Preservation of Qur'an

[Spiritlead]

Sure, the Torah revealed on Musa :as: was prefect and absolute but it was meant for only the children of Israel. Moreover, the original version is no long preserved. It was meant to be replaced by Quran and Judaism was meant to be replaced by Islam from the very beginning, as Islam and Quran are for the whole of humanity until the last day.

The original Quran has not been preserved. Uthman burnt all original copies. Muslims have no record exactly what the original Quran was.

 

[AabiruSabeel]

Re: Prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Bible

The original Quran has not been preserved. Uthman burnt all original copies. Muslims have no record exactly what the original Quran was.

Are you really that ignorant about Islam? Go and read the history again.

Quran is preserved by memorization in the hearts of millions of Muslims all over the world since the time of the Prophet :saws:. No amount of book burning can ever damage the Quran in any way. Huffaz among Muslims can once again write down the whole mus-haf and you won't find missing even a single letter.

Uthman :ra: burned only those written copies that were written in different dialects to avoid any confusion among new and non-Arab Muslims. He made serval copies of the original Quraishi dialect and distributed to all the provinces. The task was given to the same companions who had memorized and scribed the Quran during the lifetime of the Prophet :saws: to avoid any mistakes.

 

[keiv]

Re: Prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Bible

The original Quran has not been preserved. Uthman burnt all original copies. Muslims have no record exactly what the original Quran was.

From your understanding, why were they burnt?

 

[Ümit]

Re: Prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Bible

From your understanding, why were they burnt?

You shouldn't have asked that.

Oh boy, here we go again...

 

[Spiritlead]

Re: Prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Bible

Are you really that ignorant about Islam? Go and read the history again.

Quran is preserved by memorization in the hearts of millions of Muslims all over the world since the time of the Prophet :saws:. No amount of book burning can ever damage the Quran in any way. Huffaz among Muslims can once again write down the whole mus-haf and you won't find missing even a single letter.

Uthman :ra: burned only those written copies that were written in different dialects to avoid any confusion among new and non-Arab Muslims. He made serval copies of the original Quraishi dialect and distributed to all the provinces. The task was given to the same companions who had memorized and scribed the Quran during the lifetime of the Prophet :saws: to avoid any mistakes.

Hello Aabiru Sabeel. Thanks for your reply but in the future if you can please not be so rude in your tone. If you are wanting to discuss with non Muslims then you need to be more respectful.

Coming to the Quran, just what missing ‘version’ of the Quran do your Huffaz memorise?You will never know because you have no original copy.

If it was only about dialects then why destroy them ? What was Uthman afraid of ? If there had not been serious differences between them, why would he have had to destroy such cherished copies of what all Muslims believe to be the revealed Word of God? How can the Quran be the “miracle infallible word of God” if such action needed to be taken?
Also this decision wasn’t based on the wisdom of God but on one man’s choice.

Does not your Quran say of itself that "We will guard it (from corruption)." (Q15:9) but yet God could not keep it from corruption. But yet even in the earliest of times the Qur’an had not survived reliable and intact.
In fact the earliest Quran ever found (In Sanaa Yemen in the 1970s) is quite different from the Quran you have today. How do you explain that ?

You say “The task was given to the same companions who had memorized and scribed the Quran during the lifetime of the Prophet to avoid any mistakes.” But even Muhammad could not perfectly memorise the Qur’an? Your Sahih hadith is very clear about this. –
“Narrated Aisha: The Prophet heard a man reciting the Qur'an in the mosque and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such verses of such a Surah." (Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 6, bk. 61, no. 556; also Sahih Muslim: bk. 4, no. 1720).
If Mohmad could not even remember verses then what makes you think his companions could?

The Bible has never had a wholesale burning to standardize its text in the way that the Qur'an has.

 

[Murid]

Re: Prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Bible


:bism:
[MENTION=47432]Spiritlead[/MENTION]
There were hundrads or thousands of hafez in the time of Uthman.
In that time people memorised a lot faster and Quran is even easier to memorise.

I know that Quran is truth and unchanged. I will not explain how, but I will tell you that many other do know to, many other around the world, especially "spiritlead".
Sometime someone will not leave their former outward habits even if he/she knows the truth.

You have your beliefs, we ours.

If you believe in God (can not view your religion on this editor mode), ask Him alone to increase you in knowledge, understanding, have mercy on you and guide you. Please do ask so at least 10 minutes mornings and evenings.

 

[keiv]

Re: Prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Bible

You shouldn't have asked that.

Oh boy, here we go again...

Yea, I know. I was just trying to take a new approach and have him explain why he though the way he did rather than just countering his claim straight away.

**I just read his response. You were right.

 

[keiv]

Re: Prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Bible

Hello Aabiru Sabeel. Thanks for your reply but in the future if you can please not be so rude in your tone. If you are wanting to discuss with non Muslims then you need to be more respectful.

