Hey Agnostics & Atheists: Do you ever worry?

[جوري]

gee wilkers to what do I this response!

Yes motives are key. If somebody's conception of "good" is defined as "God's will" and they do good only to please God and not for its own sake, they they are being obedient, not moral. Obedience is not morality, and the two can conflict. Abraham ready to murder his son for God is a good example. Other, non-religious, examples can be found repeatedly throughout human history.

That is a slogan that atheists have adopted as part of their tenets, has positively no basis in reality. Like the benefits of prayer, people will only see in it what their own psyche dictates.
Some see it as a form of exercise, some view it as spiritual growth, some see it as a time out, some see it as a therapy session. Is it anyone of those things, is it all those things.. The answer really can't be surmised by the atheist mind nor should it be left to their pedantic explanations!

How does Hell work into this doctor analogy? Nobody judges you for not becoming a doctor. You are not tortured for all eternity for not becoming a doctor.

One doesn't worship for rewards or punishments.. again that is part of the atheist credo and a way to lull themselves into believing their beings more altruistic when nothing can be further from the truth. Further still everything comes with price.. I'd hate to pay the ultimate price, but let's get back to the doctor analogy not working for a good degree whatever it maybe renders one a bum, and many repercussions come from being a bum. There was a recent study meant to see how many prisons should be built by 2025 and they assessed that risk of criminality by the drop out rate from school.. so not getting an education is in fact proportional to punishment unless you consider prison an all expenses paid hiatus!

It makes perfect sense. If I conceived of, and more importantly, worshiped, obeyed and followed, a God who you knew didn't exist but who was blatantly immoral and tyranical, that would say a lot about me, my intentions, my values, etc. And then if I equated morality with obedience to this God and declared those who dislike or disbelieve in this God as Evil, that would also say something about my mindset.

This is alot of drivel.. I really can't make sense of it, perhaps you can articulate yourself better?

You do not have to believe in something to see it as a negative, or as a positive for that matter. I can agree with much of what certain prophets said and appreciate the effect people believing in them has on believers. I don't have to be a believer myself for that. I can read passages in the Quran, for example, and see how they will lead people to kindness and good behaviour and be thankful that it says that instead of something leading them to cruel and bad behaviour. I can appreciate and admire that Islam lacks the Christian concept of vicarious redemption for example.

Ok and can I say what a blessing it is to have your nod of approval!

Imagine how different world history may be had the Christian Bible (which was held as holy by those who conquered most of the planet) explicitly forbid slavery, instead of half-condoning it. Imagine also if the Ten Commandments started with a call to morality instead of the call to obedience ("I am the Lord thy God, thou shall have no Gods before me" being instead the golden rule or rules against rape and slavery etc)

How different would it be? I doubt any change would become of it-- we've certainly seen people's behavior sans religion and it wasn't far better, in fact nothing at all was holding them back!

all the best

 

[Zafran]

Yes motives are key. If somebody's conception of "good" is defined as "God's will" and they do good only to please God and not for its own sake, they they are being obedient, not moral. Obedience is not morality, and the two can conflict. Abraham ready to murder his son for God is a good example. Other, non-religious, examples can be found repeatedly throughout human history.

who defines morality here? - you even have to call to authority to make an act moral like your emotions which your using now - we've had this discussion before authority is needed to form any morality or moral system. - No authority No morality.

You keep repeating yourself - why are you here?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Nazi soldiers were obedient. They were not moral. The two are not the same.
Abraham ready to kill Isaac was obedient. It was not moral. To label empathy or mutual benefit as "authoirty" is to miss the point. Both are not perfect but both require some actual moral thought. "Might Makes Right" or "Obey your maker" does not.

This is not aimed at anyone in particular in this forum, but it always amazes me on other forums or in person when some religious people make the claim that atheists can't have morals, becuase morality needs a "law giver". It makes me wonder if these people would be raping and murdering if they lost their faith. I do not think they would be. I think they have just burried their own internal moral compass so far beneath their religious dogma that they no longer realize it is there.

