long as there is life there is hope that he can redeem himself, and that is something I personally feel he isn't entitled to!
all the best
A Question to DuncG ...
Were you asked before you were put in your Mother's Womb ? Then how could you have a choice to be anything you want, as you move towards the Tomb ? I need the answer to this Question before you ASK any other Question...
God created you for your own benefit, He is Self Sufficient, Sustainer of All...
Were you asked before you were put in your Mother's Womb ? Then how could you have a choice to be anything you want, as you move towards the Tomb ? I need the answer to this Question before you ASK any other Question...
God created you for your own benefit, He is Self Sufficient, Sustainer of All...
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You know that is an excellent query.. and the only way to answer a conjecture is with another!
He conjectures that it is unfair be punished eternally for a finite lifetime, however using the same token he should acknowledge his part in the universe and that we are not finite beings but were created for eternity and that life is but a brief test for our eternal existence, that worshiping God above all else is in fact the sole purpose of existence. He can't expect a justification of a conjecture (which he clearly doesn't believe) without having to equally defend why he has fallen out of this covenant and by choice..
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ,
The entire point about this thread goes back to the OP and the issue that eternal punishment for a finite amount of time (and therefore crime committed) is apparently unjust. If you don't feel the need to justify eternal punishment, then that's fine - I would just like to know what justifications there are and see if I agree with those justifications. As you keep repeating that it should be 'taken up with the creator' then it appears to me that you don't know the justification for it and think that the best course of action is to talk to the entity that dictated the punishment. As that's rather a hypothetical course of action, I'll keep it on the back-burner for the time being - the practical conclusion being that, as far as you're aware, there is no justification for eternal punishment.
So, are you saying here that because people are in receipt of 'infinite blessings' that this justifies them being eternally punished if they transgress? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that someone has been given an 'infinite blessing' and yet is unaware and neglectful of that fact. How does this neglect constitute an infinite crime that is worthy of eternal punishment? As I asked previously, and which you appear to think this sentiment justifies, where is the infinite suffering/death generated by this transgression that corresponds to the resulting punishment? Does God suffer infinitely?
Thanks for clearing that up - I was under the impression that we were solely considering the punishment assuming that no repentance/forgiveness had been proffered.
The entire point about this thread goes back to the OP and the issue that eternal punishment for a finite amount of time (and therefore crime committed) is apparently unjust. If you don't feel the need to justify eternal punishment, then that's fine - I would just like to know what justifications there are and see if I agree with those justifications. As you keep repeating that it should be 'taken up with the creator' then it appears to me that you don't know the justification for it and think that the best course of action is to talk to the entity that dictated the punishment. As that's rather a hypothetical course of action, I'll keep it on the back-burner for the time being - the practical conclusion being that, as far as you're aware, there is no justification for eternal punishment.
So, are you saying here that because people are in receipt of 'infinite blessings' that this justifies them being eternally punished if they transgress? Let's say, for the sake of argument, that someone has been given an 'infinite blessing' and yet is unaware and neglectful of that fact. How does this neglect constitute an infinite crime that is worthy of eternal punishment? As I asked previously, and which you appear to think this sentiment justifies, where is the infinite suffering/death generated by this transgression that corresponds to the resulting punishment? Does God suffer infinitely?
Thanks for clearing that up - I was under the impression that we were solely considering the punishment assuming that no repentance/forgiveness had been proffered.
syed_z,
Those two questions appear to be rhetorical - none of us, obviously, ever had any choice in existing and being human. However, please explain how it's relevant to the topic of justifying eternal punishment, as I'd rather not derail from the subject of the thread.
Those two questions appear to be rhetorical - none of us, obviously, ever had any choice in existing and being human. However, please explain how it's relevant to the topic of justifying eternal punishment, as I'd rather not derail from the subject of the thread.