Coming to the Quran, just what missing ‘version’ of the Quran do your Huffaz memorise?You will never know because you have no original copy.

If it was only about dialects then why destroy them ? What was Uthman afraid of ? If there had not been serious differences between them, why would he have had to destroy such cherished copies of what all Muslims believe to be the revealed Word of God? How can the Quran be the “miracle infallible word of God” if such action needed to be taken?
Also this decision wasn’t based on the wisdom of God but on one man’s choice.

Does not your Quran say of itself that "We will guard it (from corruption)." (Q15:9) but yet God could not keep it from corruption. But yet even in the earliest of times the Qur’an had not survived reliable and intact.
In fact the earliest Quran ever found (In Sanaa Yemen in the 1970s) is quite different from the Quran you have today. How do you explain that ?

You say “The task was given to the same companions who had memorized and scribed the Quran during the lifetime of the Prophet to avoid any mistakes.” But even Muhammad could not perfectly memorise the Qur’an? Your Sahih hadith is very clear about this. –
“Narrated Aisha: The Prophet heard a man reciting the Qur'an in the mosque and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such verses of such a Surah." (Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 6, bk. 61, no. 556; also Sahih Muslim: bk. 4, no. 1720).
If Mohmad could not even remember verses then what makes you think his companions could?

The Bible has never had a wholesale burning to standardize its text in the way that the Qur'an has.

To be honest, after reading this, AabiruSabeel did you a favor by only calling you ignorant. This is beyond ignorance. Even after being replied to, you still repeat the same thing and then have the nerve to bring the bible into a subject about preservation. Wow..

 

[Spiritlead]

Re: Prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Bible

:bism:
@Spiritlead
There were hundrads or thousands of hafez in the time of Uthman.
In that time people memorised a lot faster and Quran is even easier to memorise.

I know that Quran is truth and unchanged. I will not explain how, but I will tell you that many other do know to, many other around the world, especially "spiritlead".
Sometime someone will not leave their former outward habits even if he/she knows the truth.

You have your beliefs, we ours.

If you believe in God (can not view your religion on this editor mode), ask Him alone to increase you in knowledge, understanding, have mercy on you and guide you. Please do ask so at least 10 minutes mornings and evenings.

As I said to Aabiru Sabeel. Uthman burnt all copies of the Quran that did not line up with what he believed and what you have today. Hafez during and after Uthman and Hafez today simply memorise “Uthmans Quran, not the other versions. You have no record of what the other versions said. Prove me wrong Murid.

And I agree. Sometimes someone will not leave their former outward habits even if he/she knows the truth. Murid. If you believe in God ask Him alone to increase you in knowledge, understanding, have mercy on you and guide you. Please do ask so at least 10 minutes mornings and evenings and then you may know the truth Murid. By the way I’m Christian.

 

[Spiritlead]

Re: Prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Bible

To be honest, after reading this, AabiruSabeel did you a favor by only calling you ignorant. This is beyond ignorance. Even after being replied to, you still repeat the same thing and then have the nerve to bring the bible into a subject about preservation. Wow..

You obviously have a closed mind. No point in replying to you in future.

 

[AabiruSabeel]

Re: Prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Bible

Hello Aabiru Sabeel. Thanks for your reply but in the future if you can please not be so rude in your tone. If you are wanting to discuss with non Muslims then you need to be more respectful.

Coming to the Quran, just what missing ‘version’ of the Quran do your Huffaz memorise?You will never know because you have no original copy.

If it was only about dialects then why destroy them ? What was Uthman afraid of ? If there had not been serious differences between them, why would he have had to destroy such cherished copies of what all Muslims believe to be the revealed Word of God? How can the Quran be the “miracle infallible word of God” if such action needed to be taken?
Also this decision wasn’t based on the wisdom of God but on one man’s choice.

Does not your Quran say of itself that "We will guard it (from corruption)." (Q15:9) but yet God could not keep it from corruption. But yet even in the earliest of times the Qur’an had not survived reliable and intact.
In fact the earliest Quran ever found (In Sanaa Yemen in the 1970s) is quite different from the Quran you have today. How do you explain that ?

You say “The task was given to the same companions who had memorized and scribed the Quran during the lifetime of the Prophet to avoid any mistakes.” But even Muhammad could not perfectly memorise the Qur’an? Your Sahih hadith is very clear about this. –
“Narrated Aisha: The Prophet heard a man reciting the Qur'an in the mosque and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such verses of such a Surah." (Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 6, bk. 61, no. 556; also Sahih Muslim: bk. 4, no. 1720).
If Mohmad could not even remember verses then what makes you think his companions could?

The Bible has never had a wholesale burning to standardize its text in the way that the Qur'an has.

The Qur'an is a unique book. It is the words of Allah :swt: Himself. It was revealed on the heart of the Prophet :saws:.

