Mathematical Miracles of the Qur'an

[Talha777]

The raticle says the word yawman was also countrd. What does it mean?

Yawman also means day, the "an" is basically a technical rule in Arabic grammar which means another word will proceed and the two words Yawm and the other word are connected. For example:

Then guard yourselves against a Day when one soul shall not avail another
(Al Baqarah 2:123)

The Arabic says yawman la which means "a day not", and it goes on to say it will be a day not that souls will avail eachother. But this is a technical thing, the important thing to remember is yawm means day, whether it appears as yawm or yawman. Similarly the word sirat means path in Arabic, and in the First Chapter of Holy Quran it appears as siratan, because it is connected with another word mustaqeem.

And anyway, it isn't moe logical. His day is still a single day. Arabic apparently doesn't have seperate words for possesive pronouns.

Thats exactly the point. The word yawmuhum is one word and it doesnt mean "day". In this research, only the word day was counted. Why can't you understand this single point. If yawmukum and yawmuhum were counted, people would raise an ever greater clamour and say this is dishonest because yawmukum doesnt mean day in the strict sense, etc.

I agree with Trumble. Such coincidences are bound to be found in lenghty books.

This is why I gave a personal challenge to Trumble, because he is an open buddhist, to show me such numerical miracles in his holy book (the tripitaka) as well. That is fair in my opinion.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Yawman also means day, the "an" is basically a technical rule in Arabic grammar which means another word will proceed and the two words Yawm and the other word are connected. For example:

Then guard yourselves against a Day when one soul shall not avail another
(Al Baqarah 2:123)

The Arabic says yawman la which means "a day not", and it goes on to say it will be a day not that souls will avail eachother. But this is a technical thing, the important thing to remember is yawm means day, whether it appears as yawm or yawman. Similarly the word sirat means path in Arabic, and in the First Chapter of Holy Quran it appears as siratan, because it is connected with another word mustaqeem.



Thats exactly the point. The word yawmuhum is one word and it doesnt mean "day". In this research, only the word day was counted. Why can't you understand this single point. If yawmukum and yawmuhum were counted, people would raise an ever greater clamour and say this is dishonest because yawmukum doesnt mean day in the strict sense, etc.



This is why I gave a personal challenge to Trumble, because he is an open buddhist, to show me such numerical miracles in his holy book (the tripitaka) as well. That is fair in my opinion.

But then again yawman doesn't mean yamn in a strict sense, beacuse it is connected with another word...possesive pronouns, articles etc are also conected with the word day. They just happen to be a part of one word.
That's my opinion about it.
And anyway, I don't know if I can trust any of so called miracles of the quran, since so many have been proven false and deceitful.
And you didn't answer my last question.

Here's an example from the Bible:

 

[Trumble]

Since you are a Buddhist and this is your contention, than I humbly ask you to provide me with some mathematic miracles from your Tripitaka. Unless you can do this, you should keep quiet otherwise you will be humiliated.

To my knowledge it doesn't contain any mathematical 'miracles' (real ones, that is), although I can't say I've ever felt the urge to look. Doing so would be pretty pointless as it wasn't even written down for several hundred years after it was first codified following the Buddha's death and Pali is not even the language the Buddha and his contemporary followers would have spoken although, like Sanskrit, it is very closely related. While much of the vocabulary of Pali and Sanskrit is common, not all of it is, and spellings differ; hence ditto presumably between Pali and the Prakrit dialect spoken by Gautama. Hence a word count would be futile, although it would produce the results I suggested in any of those languages (or English, or Chinese, or classical Tibetan come to that).

Why would there be 'miracles' (as opposed to coincidences of the sort I described) of any sort? It has no pretentions to divine authorship or inspiration. The Tipitaka is combination of rules for the monastic life, and the Buddha's teachings about suffering, how it is caused and how it can be ended. No silly party tricks are needed for people to take it seriously and, with the greatest respect, no silly party tricks are needed for people to take the Qur'an seriously either.