 

[جوري]

Nazi soldiers were obedient. They were not moral. The two are not the same.

So religion equals Nazism? I always love your quest to be even more venomous!

Abraham ready to kill Isaac was obedient. It was not moral. To label empathy or mutual benefit as "authoirty" is to miss the point. Both are not perfect but both require some actual moral thought. "Might Makes Right" or "Obey your maker" does not.

Abraham wasn't to kill Issac it was Ishmael.. be that as it may..
Abraham Also had this:


وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّ أَرِنِي كَيْفَ تُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ ۖ قَالَ أَوَلَمْ تُؤْمِنْ ۖ قَالَ بَلَىٰ وَلَٰكِنْ لِيَطْمَئِنَّ قَلْبِي ۖ قَالَ فَخُذْ أَرْبَعَةً مِنَ الطَّيْرِ فَصُرْهُنَّ إِلَيْكَ ثُمَّ اجْعَلْ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ جَبَلٍ مِنْهُنَّ جُزْءًا ثُمَّ ادْعُهُنَّ يَأْتِينَكَ سَعْيًا ۚ وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{260}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 2:260] And when Abraham said (unto his Lord): My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said: Dost thou not believe? Abraham said: Yea, but (I ask) in order that my heart may be at ease. (His Lord) said: Take four of the birds and cause them to incline unto thee, then place a part of them on each hill, then call them, they will come to thee in haste, and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.

He had a first hand account of truth than the rest of the lay people.. and you know what.. he didn't sacrifice, it was a test of his faith and love of God, who giveth and who taketh away.. Everything in life is temporal. Those who are given the message are meant for it. They're meant to be fickle atheists with no faith!

[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]This is not aimed at anyone in particular in this forum, but it always amazes me on other forums or in person when some religious people make the claim that atheists can't have morals, becuase morality needs a "law giver". It makes me wonder if these people would be raping and murdering if they lost their faith. I do not think they would be. I think they have just burried their own internal moral compass so far beneath their religious dogma that they no longer realize it is there.

It is because your baseline for morals is the stuff of satanists. It only has to do with Hedonism and what feels right.. not because there is anything good or decent about it. Believe me you couldn't offend even if you tried.

وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ لَوْلَا يُكَلِّمُنَا اللَّهُ أَوْ تَأْتِينَا آيَةٌ ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ قَالَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ مِثْلَ قَوْلِهِمْ ۘ تَشَابَهَتْ قُلُوبُهُمْ ۗ قَدْ بَيَّنَّا الْآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]{118}[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 2:118] And those who have no knowledge say: Why doth not Allah speak unto us, or some sign come unto us? Even thus, as they now speak, spake those (who were) before them. Their hearts are all alike. We have made clear the revelations for people who are sure.[/SIZE]


you're not that much different than those who preceded you -- we're all very familiar with your psychology!

all the best[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[IAmZamzam]

Nazi soldiers were obedient. They were not moral. The two are not the same.
Abraham ready to kill Isaac was obedient. It was not moral. To label empathy or mutual benefit as "authoirty" is to miss the point. Both are not perfect but both require some actual moral thought. "Might Makes Right" or "Obey your maker" does not.

This is not aimed at anyone in particular in this forum, but it always amazes me on other forums or in person when some religious people make the claim that atheists can't have morals, becuase morality needs a "law giver". It makes me wonder if these people would be raping and murdering if they lost their faith. I do not think they would be. I think they have just burried their own internal moral compass so far beneath their religious dogma that they no longer realize it is there.

And how did that compass get there? From your parents? From society? We're being obedient to someone one way or another.

 

[Lynx]

I dont know how many times we have to explain the same thing to you (atheists, agnostics), but it has been repeatedly written in this thread alone, that both intentions and actions are important, as Allah SWT repeatedly say in the qur'an about those who will be the winners in the life after this world: "for those who believe and do good deeds"

Is that really difficult to understand, lynx?
Is that why you remain a non-muslim?