It is one of the miracles of the Qur'an that it wasn't sent down as written book. Written scriptures can be tampered with, as have happened with all previous scriptures. But Allah :swt: preserved the Qur'an by a unique method, memorization and oral recitation.

Allah SubHanahu wa Ta'ala says:

وَإِنَّهُ لَتَنزِيلُ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ ﴿١٩٢﴾ نَزَلَ بِهِ الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ ﴿١٩٣﴾ عَلَىٰ قَلْبِكَ لِتَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُنذِرِينَ ﴿١٩٤﴾ بِلِسَانٍ عَرَبِيٍّ مُّبِينٍ ﴿١٩٥﴾ـ
​

And indeed, the Qur'an is the revelation of the Lord of the worlds.
The Trustworthy Spirit has brought it down
Upon your heart, [O Muhammad] - that you may be of the warners -
In a clear Arabic language. [26:192-195]

Previous scriptures were in written from yet they were corrupted. The miracle of the Qur'an is that it is revealed on the heart of our Prophet :saws1: and it passes on from a heart to millions of hearts until Allah wills for it to be lifted near the last Day.

To preserve the complete Qur'an, Jibra'eel :as: used to recite the Qur'an to the Prophet :saws: every year during Ramadhan.

Narrated Abu-Huraira :ra:

Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet :saws: once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he died. The Prophet :saws: used to stay in I'tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of Ramadan), but in the year of his death, he stayed in I'tikaf for twenty days. [Bukhari]

As we can see from the above Hadith, the Qur'an was completely finalized as we have it now during the last year of the Prophet :saws:. Since then, there has been no additions or subtractions.


The Qur'an was completely memorized by heart by several companions of the Prophet :saws: during his lifetime. It was also written down completely during his lifetime itself but the written parchments were scattered among the companions.

During the time of first Khalifah, Abu Bakr As-Siddeeq :ra:, the written parchments were compiled together in a book form, commonly known as مصحف MusHaf. During the compilation, each written verse was confirmed by at least two companions who had it memorized and written during the Prophet's :saws: lifetime.

Then again, during the time of the third Khalifah, 'Uthman ibn 'Affan :ra:, Islam became widespread and people began reciting the Qur'an with a slight tint of their own dialects. In order to preserve the original dialect in which Qur'an was revealed, he :ra: ordered copies of the Qur'an in the original Quraish dialect to be made and distributed to all provinces, and asked other various dialects to be discarded.

It is important to note that we have several un-broken mutawatir chains of narration of the Qur'an present even until now. Have a look at this post: https://www.islamicboard.com/seekin...system-unbroken-link-prophet-post2978089.html

 

[Murid]

[MENTION=47432]Spiritlead[/MENTION]

There is nothing to be proved. It is already "scientifically" proved long time ago by many, more serious and educated in islamic studies and comperative religion.

There were hundrads and thousands of hafez in the time of Uthman who knew Quran from cover to cover by heart.
There were jews and christians and other religions.
There is no way Uthman could or would change something.
You do not have slightest perspective about that time span, numbers and abilities to memorise.

 

[Murid]

PS
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yamama

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR][TD]Battle of Yamama - Wikipedia
...[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

 

[AabiruSabeel]

For further clarification, go through these threads:

Was Quran changed by Usman (r.a)?

The Prophet had once forgotten a Verse ?

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR][TD] Was Quran changed by Usman (r.a)?
One of the most common myths about the Qur’an, is that Usman (r.a.), the third Caliph of Islam authenticated and compiled one Qur’an, from a large set...[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

 

[Spiritlead]

Re: Prophecy of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in Bible

The Qur'an is a unique book. It is the words of Allah :swt: Himself. It was revealed on the heart of the Prophet :saws:.

It is one of the miracles of the Qur'an that it wasn't sent down as written book. Written scriptures can be tampered with, as have happened with all previous scriptures. But Allah :swt: preserved the Qur'an by a unique method, memorization and oral recitation.

Allah SubHanahu wa Ta'ala says:

وَإِنَّهُ لَتَنزِيلُ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ ﴿١٩٢﴾ نَزَلَ بِهِ الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ ﴿١٩٣﴾ عَلَىٰ قَلْبِكَ لِتَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُنذِرِينَ ﴿١٩٤﴾ بِلِسَانٍ عَرَبِيٍّ مُّبِينٍ ﴿١٩٥﴾ـ
​

And indeed, the Qur'an is the revelation of the Lord of the worlds.
The Trustworthy Spirit has brought it down
Upon your heart, [O Muhammad] - that you may be of the warners -
In a clear Arabic language. [26:192-195]

Previous scriptures were in written from yet they were corrupted. The miracle of the Qur'an is that it is revealed on the heart of our Prophet :saws1: and it passes on from a heart to millions of hearts until Allah wills for it to be lifted near the last Day.

To preserve the complete Qur'an, Jibra'eel :as: used to recite the Qur'an to the Prophet :saws: every year during Ramadhan.