 

[snakelegs]

question for muslims:
you believe the qur'an is the word of god. isn't that sufficient? why do you need stuff like "mathematical miracles"??? do they make the book any more true?

 

[Talha777]

But then again yawman doesn't mean yamn in a strict sense, beacuse it is connected with another word...possesive pronouns, articles etc are also conected with the word day. They just happen to be a part of one word.

Perhaps I need to illustrate this point to you in a different way:

يَوْمِ

Yawmi, the "i" at the end of Yawm means another word will follow that is CONNECTED IN SUBJECT, not that they are one word. For example Yawmi addeen (Day of Judgment), these are two separate words, but because they are connected in subject, the meem in Yawm has a different grammatical point. But it is still strictly means DAY.

يَوْماً

This is Yawman, as you can see it has the exact same root letters YA - WAW - MEEM but the last letter meem has a different grammatical point. It still strictly means day, the meaning of the word is not altered in the least. The grammatical point on Meem changes to indicate the next word following in the sentence is connected by SUBJECT

So why is Yawmukum or Yawmuhum any different you ask?

يَوْمُكُمُ

As you can see, the word Yawmukum has extra letters (kaf and meem) added to it, it is ONE WORD. And as one word it has a meaning, and that meaning IS NOT DAY!!!! The meaning is YOUR DAY. Whereas Yawmi and Yawman both mean DAY and nothing but DAY!!!

Hope you understand now. Even a 4 year old child should understand this.

I reject this so called miracle for several reasons:

1) It is an English translation, not the original Bible text. English translations can vary in their particular word choice.

2) Why the letters are arranged in rows of 33?

3) It is nothing compared to the numerical miracles of the Holy Quran.

 

[Talha777]

Doing so would be pretty pointless as it wasn't even written down for several hundred years after it was first codified following the Buddha's death and Pali is not even the language the Buddha and his contemporary followers would have spoken although, like Sanskrit, it is very closely related. While much of the vocabulary of Pali and Sanskrit is common, not all of it is, and spellings differ; hence ditto presumably between Pali and the Prakrit dialect spoken by Gautama. Hence a word count would be futile, although it would produce the results I suggested in any of those languages (or English, or Chinese, or classical Tibetan come to that).

Why would there be 'miracles' (as opposed to coincidences of the sort I described) of any sort? It has no pretentions to divine authorship or inspiration. The Tipitaka is combination of rules for the monastic life, and the Buddha's teachings about suffering, how it is caused and how it can be ended. No silly party tricks are needed for people to take it seriously and, with the greatest respect, no silly party tricks are needed for people to take the Qur'an seriously either.

You see this is my point. We believe the Holy Quran has divine authorship, and we have presented multitude of miracles (not just numerical by all means) to prove it. Still you reject out of blind arrogance and pride. No religious scripture on the face of the earth, whether it is Bible, Vedas, Talmud, Book of Mormon, Tao Te Ching, Tripitaka, etc., can compare to the Holy Quran. The Holy Quran is superior to all these other scriptures in every meaningful regard. With regard to its teachings, its prophecies, its numerical miracles, its salient features. No other book on face of the Earth can compare.

The fact that Buddhists do not possess nor can prove Tripitaka represents accurately the teachings of Buddha and Christians similarly can never prove the New Testament represent the teachings of Jesus. Only we Muslims can say without a shadow of doubt the Holy Quran is the Word of Allah revealed to the Seal of Prophets Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him).

question for muslims:
you believe the qur'an is the word of god. isn't that sufficient? why do you need stuff like "mathematical miracles"??? do they make the book any more true?