The only way your post is even relevant is if you're saying someone with the intention of finding the 'truth' but failed to see Islam as that truth has the same chance of entering heaven that a Muslim does. If you are not saying that then go back and re-read my posts.

On the day of judgement, God is not going to say "well lynx, you were a pretty good lad for 90% of your life, but for the mere fact of not believing I existed in the remaining 10%, you can go to hell". It's not a case of thought-crime, so that rules out punishment for non-belief. It is however a case of what actions you did in relation to those thoughts.

So you think a morally upright atheist can go to heaven, right? That's what I am getting from your response so please correct me if I am wrong; you seem to say there is no such thing as a 'thought-crime' so no atheist is guilty for anything pertaining to his/her beliefs.

what does your first point actually mean - its dead straight forward - You believe in God and hold his principles by acting upon your belief in God - why are you making a distincton between God's principles and In God's name is beyond me as its the same thing. To even to uphold God's principles you have to do the first step actually believe in God.

Well by principles of God I mean the general moral character God prescribes in the scriptures. Someone can follow those guidelines without actually believing in God; it's not impossible for someone to have an internal moral compass pointing them towards the same sort of behavior that Islam prescribes for its followers.

If you dont believe in God your doing your actions for a different reason all togather its not for God. Its simple as that.

People who do not worship God will worship something else from desires to idols - they will do there actions other then in the name of God - they are ultimatly living there lifes for a totally different reason - opening up the door that God has already warned us about.

You're equivocating on the word 'worship' but besides that you haven't answered my question; why does doing things for something other than God (for moral reasons, selfish reasons, etc) make one worthy of Hell? The logical conclusion of your stance is that non-Muslims (or non-theists if we are speaking generally) are not deserving any reward and not deserving any punishment.


@Lily

You can't get a job as a doctor outside of academia and you can't get into the eternal house without religion. As for what makes ones beliefs morally good, well it depends on the outcome and ultimately those are judged by the creator.

You're confusing beliefs with actions. Picking up a water bottle is an action; studying hard for my exam is an action; believing 1+1=2 or Islam is true is NOT an action so your analogy is inaccurate.

 

[جوري]

You're confusing beliefs with actions. Picking up a water bottle is an action; studying hard for my exam is an action; believing 1+1=2 or Islam is true is NOT an action so your analogy is inaccurate.

Actively choosing and seeking God's mercy and the life of the righteous takes action when we pray, fast, make pilgrimage, give charity what do you call that? It is very much an action, faith is built on study no different than any other.. Thus it is your line of thinking that is faulty and to be honest I really don't give a da mn to have some calisthenics with words with you or any other non-believer.. As stated you're happy in your state of atheism, don't concern yourself so much with theism, and if you should find yourself of the poor on the day of recompense then state your grievances then...

with this post I am done and with the forum as well!

all the best

 

[aamirsaab]

...So you think a morally upright atheist can go to heaven, right? That's what I am getting from your response so please correct me if I am wrong; you seem to say there is no such thing as a 'thought-crime' so no atheist is guilty for anything pertaining to his/her beliefs.

A morally upright athiest would not go to heaven because he doesn't believe in God. And I would not be able to understand how such a combination is possible: if you were to live according to all the islamic principles; follow the Qur'an; be the ideal muslim yet at the exact same time not believe in Allah, then that would be an act of hypocricy - that explains the punishment of hellfire.

Like I said in previous post, the belief in Allah is central to Islam. Without having that fundemental, how can you even hope to enter His paradise? But there is a difference between doubt and disbelief - that's what I was trying to get at before.