Narrated Abu-Huraira :ra:

Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet :saws: once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he died. The Prophet :saws: used to stay in I'tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of Ramadan), but in the year of his death, he stayed in I'tikaf for twenty days. [Bukhari]

As we can see from the above Hadith, the Qur'an was completely finalized as we have it now during the last year of the Prophet :saws:. Since then, there has been no additions or subtractions.


The Qur'an was completely memorized by heart by several companions of the Prophet :saws: during his lifetime. It was also written down completely during his lifetime itself but the written parchments were scattered among the companions.

During the time of first Khalifah, Abu Bakr As-Siddeeq :ra:, the written parchments were compiled together in a book form, commonly known as مصحف MusHaf. During the compilation, each written verse was confirmed by at least two companions who had it memorized and written during the Prophet's :saws: lifetime.

Then again, during the time of the third Khalifah, 'Uthman ibn 'Affan :ra:, Islam became widespread and people began reciting the Qur'an with a slight tint of their own dialects. In order to preserve the original dialect in which Qur'an was revealed, he :ra: ordered copies of the Qur'an in the original Quraish dialect to be made and distributed to all provinces, and asked other various dialects to be discarded.

It is important to note that we have several un-broken mutawatir chains of narration of the Qur'an present even until now. Have a look at this post: The Isnād System: An Unbroken Link to The Prophet

If the Quran is such a “unique miracle” then why did Uthman have to intervene ? it wasn’t God that did this. It was a man !
Consider Muhammad himself had forgotten portions of the Qur'and Muhammad himself had forgotten portions of the Qur'an and needed his followers to remind him. Doesn’t sound very reliable to me for a “miracle revelation”!

Please prove to me how the “previous scriptures were corrupted” You will not be able to. The Bible is highly reliable.

It makes no sense to argue the Qur'an was completely finalized as we have it now during the last year of the Prophet . Abu Baky compiled it and rejected other versions. Uthman then came after Mohamad and it was changed then. You cannot prove there has been no additions or subtractions because you do not have the original copies. They were burnt! I however can prove to you there were additions and subtractions – just check the Sanaa Quran which is the oldest Quarn and different from the one you have today.

Your mention of the Mus Haf of Abu Bakr is irrelevant. This was before Uthman.

Also consider these original copies of the Quran occurred at a time of civil war amongst Muslims. Disputes and conflicting readings were occurring amongst the soldiers leading contributing to the political unrest. and three out of four of the early caliphs were murdered and eventually the Sunni Shia split occurred. When you put all of this together you have an volatile political and religious environment that would have politicized and corrupted the Quaran and hadith.

Also how do you explain the differences of Quaran versions amongst Muslims at the time from the following hadith -?? Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 6, bk. 60, no. 468. Sahih Muslim: bk. 4.
no,Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 041, Number 601. Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1787.


There must have been so many versions at the time Uthman saw only one solution - the establishment of one of these as the official text and the burning of the others.

It’s a fact of history that the copies on bones, wood etc at the time of Abu Bakr were not consistent. That’s why Abu Bakr had to compile your Mus Haf and reject verses that did not fit. As a result its obvious there is no such thing as an un-broken mutawatir chain of narration going back to Mohamad, especially considering Uthman also later burnt versions that he did not agree with.

 

[Spiritlead]

@Spiritlead

There is nothing to be proved. It is already "scientifically" proved long time ago by many, more serious and educated in islamic studies and comperative religion.

There were hundrads and thousands of hafez in the time of Uthman who knew Quran from cover to cover by heart.
There were jews and christians and other religions.
There is no way Uthman could or would change something.
You do not have slightest perspective about that time span, numbers and abilities to memorise.

The oldest version of the Quran is the one found in Sanaa Yeman in the 1970s. it has been scientifically proven that is is different from the Quran Muslims have today.

As I said. Uthman burnt all copies of the Quran that did not line up with what he believed and what you have today. That is a historical fact !
Hafez during and after Uthman and Hafez today simply memorise “Uthmans Quran, not the other versions. You have no record of what the other versions said.

 

[Spiritlead]

For further clarification, go through these threads:

Was Quran changed by Usman (r.a)?

The Prophet had once forgotten a Verse ?

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD] Was Quran changed by Usman (r.a)?
One of the most common myths about the Qur’an, is that Usman (r.a.), the third Caliph of Islam authenticated and compiled one Qur’an, from a large set...[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I read the links. There is nothing here that challenges my position. Of interest one of the links writes ….
… The complete Qur’an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur’an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets…
This demonstrates Mohmad did not have a complete written record at his time. Only random stuff written on leaves, wood, bones and stones. It was mainly oral. And even he / Mohamad forgot a verse !