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Hello DunG, first theres some things that god has willed that we can never really explain, the fact is there are always going to be people that will go to hell and others to heaven. Second you talk about finite crimes which incur an infinite punishment, the fact is that some people will remain ignorant of the truth even if they had all the time in the world - so if they were to live eternally their sins would be infinite. Third you don't end up in heaven by doing nothing, so even if you were to recieve a finite punishment in hell you wouldn't be allowed in heaven cause you've disbelieved all your life hence earnt nothing to qualify entry to paradise.
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His questions are relevent, because if you think about it, this is the way god has created the world, He made you and you have no choice but to play by His rules and live by His system. You have no say in what is Just and what is Unjust, just like you had no say in being created.
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The 'justification' has been already been offered you, in order for you to accept or understand eternal punishment, you should by the same token understand that this is something you've agreed to before hand!
How can you not be aware? if you are truthfully not aware than no punishment shall befall you:
No Punishment until a Messenger has been sent
Written by Ibn Kathir Friday, 10 November 2006 No Punishment until a Messenger has been sent
Allah tells us that out of His justice, He does not punish anyone until He has established proof against him by sending a Messenger to him, as He says:
[تَكَادُ تَمَيَّزُ مِنَ الغَيْظِ كُلَّمَا أُلْقِىَ فِيهَا فَوْجٌ سَأَلَهُمْ خَزَنَتُهَآ أَلَمْ يَأْتِكُمْ نَذِيرٌ - قَالُواْ بَلَى قَدْ جَآءَنَا نَذِيرٌ فَكَذَّبْنَا وَقُلْنَا مَا نَزَّلَ اللَّهُ مِن شَىْءٍ إِنْ أَنتُمْ إِلاَّ فِى ضَلَـلٍ كَبِيرٍ ]
(Every time a group is cast therein, its keeper will ask: "Did no warner come to you'' They will say: "Yes, indeed a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: `Allah never sent down anything (of revelation); you are only in great error.''') (67:8-9) And,
[وَسِيقَ الَّذِينَ كَـفَرُواْ إِلَى جَهَنَّمَ زُمَراً حَتَّى إِذَا جَآءُوهَا فُتِحَتْ أَبْوَبُهَا وَقَالَ لَهُمْ خَزَنَتُهَآ أَلَمْ يَأْتِكُمْ رُسُلٌ مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُونَ عَلَيْكُمْ ءَايَـتِ رَبِّكُمْ وَيُنذِرُونَكُمْ لِقَـآءَ يَوْمِكُمْ هَـذَا قَالُواْ بَلَى وَلَـكِنْ حَقَّتْ كَلِمَةُ الْعَذَابِ عَلَى الْكَـفِرِينَ ]
(And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups, till, when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened. And its keepers will say, "Did not the Messengers come to you from yourselves - reciting to you the verses of your Lord, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours'' They will say: "Yes,'' but the Word of torment has been justified against the disbelievers!) (39:71) And,
[وَهُمْ يَصْطَرِخُونَ فِيهَا رَبَّنَآ أَخْرِجْنَا نَعْمَلْ صَـلِحاً غَيْرَ الَّذِى كُـنَّا نَعْمَلُ أَوَلَمْ نُعَمِّرْكُمْ مَّا يَتَذَكَّرُ فِيهِ مَن تَذَكَّرَ وَجَآءَكُمُ النَّذِيرُ فَذُوقُواْ فَمَا لِلظَّـلِمِينَ مِن نَّصِيرٍ ]
(Therein they will cry: "Our Lord! Bring us out, we shall do righteous good deeds, not (the evil deeds) that we used to do.'' (Allah will reply"Did We not give you lives long enough, so that whosoever would receive admonition could receive it And the warner came to you. So taste you (the evil of your deeds). For the wrongdoers there is no helper.'') (35:37) There are other Ayat which indicate that Allah will not make anyone enter Hell except after sending a Messenger to them. No Punishment until a Messenger has been sent