 

[highway4]

Assalamu Alaikum,
Regardless which way you put it, Athesim is a belief itself.. the question would be to why is it natural for a human to need belief? Why does every human been question themselves naturally to what is the reason for his existing in the first place? must be a reasonable question...we could of simply walk on this earth on the first place without a thought to ask that question but we did Why?... You wouldn't be on this forum in the first place if any of these thoughts never occured to you? You wouldnt be trying to justify your belief?
Everything on this Earth has a purpose...A tree has a purpose...a key has a purpose, a roof has a purpose but a human being as a whole doesn't??
If you believe in no existance of God then you dont believe in the prophets or the divine revelations...whats there to guide you or your children from right and wrong? to have morals or even have fear in been punished for wrongdoing? Through books of revelation and prophets from God he has given us a guide for us all to lead an acceptable, justified and moral way of life. Nothing can give you that here except through the knowledge that God has revealed...
If you were to steal...we know its a bad thing and that person needs to be punished right?
how would you prove that its wrong?
If this person is an atheist...
I dont see the benefits in been an atheist at all...Its like life is but a waste...
I dont see no benefits to ones character...
EVERYTHING that you have done in this life will be forgotten...even if your children were to remember some of your memories and achievements, they too will forget you and so on so forth...Then you will be forgotten as if you didnt exist... If your mother or father or even your child were dieing is that it...theres no hope...nothing?? i find that in itself unjustified!
Thankyou for your time

 

[Zafran]

Well by principles of God I mean the general moral character God prescribes in the scriptures. Someone can follow those guidelines without actually believing in God; it's not impossible for someone to have an internal moral compass pointing them towards the same sort of behavior that Islam prescribes for its followers.

Then you would be a muslim.

You're equivocating on the word 'worship' but besides that you haven't answered my question; why does doing things for something other than God (for moral reasons, selfish reasons, etc) make one worthy of Hell? The logical conclusion of your stance is that non-Muslims (or non-theists if we are speaking generally) are not deserving any reward and not deserving any punishment.

If your acting upon selfish reasons your worshipping your nafs - If your acting upon "Moral reasons" - here you'll have to define these moral reasons - you are worshipping those moral reasons. Those reasons are more important then God?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Everything on this Earth has a purpose...A tree has a purpose

And that purpose is entirely subjective. The purpose of the tree to you may be firewood or it may be aesthetic. The purpose of the tree to a beaver is something to build a house with. The purpose of the tree to a bird is something to live on, to a squirrel it is something to live in. The purpose of the tree to the tree itself is different yet again. Purpose is not an objective fact about something, it is a subjective call, and without the speaker having use for the purpose there is no purpose... to anything.

The same works with people. Your purpose is whatever you decide it is. Atheists do not live without purpose. Like everybody else, we create purpose in our lives. My purpose is to provide for my family, and to do good for my neighbours and community at large. That purpose does not exist without me making that my purpose, but that doesn't make it (or me) any less valuable.

If you believe in no existance of God then you dont believe in the prophets or the divine revelations...whats there to guide you or your children from right and wrong?

This kind of question is exactly what I addressed a few posts up. If you did not have your belief in Allah, would you be out killing, stealing, or raping? No? Well me neither. You don't need God belief to have a moral sense of right and wrong. Empathy and social contract will do just fine. In fact introducing God and his commands just confounds obedience with morality. If God told you to kill somebody or steal or rape, would you do it? I hope not, because you recognize that obedience is not morality.

how would you prove that its wrong?
If this person is an atheist...

Unless they are a sociopath, they know it is wrong, but did it anyway. Religious people also do that, knowing things are wrong, but doing them anyway.

I dont see the benefits in been an atheist at all...Its like life is but a waste...

Only it isn't. True, atheism in itself does not have any benefits. It is nothing more than not believing in Gods. But being an atheist doesn't mean you don't have a worldview, such as humanism (which is quite common amongst atheists), which does provide such benefits - very similar ones to your religion.

EVERYTHING that you have done in this life will be forgotten

Sure. You too (though you believe otherwise). Does that make life not worth living? And does wanting to be remembered forever (which seems pretty selfish to me) really form any basis for believing it will be so?

theres no hope...nothing??