Yes Abu Bakr compiled the Mus Haf. But this was not unanimously reliable as the thread goes on to state -
… Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own …. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes…
…. were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur’an being missed by different Companions. This gave rise to disputes among Muslims regarding the different contents of the Qur’an during the period of the third Caliph Usman (r.a.)…
…There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes…
All this thread is reinforce that The Q was highly unreliable during the time of Mohamad, Abu Bakr and Uthman.
Muslims have no proof Abu Bakrs official version was the most correct all of the other versions at the time. And it cannot be proven that it was because all copies that did not agree with Uthmans version were burnt.

Interesting that the writer of the thread uses the Qurans at the museum in Tashkent andat the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul but conveniently ignores the older and more complete Sanaa Quaran which differs significantly from the Quran Muslims have today !

 

[AabiruSabeel]

You are regurgitating the same allegations that have already been clarified here over the past 16 years. See the thread links given here for each of your false allegation: Index of useful threads - Page 2 (islamicboard.com)

Read this article as well: Rebuttal to Samuel Green's Article "MUHAMMAD'S PERFECT MEMORY?" (call-to-monotheism.com)


As for the validation of memorized Qur'an by the Prophet :saws:, the hadith says:

Narrated Masriq:

`Abdullah bin `Amr mentioned `Abdullah bin Masud and said, "I shall ever love that man, for I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, 'Take (learn) the Qur'an from four: `Abdullah bin Masud, Salim, Mu`adh and Ubai bin Ka`b.' " [Bukhari]

And we have mutawatir unbroken chains of recitation through one of these companions to the Prophet :saws:.


Not all Sahabah were always present with the Prophet at all times. So it is possible that some of them might have recorded a verse that was later abrogated. This led to the differences between them, along with the different dialects that were used at that time. Uthman :ra: made copies of the original copy kept with Hafsah :raha:. He didn't simply choose one over the other. If he had done anything out of his own accord, the companions present during his time would have certainly revolted against him.


Zaid is reported to have said, "I saw the companions of Muhammad (going about) saying, "By Allah, Uthman has done well! By Allah, Uthman has done well!" [Nisaburi]

Ibn Abi Dawud records Musab ibn Sad ibn Abi Waqqas to have testified: "I saw the people assemble in large number at Uthman's burning of the proscribed copies; not a one spoke out against him." Ali commented, "If I were in command in place of Uthman, I would have done the same." [Zarkashi]


Narrated Anas bin Malik :ra: :

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman :ra: came to `Uthman :ra: at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa :ra: was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to `Uthman :ra:, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Qur'an) as Jews and the Christians did before." So `Uthman :ra: sent a message to Hafsa :raha: saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa :raha: sent it to `Uthman :ra:. `Uthman :ra: then ordered Zaid bin Thabit :ra:, `Abdullah bin AzZubair :ra:, Sa`id bin Al-As :ra: and `AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham :ra: to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. `Uthman :ra: said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, `Uthman :ra: returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa :raha:. `Uthman :ra: sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. [Bukhari]



It is a lie that the Qur'an parchments found in San'a are different from the actual Qur'an. Read this post here for clarification: Opinion of Yemeni Fragments??

 

[Muhammad]

Hello Spiritlead,

Brother AabiruSabeel has already covered the main points, but I thought I'd throw in a post as well for good measure.

In your posts I see you've been basing your points on speculation rather than factual information, which is quite disappointing and suggests you're not really interested in an honest discussion. If that's the case then I doubt any of us will waste time in providing further responses.

Hafez during and after Uthman and Hafez today simply memorise “Uthmans Quran, not the other versions. You have no record of what the other versions said.

A number of Companions memorised the Qur'an during the lifetime of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم including the four rightly-guided Caliphs (Abu Bakr, ʻUmar, ʻUthman, and ʻAli), ʻAbd Ar-Rahmaan ibn ʻAwf, Az-Zubayr ibn Al-ʻAwwaam, Muʻaath ibn Jabal, Ubayy ibn Kaʻb, Zayd ibn Thaabit, Abu Zayd, ʻAbdullaah ibn ʻAmr, and others

. So to say they 'simply memorise Uthmans Qur'an' is a very poor understanding of this topic and doesn't even make sense considering we have an exact record of the Qur'an via numerous chains of transmission going directly back to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم via multiple Companions.

Another key detail is that the action of Uthman رضي الله عنه was agreed upon by all of the Companions. Had any change occurred to the Qur'an, there would have been numerous people to object, but instead they approved of what occurred. In particular, the Companion Zayd ibn Thabit رضي الله عنه was a part of both committees assigned to the task of compiling the Mushaf at the time of Abubakr as well as Uthman, and Zayd himself witnessed the last recitation of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to Jibreel. He was also the primary scribe of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and had memorised the entire Qur'an during the lifetime of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. Any potential mistake or change in the compilation of the Qur'an would have been detected by him.

These are just a few reasons why it is inconceivable that the Qur'an we recite today is in any way different to what was recited by the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to the angel Jibreel in the final year. This is a point which is clear to any unbiased researcher, whether Muslim or not.