Allah tells us that out of His justice, He does not punish anyone until He has established proof against him by sending a Messenger to him, as He says:
[تَكَادُ تَمَيَّزُ مِنَ الغَيْظِ كُلَّمَا أُلْقِىَ فِيهَا فَوْجٌ سَأَلَهُمْ خَزَنَتُهَآ أَلَمْ يَأْتِكُمْ نَذِيرٌ - قَالُواْ بَلَى قَدْ جَآءَنَا نَذِيرٌ فَكَذَّبْنَا وَقُلْنَا مَا نَزَّلَ اللَّهُ مِن شَىْءٍ إِنْ أَنتُمْ إِلاَّ فِى ضَلَـلٍ كَبِيرٍ ]
(Every time a group is cast therein, its keeper will ask: "Did no warner come to you'' They will say: "Yes, indeed a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: `Allah never sent down anything (of revelation); you are only in great error.''') (67:8-9) And,
[وَسِيقَ الَّذِينَ كَـفَرُواْ إِلَى جَهَنَّمَ زُمَراً حَتَّى إِذَا جَآءُوهَا فُتِحَتْ أَبْوَبُهَا وَقَالَ لَهُمْ خَزَنَتُهَآ أَلَمْ يَأْتِكُمْ رُسُلٌ مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُونَ عَلَيْكُمْ ءَايَـتِ رَبِّكُمْ وَيُنذِرُونَكُمْ لِقَـآءَ يَوْمِكُمْ هَـذَا قَالُواْ بَلَى وَلَـكِنْ حَقَّتْ كَلِمَةُ الْعَذَابِ عَلَى الْكَـفِرِينَ ]
(And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups, till, when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened. And its keepers will say, "Did not the Messengers come to you from yourselves - reciting to you the verses of your Lord, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours'' They will say: "Yes,'' but the Word of torment has been justified against the disbelievers!) (39:71) And,
[وَهُمْ يَصْطَرِخُونَ فِيهَا رَبَّنَآ أَخْرِجْنَا نَعْمَلْ صَـلِحاً غَيْرَ الَّذِى كُـنَّا نَعْمَلُ أَوَلَمْ نُعَمِّرْكُمْ مَّا يَتَذَكَّرُ فِيهِ مَن تَذَكَّرَ وَجَآءَكُمُ النَّذِيرُ فَذُوقُواْ فَمَا لِلظَّـلِمِينَ مِن نَّصِيرٍ ]
(Therein they will cry: "Our Lord! Bring us out, we shall do righteous good deeds, not (the evil deeds) that we used to do.'' (Allah will reply
But that isn't really the case, surely you can't use that as a defense at this stage!.. however. in order for you to accept the premise of eternal punishment and argue against it, you must also consider in the same picture the premise of having agreed to this life and to Godly worship.. So you are really in no position to argue against one without accepting the other. You can't come and say what justification is there for an eternal hell (when obviously) considering your way of life, you don't believe in such a thing but at the same time dismiss, that this is a contract each soul held in beginning of creation! You either don't believe in both, or you believe in both, but not argue against one without the other!
In this particular fellow's case, I hope he offers no repentance, I hope he rots in this life and receive a most grievous punishment in the hereafter!
all the best
Muslim Woman
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Salaam
if u are scare of hell fire ( and u / we should be ) , then don't commit any major sin. InshaAllah we will be in Paradise .
Slaves have no rights to challenge God or raise questions like that why our Master will punish us forever in hell for disobeying Him . God gave us clear warnings; if one dares to give no attention to that , let him /her face the result.
And Allah knows Best.
if u are scare of hell fire ( and u / we should be ) , then don't commit any major sin. InshaAllah we will be in Paradise .
Slaves have no rights to challenge God or raise questions like that why our Master will punish us forever in hell for disobeying Him . God gave us clear warnings; if one dares to give no attention to that , let him /her face the result.
And Allah knows Best.
Salaam
... and in addition to what you said Brother, Adil, that Allah (swt) did not need us yet, He created us for our Own Good...and people forget to realize and iNshAllah in my next post you'll see why they do such.. why do they keep raising Million questions about some facts...