No hope for what exactly? What should I be hoping for? I don't have a sad, empty or purposeless life with no hope, and I am an atheist. My life is full of happiness, love, and meaning. Moreso than when I was religious. Does that surprise you?

 

[M.I.A.]

there is a lot of posting about intentions and moral actions,

the way i see it is kinda like this,
i remember when 50cent made his film "get rich or die trying" for a time after that a lot of people started walking around with there hand in there coat/hoody pocket pretending they were "packing"

this is the kind of thing that imposes fear upon people and worse still can lead to all sorts of mishaps..

the benefit of following the quran is that the rules imposed upon you are the most just for you and the people around you.. imitation of any other way is not beneficial or even harmful.

athiests should understand that common sense will only get them so far, although it is becoming less common lol
i think the test for athiests is the belief in the unseen, understanding that the way things work is almost as set as gravity..when they look for this proof rationally it is there.
the standard operating procedure that will help find the proof is the quran.

 

[BoredAgnostic]

Do you ever worry that when you die you'll figure out that some religion is true, and that you needed to have believed in it to go to heaven? Whether it's christianity, islam, or any other religion that requires acceptance before death to go to heaven (like not an "everyone goes to heaven" type of religion).

Do you ever wonder about this or worry about it?

Sure, all the time. I also worry about ceasing to exist forever. But the act of worrying doesn't get you anywhere. I'll see soon enough what happens.

 

[Perseveranze]

Only it isn't. True, atheism in itself does not have any benefits. It is nothing more than not believing in Gods. But being an atheist doesn't mean you don't have a worldview, such as humanism (which is quite common amongst atheists), which does provide such benefits - very similar ones to your religion.

Peace,

Not sure about the Humanism part, last time I checked I didn't find any Athiest charities.

'The typical no-faith American donated just $200 in 2006, which is more than seven times less than the amount contributed by the prototypical active-faith adult ($1500). Even when church-based giving is subtracted from the equation, active-faith adults donated twice as many dollars last year as did atheists and agnostics. In fact, while just 7% of active-faith adults failed to contribute any personal funds in 2006, that compares with 22% among the no-faith adults.'

http://www.barna.org/barna-update/a...atheists-and-agnostics-take-aim-at-christians

...the single biggest predictor of whether someone will be charitable is their religious participation.

Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money: four times as much. And Arthur Brooks told me that giving goes beyond their own religious organization:

"Actually, the truth is that they're giving to more than their churches," he says. "The religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly non-religious charities."

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=2682730&page=2

and

People who go to church are generally more involved in their community. They are also encouraged by their church to give to charity.

They are sure of their values, so have no hesitation in giving money to a cause they believe in.

Atheists and agnostics are often less confident of their values, or are more hesitant to give their money to a cause if they are not certain it will benefit the world. Just as they do not have faith without evidence there is anything to have faith in, they do not give to a charity without evidence it is a worthy cause. Not all charities are necessarily worthwhile.

Also they do not believe that donating to charity might mean they are more likely to get into heaven, because they do not believe in heaven.

It does not mean that atheists don't have morals. That's a bit of a presumption. Maybe they put their family and friends first. And an average donation of $200 is quite a bit anyway. Maybe they are just practical. The average atheist knows they cannot single-handedly save the world by donating thousands to charity.

That's my theory anyway.

Not saying Athiests don't care, just they don't feel obliged to help something if it doesn't concern them. Which isn't exactly the most favourable thing for Mankind.

 

[BoredAgnostic]

Peace,

Not sure about the Humanism part, last time I checked I didn't find any Athiest charities.

and



Not saying Athiests don't care, just they don't feel obliged to help something if it doesn't concern them. Which isn't exactly the most favourable thing for Mankind.

Nice blanket statement to make.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Not much good or bad is done in the name of atheism because atheism is not a world view. Atheists take their worldviews from somewhere other than atheism itself. And there are plenty of secular charities, such as medcins sans frontiers (doctors without borders), doing charity for the sake of charity.