I however can prove to you there were additions and subtractions – just check the Sanaa Quran which is the oldest Quarn and different from the one you have today.

Firstly, to say that the San'a fragments are the 'oldest' is questionable because several dozen first-century manuscripts of the Qur'an exist in various libraries around the world. Secondly, the existence of minor differences in the text of the earliest masahif (manuscripts) is no surprise to Muslims familiar with the history of the compilation of the Qur'an. Such variations could be due to several reasons. For instance, the Companions initially had their own personal copies of the Qur'an which were not complete, authoritative copies. These were for personal use and as such the Companions could have written any knowledge besides the Qur'an such as interpretative clauses, prayers (du'as) etc. Another reason relates to the spelling of words. Interestingly, Dr. Puin who was associated with the restoration of the Qur'anic fragments in San'a, wrote a letter which was quoted in the Yemeni newspaper Ath-Thawra, in which he said:

'The important thing, thank God, is that these Yemeni Qur’anic fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur’an itself, but are rather differences in the way words are spelled. This phenomenon is well-known, even in the Qur’an published in Cairo in which is written...'​

At the end of the day, the primary way in which the Qur'an has been transmitted from generation to generation is orally. The presence of the teachers alongside each official copy, the ubiquitous recitation and memorization amongst Muslims and the countless other copies available for cross checking are reasons why even the slightest scribal error is immediately and outright rejected by the Muslim populace. It would only be a case in point if an error had gone unnoticed and resulted in a variant text amongst Muslims. But Muslims have forever been united on one text free of variants and even the slightest mistake could be recognised and rejected even by a child.

Also consider these original copies of the Quran occurred at a time of civil war amongst Muslims. Disputes and conflicting readings were occurring amongst the soldiers leading contributing to the political unrest. and three out of four of the early caliphs were murdered and eventually the Sunni Shia split occurred. When you put all of this together you have an volatile political and religious environment that would have politicized and corrupted the Quaran and hadith.

This is mere speculation and goes against factual information. Again, the points I highlighted above are enough to show that the Qur'an has been preserved throughout all ages and disputes.

Also how do you explain the differences of Quaran versions amongst Muslims at the time from the following hadith -?? Sahih al-Bukhari: vol. 6, bk. 60, no. 468. Sahih Muslim: bk. 4.
no,Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 041, Number 601. Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1787.

The following threads may help to shed some light on this:
[Uloom Al-Qur'an] The Qira'at and The Ahruf (islamicboard.com)
The revelation of the Qur’aan in seven styles (islamicboard.com)

Consider Muhammad himself had forgotten portions of the Qur'and Muhammad himself had forgotten portions of the Qur'an and needed his followers to remind him.

Please see: Reconciling between the verse “We shall make you to recite (the Qur’an), so you (O Muhammad shall not forget (it)” and the fact that the Prophet sometimes forgot when praying and otherwise - Islam Question & Answer (islamqa.info)

Please prove to me how the “previous scriptures were corrupted” You will not be able to. The Bible is highly reliable.

If you apply the same level of criticism to the Bible that you've been applying to the Qur'an, you will be forced to conclude that it is far from being 'highly reliable'. For instance, on the one hand we know that the entire Qur'an was revealed and memorised during the lifetime of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, such that it could be passed on to subsequent generations without alteration. On the other hand, the Bible was not complete until several decades after Jesus عليه السلام left this world. We also have the issue of different versions of the Bible each containing different numbers of books and many other issues which have been discussed numerous times before. Below is a list of threads where you can find some of them.

How can I prove the Quran has been unchanged in 1400years? (islamicboard.com)
One night at farmer's market....! (islamicboard.com)
Authority of the Scriptures
Questionnaire for the Christians
Qur'an: Does it say the Bible is inerrant
What is the proof that the Jews corrupted the Torah?
Corruption of Other Scriptures
Christianity is Man made! PROOF!
Proof that the Bible is ‘Corrupted’
The Bible not corrupted?
A Question Relating to the Bible being changed
Why do muslims use the bible if they don't 'believe' in it?
In search of the Injeel
What is the proof that the Jews corrupted the Torah?
I reverted to Islam tonight
Corruptions of other scriptures..

 

[Spiritlead]

Hello Spiritlead,

Brother AabiruSabeel has already covered the main points, but I thought I'd throw in a post as well for good measure.

In your posts I see you've been basing your points on speculation rather than factual information, which is quite disappointing and suggests you're not really interested in an honest discussion. If that's the case then I doubt any of us will waste time in providing further responses.

A number of Companions memorised the Qur'an during the lifetime of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم including the four rightly-guided Caliphs (Abu Bakr, ʻUmar, ʻUthman, and ʻAli), ʻAbd Ar-Rahmaan ibn ʻAwf, Az-Zubayr ibn Al-ʻAwwaam, Muʻaath ibn Jabal, Ubayy ibn Kaʻb, Zayd ibn Thaabit, Abu Zayd, ʻAbdullaah ibn ʻAmr, and others

. So to say they 'simply memorise Uthmans Qur'an' is a very poor understanding of this topic and doesn't even make sense considering we have an exact record of the Qur'an via numerous chains of transmission going directly back to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم via multiple Companions.