I would say that even without any mathematic miracles, our belief in the divine authorship of Holy Quran is a firm and unbreakable. They are just "icing on the cake" in my opinion. But our belief in Islam and the Holy Quran is not a blind faith based on tradition or culture. Our belief in Holy Quran must be sincere and strong, so Allah has shown us many signs and miracles in His Word and we are compelled by reason to belief in its truthfulness.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I know what you're trying to say. I just disagreee with your reasoning and so do some muslims.
Not only "his day" or "by that day" were omitted. Conjugated ones, such as "of a day", were also omitted.
Most Bible codes are found in the Hebrew Bible. In this particular example the KJV was used. It has been translated almost 400 years ago so this "miracle" can't have been produced deliberately. Why the rows of 33? I don't know, perhaps for a similar reason muslims use for days...in order to get the right numbers.
What's so speacial about the numerical "miracles" of the Quran? A couple of word repetitions, most of which are deliberate.
The rest are just coincidental combinations in a lenghty book, which can apparently also be found in the bible.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

All religions have got means of justifying themselves. Some of them (including Islam) cheat from time to time. They provide false information, change their scriptures, make up scientists...
Most believers "know" their religion is the one and the only.

 

[Talha777]

The rest are just coincidental combinations in a lenghty book, which can apparently also be found in the bible.

So bring us one my friend. Dont bring me crossword puzzles either.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

So bring us one my friend. Dont bring me crossword puzzles either.

I think most Bible codes are crossword puzzles. If you don't like crosswords, that's your problem.:coolious:

Here's an interesting one:

SYDNEY, Australia (CNN) -- In a rare public exchange highlighting the delicacy of political diplomacy, President Bush told South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun a formal end to the Korean War begins when North Korea halts its secretive nuclear weapons program.

The Bush administration did contribute to an end of the north korean nuclear weapons program.

OMGffended:

 

[truemuslim]

So bring us one my friend. Dont bring me crossword puzzles either.

they dont got any... because the bible was written by a human,...:coolious:

 

[Whatsthepoint]

they dont got any... because the bible was written by a human,...:coolious:

IMHO so was the Quran. And the word repetitions were put in deliberately.

 

[truemuslim]

IMHO so was the Quran. And the word repetitions were put in deliberately.

and thats where ur wrong. the quraan was written by ALLAH...who is THE GOD... yep...and at least the quraan isnt a bunch of crossword puzzles that come in the newspaper. ffended:

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Truemuslim, do you believe that some parts of the bible (ie those in accordance to the Quran) are a revelation from God?

 

[truemuslim]

Truemuslim, do you believe that some parts of the bible (ie those in accordance to the Quran) are a revelation from God?

SOME parts in the Bible WERE real...but the rest...eh

 

[truemuslim]

Truemuslim, do you believe that some parts of the bible (ie those in accordance to the Quran) are a revelation from God?

And all of the quraan was real

 

[Talha777]

I want all Muslims to notice something what this person "Whatsthepoint" is saying:

IMHO so was the Quran. And the word repetitions were put in deliberately.

This guy is not dismissing the numerical miracles, he is only saying that it was all pre-planned when the Holy Quran was being written!!!

How absurd is that? Doesn't even know how the Holy Quran was revealed. Thinks the numerical miracles were pre-planned, and a conspiracy to make them public 1400 years later!

I think most Bible codes are crossword puzzles. If you don't like crosswords, that's your problem

No its your problem. Because what is the criteria for determining how many letters for each row? Please answer this question, and maybe I'll consider your so called "bible code".

 

[truemuslim]

I want all Muslims to notice something what this person "Whatsthepoint" is saying:



This guy is not dismissing the numerical miracles, he is only saying that it was all pre-planned when the Holy Quran was being written!!!

How absurd is that? Doesn't even know how the Holy Quran was revealed. Thinks the numerical miracles were pre-planned, and a conspiracy to make them public 1400 years later!



yes i noticed that.lol...



No its your problem. Because what is the criteria for determining how many letters for each row? Please answer this question, and maybe I'll consider your so called "bible code".

"bible code" is like one of those things that they have on websites, that its like a mystery game.lol

 

[Trumble]

You see this is my point. We believe the Holy Quran has divine authorship, and we have presented multitude of miracles (not just numerical by all means) to prove it. Still you reject out of blind arrogance and pride.