But here is an example of an instance in which people actually are doing charity in the name of atheism: go to kiva.org and look at the group listings. The atheist group has given by far the most (with the Christian group coming a distant second).

I wonder if the part quoted and bolded above is just rhetoric or actually believed by the writer. It doesn't take much to disprove it, and the examples above should suffice.

The real question here is whether "religious charity" is charity at all. Giving of yourself because an authority demands you do so (be that "religious charity" or paying your taxes) is not the same as giving of yourself for its own sake. Giving of yourself to gain a reward (heaven) or avoid a threat (hell) is also not on par. And I have always found it offensive when some "religious charities" seem to care more about converting people to their religion than actually helping people.

 

[M.I.A.]

Not much good or bad is done in the name of atheism because atheism is not a world view. Atheists take their worldviews from somewhere other than atheism itself. And there are plenty of secular charities, such as medcins sans frontiers (doctors without borders), doing charity for the sake of charity.

But here is an example of an instance in which people actually are doing charity in the name of atheism: go to kiva.org and look at the group listings. The atheist group has given by far the most (with the Christian group coming a distant second).

I wonder if the part quoted and bolded above is just rhetoric or actually believed by the writer. It doesn't take much to disprove it, and the examples above should suffice.

The real question here is whether "religious charity" is charity at all. Giving of yourself because an authority demands you do so (be that "religious charity" or paying your taxes) is not the same as giving of yourself for its own sake. Giving of yourself to gain a reward (heaven) or avoid a threat (hell) is also not on par. And I have always found it offensive when some "religious charities" seem to care more about converting people to their religion than actually helping people.

i can understand your concept of heaven and hell, that is a worldly concept. living in peace and imposing peace upon others. but if you live your life in that way then sooner or later your worldly concept of heaven and hell will change.. that is the proving of the existance of god to ones self(and all the things that come along with it)

 

[aamirsaab]

...
The real question here is whether "religious charity" is charity at all. Giving of yourself because an authority demands you do so (be that "religious charity" or paying your taxes) is not the same as giving of yourself for its own sake. Giving of yourself to gain a reward (heaven) or avoid a threat (hell) is also not on par. And I have always found it offensive when some "religious charities" seem to care more about converting people to their religion than actually helping people.

1) It really doesn't matter why someone gives to charity. If a doctor saves someone's life, are you going to say he only did it because he's getting paid? If that is your line of reasoning, then quite frankly you need to do some pondering on life before you make such statements.

2) It really dones't matter which charity you donate money to. You are getting hung up on specifics, but completely forget the bigger picture. The whole point of charity being a commandment is so that people give and help those in need instead of acting miserly. Example: If my neighbour is starving to death, it is obligatory for me to feed him, regardless of his religion (polythiest, athiest, whatever)

God wants us to be good, righteous human beings. Not douchebags or trolls and certainly not help my kind and only my kind.

 

[Perseveranze]

Nice blanket statement to make.

Peace,

You misunderstood. I never said Athiests don't care, I am sure they do, especially if they see a sad oxfam advert. I am just saying, they won't feel forced or obliged to help them because in essense they have no real gain from it. The religious person atleast believe they have a gain, they believe God would be pleased with them so it's a great encouragement for them to keep on giving to Charity.

I am sure some people may disagree with this, but it's just a highlight of another great benefit Religion has on the world and mankind today.

 

[BoredAgnostic]

Peace,

You misunderstood. I never said Athiests don't care, I am sure they do, especially if they see a sad oxfam advert. I am just saying, they won't feel forced or obliged to help them because in essense they have no real gain from it. The religious person atleast believe they have a gain, they believe God would be pleased with them so it's a great encouragement for them to keep on giving to Charity.

I am sure some people may disagree with this, but it's just a highlight of another great benefit Religion has on the world and mankind today.

Personal happiness/fulfillment from the act of helping, and the happiness of those that you've helped is a major gain for a lot of people (whether religious or not), including myself. I don't need to feel 'forced' by a higher being to try to help people that are suffering.