Another key detail is that the action of Uthman رضي الله عنه was agreed upon by all of the Companions. Had any change occurred to the Qur'an, there would have been numerous people to object, but instead they approved of what occurred. In particular, the Companion Zayd ibn Thabit رضي الله عنه was a part of both committees assigned to the task of compiling the Mushaf at the time of Abubakr as well as Uthman, and Zayd himself witnessed the last recitation of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to Jibreel. He was also the primary scribe of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and had memorised the entire Qur'an during the lifetime of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. Any potential mistake or change in the compilation of the Qur'an would have been detected by him.

These are just a few reasons why it is inconceivable that the Qur'an we recite today is in any way different to what was recited by the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to the angel Jibreel in the final year. This is a point which is clear to any unbiased researcher, whether Muslim or not.

Firstly, to say that the San'a fragments are the 'oldest' is questionable because several dozen first-century manuscripts of the Qur'an exist in various libraries around the world. Secondly, the existence of minor differences in the text of the earliest masahif (manuscripts) is no surprise to Muslims familiar with the history of the compilation of the Qur'an. Such variations could be due to several reasons. For instance, the Companions initially had their own personal copies of the Qur'an which were not complete, authoritative copies. These were for personal use and as such the Companions could have written any knowledge besides the Qur'an such as interpretative clauses, prayers (du'as) etc. Another reason relates to the spelling of words. Interestingly, Dr. Puin who was associated with the restoration of the Qur'anic fragments in San'a, wrote a letter which was quoted in the Yemeni newspaper Ath-Thawra, in which he said:

'The important thing, thank God, is that these Yemeni Qur’anic fragments do not differ from those found in museums and libraries elsewhere, with the exception of details that do not touch the Qur’an itself, but are rather differences in the way words are spelled. This phenomenon is well-known, even in the Qur’an published in Cairo in which is written...'​

At the end of the day, the primary way in which the Qur'an has been transmitted from generation to generation is orally. The presence of the teachers alongside each official copy, the ubiquitous recitation and memorization amongst Muslims and the countless other copies available for cross checking are reasons why even the slightest scribal error is immediately and outright rejected by the Muslim populace. It would only be a case in point if an error had gone unnoticed and resulted in a variant text amongst Muslims. But Muslims have forever been united on one text free of variants and even the slightest mistake could be recognised and rejected even by a child.
This is mere speculation and goes against factual information. Again, the points I highlighted above are enough to show that the Qur'an has been preserved throughout all ages and disputes.

The following threads may help to shed some light on this:
[Uloom Al-Qur'an] The Qira'at and The Ahruf (islamicboard.com)
The revelation of the Qur’aan in seven styles (islamicboard.com)

Please see: Reconciling between the verse “We shall make you to recite (the Qur’an), so you (O Muhammad shall not forget (it)” and the fact that the Prophet sometimes forgot when praying and otherwise - Islam Question & Answer (islamqa.info)


If you apply the same level of criticism to the Bible that you've been applying to the Qur'an, you will be forced to conclude that it is far from being 'highly reliable'. For instance, on the one hand we know that the entire Qur'an was revealed and memorised during the lifetime of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, such that it could be passed on to subsequent generations without alteration. On the other hand, the Bible was not complete until several decades after Jesus عليه السلام left this world. We also have the issue of different versions of the Bible each containing different numbers of books and many other issues which have been discussed numerous times before. Below is a list of threads where you can find some of them.

How can I prove the Quran has been unchanged in 1400years? (islamicboard.com)
One night at farmer's market....! (islamicboard.com)
Authority of the Scriptures
Questionnaire for the Christians
Qur'an: Does it say the Bible is inerrant
What is the proof that the Jews corrupted the Torah?
Corruption of Other Scriptures
Christianity is Man made! PROOF!
Proof that the Bible is ‘Corrupted’
The Bible not corrupted?
A Question Relating to the Bible being changed
Why do muslims use the bible if they don't 'believe' in it?
In search of the Injeel
What is the proof that the Jews corrupted the Torah?
I reverted to Islam tonight
Corruptions of other scriptures..

Hello Muhamad. Thanks for your reply.
“Speculation rather than factual information…” Have a good read. I have referenced my views with historical fact and references from the Quran and hadith. I think you are being defensive.

My reason for starting this post was an earlier point made by AabiruSabeel stating “Moreover, the original version (of the Torah) is no long preserved.” While his point was about the Torah and not the Injel it still reveals an obvious ignorance and arrogance within the Muslim world that Muslim scriptures are far above the level of scrutiny from those of Jews and Christians. I have adequately demonstrated this is not the case.