I know you believe that, you wouldn't be a muslim if you didn't. I, however, do not believe it. Not because of "blind arrogance and pride", but because I have seen nothing whatsoever that provides convincing evidence that the Qur'an is of anything other than human authorship. Of the evidence I have seen, I find the actual contents of the Qur'an (by which I mean what it actually says, not ludicrous attempts to re-interpret it as scientific or historical 'miracles') far more impressive than Yayha's nonsense. As I do Woodrow's comments about the actual style of the Arabic, incidently. But the idea that an omnipotent God, even if there was one, would play such silly word or mathematical games (why?!!) is not 'icing on the cake' for anything, it is utterly absurd. Word games are for bored commuters on trains, not God.

The Holy Quran is superior to all these other scriptures in every meaningful regard. With regard to its teachings, its prophecies, its numerical miracles, its salient features. No other book on face of the Earth can compare.

Again, what else would you think as a muslim?

The fact that Buddhists do not possess nor can prove Tripitaka represents accurately the teachings of Buddha

At the risk of straying off topic, Buddhists have had no need to 'prove' it, they experience it. From the time of the Buddha himself, those teachings have been a case of 'suck it and see'; if Buddhism makes to sense you then go with it and follow those teachings. If they don't make sense, then move on. Buddhism is a religion of self-effort and both the Buddha and those who followed him taught only those who wished to be taught. There is no obligation, no divine command.

Only we Muslims can say without a shadow of doubt the Holy Quran is the Word of Allah revealed to the Seal of Prophets Muhammad

Again, as a muslim, you believe that. In objective terms, though, it's nonsense.. of course there is 'doubt'. You cannot 'prove' that there even is a God let alone that he revealed anything to anybody. If there really were such proof, everyone on the planet would become a muslim, including me. But there isn't; you just see what you want to see. To those who believe already it convinces, to most of those who don't, it doesn't. And I wouldn't claim for a minute that Christians, Jews, or even Buddhists are any different.. but if we are all to get along it is at least important to be honest and recognise that fact. None of them reject Islam through 'arrogance and pride' any more than you reject Buddhism or Daoism through 'arrogance and pride'.

 

[Talha777]

I know you believe that, you wouldn't be a muslim if you didn't. I, however, do not believe it. Not because of "blind arrogance and pride", but because I have seen nothing whatsoever that provides convincing evidence that the Qur'an is of anything other than human authorship. Of the evidence I have seen, I find the actual contents of the Qur'an (by which I mean what it actually says, not ludicrous attempts to re-interpret it as scientific or historical 'miracles') far more impressive than Yayha's nonsense. As I do Woodrow's comments about the actual style of the Arabic, incidently. But the idea that an omnipotent God, even if there was one, would play such silly word or mathematical games (why?!!) is not 'icing on the cake' for anything, it is utterly absurd. Word games are for bored commuters on trains, not God.

My friend talk is cheap. Actually showing me how these numerical miracles are nonsense, that is time and effort better spent in my opinion. Instead of bringing crossword puzzles to try to prove that any book contains such numerical miracles, I invite you and anyone else to give me some satisfactory numerical miracles from any book asides from Holy Quran. Fact of the matter is you never will be able to, so don't even bother.

At the risk of straying off topic, Buddhists have had no need to 'prove' it, they experience it. From the time of the Buddha himself, those teachings have been a case of 'suck it and see'; if Buddhism makes to sense you then go with it and follow those teachings. If they don't make sense, then move on. Buddhism is a religion of self-effort and both the Buddha and those who followed him taught only those who wished to be taught. There is no obligation, no divine command.

Experience what exactly? Exercising is always good for the soul, it doesnt mean Buddhism is such an awesome religion and we should leave Islam to experience the pleasures of yoga. This is problem with you buddhists, you just give a religious coloring to school of yoga/meditation. It is not a real religion. Even a Muslim can stay true to his religion and practice meditation. But the teachings of your scripture, compare that with Islamic teachings of Holy Quran, there is no comparison im afraid.