I will repeat some of my points as you seem to have either ignored or evaded them. Civil war and the early Caliphs being murdered with an obvious political influence on the development of the Quran and hadith. Civil war at this time is a fact. Not speculation.
And the facts remain the transmission is not as straight forward and reliable as Muslims wish to believe. Random verses written on leaves, wood, bones and stones. An oral tradition where Mohamad forgot a verse and recitation disputes amongst early believers. Copies that disagreed with the “official version” being burnt . You can argue for human / historical reliability as much as you like. However the Muslim view of the Quran as a divine literary miracle, a“well guarded tablet” is not justified.
You say “we have an exact record of the Qur'an via numerous chains of transmission going directly back to the Prophet via multiple Companions.” As I said you will never be able to prove this because no originals exist. The best you can do is assume a measure of reliability. Muslims cannot prove 100 % reliability which your miracle book demands.
Muslims say Uthmans Recension was only about dialects. If that was the case then why destroy them ? What was Uthman afraid of ? If there had not been serious differences between them, why would he have had to destroy such cherished copies of what all Muslims believe to be the miracle revealed Word of God? How can the Quran be the “miracle infallible word of God” if such drastic action needed to be taken?
As mentioned, this decision wasn’t based on the wisdom or a command of God but on one man’. The Bible has never had a wholesale burning to standardize its text in the way that the Qur'an has.
You say the existence of minor differences in the text of the earliest masahif (manuscripts) is no surprise to Muslims familiar with the history of the compilation of the Qur'an. Evidence however points to more than just minor differences. But even it they are just minor differences how can this be justified by “the Word of God made text”. A divine book from tablets in heaven. Immutable, The “Holy” Quran , a literary miracle !?

Regarding the Sanaa Quran. The Sanaa Quran is the most complete and oldest in existence.
If you research Puin and the Sanaa Quran you will see the context of Puins quote was about him protecting his research and access to the documents from the Yemeni authorities. Yemeni authorities had already debarred Puin and Bothmer from further examination of the manuscripts. Why ? Because it was challenging their “Holy Book”!
And following Toby Lester's 1999 article "What is the Koran”, Puin further reinforces his position that both the oral and written versions of the Quran “were not stable. “
“Not stable“ ! So lets quote Puin which challenges the Muslim divine view of the authoritative Quran.
“My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants.” [1]
Also …
The Quran claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen’, or clear. But [contrary to popular belief] if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply does not make sense…the fact is that a fifth of the Quranic text is just incomprehensible. If the Quran is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Quran claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on”.
And …
“So many Muslims have this belief that everything between the two covers of the Quran is just God’s unaltered word. They like to quote the textual work that shows that the Bible has a history and did not fall straight out of the sky, but until now the Quran has been out of discussion. The only way to break through this wall is to prove that the Quran has a history too. The Sana’a’s fragments will help us to do this.”
As I have said. Obviously the divinity attached to Quran is a lie. Muslims tell us that the Quran is a literary miracle but obviously it is not. My point remains. Muslims have no basis for an overly confident view of their own scriptures.

Yes I read your link about Mohmad forgetting a verse. As I said the fact remains. Muhammad’s failure of memory plus recitation disputes amongst early believers calls into question the blind Muslim view of the “miracle Quran” as a divine, literary miracle. A “well-guarded tablet” from heaven? No.

You are wrong to say if I apply the same level of criticism to the Bible that you've been applying to the Qur'an, I will be forced to conclude that it is far from being 'highly reliable'.Christians make a different claim about the Bible as opposed to the claims Muslims make about the Quran. Muslims see the Quran as a miracle, inerrant and literal. Christians see the Bible as not being inerrant but do see it is infallible. Christians view the Bible similar to how Muslims view their hadith.
You state the Bible was not complete until several decades after Jesus left this world. However what you don’t realise was that the accounts were memorised and passed on orally by the eye witnesses who were still alive at the time. There were also notes written that later contributed to the Gospels. Luke attests to that in the first chapter of The Gospel of Luke.

You say there were “different versions of the Bible each containing different numbers of books”… While there is some truth to that, what is common to them all were the four gospels – Mathew Mark, Luke and John, The Book of Acts and most of the letters. All of the letters were circulating amongst the Christian communities prior to the first attempt of compiling all sources.
And in terms of the reliability of transmission, the New Testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevented them from being gathered together and falsified. (Or burnt, as the Quran was!)

Below is a list of threads that attest to the reliability of the Bible.
https://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/is-the-bible-reliable/
https://www.---------------------/Bible/pbotapoc.html
https://reasonabletheology.org/reliability-bible-4-quick-thoughts/
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/bible/is-the-bible-reliable-the-evidence-we-know-so-far.html
https://evidencetobelieve.com/reliability-of-the-bible/
https://shepherds.edu/top-ten-attacks-against-the-bibles-historical-reliability/
https://reknew.org/2021/11/how-reliable-was-the-early-churchs-oral-traditions/