Question to Nicola and other Christians

[جوري]

This one should open ones eyes to more than the obvious contradictions:

[h=1]The Gospel Story Quiz[/h]

[TD="align: center"] Current Score: 0 out of 3 Question Number: 4[/TD]

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4. When Jesus and his disciples were walking toward Jerusalem after leaving Bethany that night, Jesus saw a fig tree and cursed it for not having figs. Did the tree wither immediately as they stood and watched or did it wither overnight?

It withered immediately
It withered overnight

_____________________

shouldn't the one who created the earth allegedly know not only your thoughts but what every tree bears of fruit?

[FONT=Verdana,arial]Al-An'am [6:59]

[SIZE=+2]وَعِندَهُ مَفَاتِحُ الْغَيْبِ لاَ يَعْلَمُهَا إِلاَّ هُوَ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا فِي الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ وَمَا تَسْقُطُ مِن وَرَقَةٍ إِلاَّ يَعْلَمُهَا وَلاَ حَبَّةٍ فِي ظُلُمَاتِ الأَرْضِ وَلاَ رَطْبٍ وَلاَ يَابِسٍ إِلاَّ فِي كِتَابٍ مُّبِينٍ
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WaAAindahu mafatihu alghaybi la yaAAlamuha illa huwa wayaAAlamu ma fee albarri waalbahri wama tasqutu min waraqatin illa yaAAlamuha wala habbatin fee thulumati alardi wala ratbin wala yabisin illa fee kitabin mubeenin​

6:59 With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).

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[MustafaMc]

Perhaps not strange, but awe-inspiring, amazing, miraculous, and humbling. ... I'm not sure exactly how one puts that in words...

Assalamu alaikum, sister. Yes, the thought of being chosen from among millions of Christian Americans to be guided to the Truth of Islam is most indeed as you described - particularly the humbling part. In contrast to the Jews sticking their chest out in pride at being "God's Chosen People" I am overcome with emotion that I am so undeserving of that immeasurably great blessing that has been shown to me. I am reminded of the Christian song, 'Why Me Lord?' with the lyrics "Why me Lord? What have I ever done to deserve even one of the pleasures I've known? Lord, what did I ever do to deserve loving You, or the kindness You've shown?"

 

[MustafaMc]

Sharing the message does not mean that one is not showing respect love and care, but that our concern is not just of this world, and that we want the best for people not only in this world, but also in the hereafter. We care about what happens to them even after they die. There can be no greater care for humanity than that.

Assalamu alaikum, your words brought to mind the Pied Piper of Hamlin. If we hold the Truth (as we believe we do), would we not be heartless and uncaring to just sing the Barney song "I love you, you love me, we're a happy family..." while others are led astray to the Hellfire? Should we not do our best to share the Message and to see them saved from eternal torment? With that said, I fully agree with what you wrote, "There can be no greater care for humanity than that."

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Insaanah;

Also, please note that we cannot as Muslims, and will not, say, you're ok, we're ok, it's all good. That's not the case. We've discussed this before, very recently, here: http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1537249 (American Pastor partakes in the holy month of Ramadan). Our duty is to share what we know to be the truth.

This is an Islamic forum and I would not expect any different, we also have this same attitude to truth on Christian forums, but truth and doctrine divides people.
Love and service to others brings people together, praying for others despite our differences brings about a caring society. Working together for justice for all people, the poor, oppressed, sick and elderly brings people together despite our differences.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

 

[Insaanah]

Greetings of peace Eric.

truth and doctrine divides people.

I disagree. Perhaps that depends on your own outlook. My neighbours are atheist on one side, and Roman Catholic on the other. We share our faith with them, explain why we believe the concept of Jesus (peace be upon him) being divine and the trinity etc is wrong, and explain using evidences from both sources, and explain what we believe to be the belief that God sent for mankind. Yet, we have very good neighbourly relations with them. They have been there for us in our times of need, as we have been for them. And Islamically, keeping good relations with our neighbours and being good to them is very important. The rights of neighbours are so important in Islam that people thought that they might also be assigned a share in inheritance, so much emphasis was placed on being good to them.

Also we have Jehovahs Witnesses knocking on our door most weeks, and we have religious discussion with them. They are people I don't know. On occasion, when there's been time, they've been invited in to sit down and for a cup of tea. Now, because we disagree on matters of faith, even if I don't know them, does that mean that if one of them fell down, that I wouldn't help them or rush to their aid and do everything I could for them?

I don't understand this view amongst some of the non-Muslims here (in this thread as well as others), that if you share what you believe to be the truth, that somehow causes division, and means that you're not willing to understand the other, not willing to explore shared values and similarities, not willing to accept the other, not willing to have good relations with them, you have no respect and care for them, and are somehow fighting them and judging them.

It is almost as though, for Muslims to be viewed in a good light, we must not talk about Islam, must not share it, must not convey the message of the Qur'an, and I see this particular pressure on Muslims only. Somehow, we must "de-Islamize", in order to be accepted as friendly citizens of society wishing to have good relations, or as mentioned in another thread, it has been suggested that we adopt the practices of other religions to prove ourselves as wanting to discover shared values. The choices seem to be, that we either keep quiet, change, dilute/water down, or amalgamate with other faiths, and at the same time as any of these, must loudly proclaim the "everything is love, we love everyone!" cause.

Love and service to others brings people together, praying for others despite our differences brings about a caring society. Working together for justice for all people, the poor, oppressed, sick and elderly brings people together despite our differences.

While these things may bring people together, and are wonderful things to do, encouraged in Islam as well, religion does not divide. It informs. While in this world we may be pleased seeing people brought together (and it's good if they're helped in the process), our concern, as Muslims, is not just of this world. We'd like to see people together in the hereafter too. In a good place. And to that end, we make efforts. Just as Jesus (peace be upon him) will say to God, that he only said to people, "Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord", so do we wish also to be able to say, like him, that we did our best in conveying the message accurately.

People have a right to know the true message from God, it's importance, the consequences of not following it, and that they have a choice. But that choice must be an informed choice. And even once they have made that choice, there are reminders.

Peace.

 

[glo]

Love and service to others brings people together, praying for others despite our differences brings about a caring society. Working together for justice for all people, the poor, oppressed, sick and elderly brings people together despite our differences.

Nicely put, Eric. I agree.

Religious differences will always be there, and people will always feel the need (and calling) to discuss and debate them.
But if our desire is to make this world a better, more peaceful, more caring, more just place, then we would do better to put aside our differences, if only for the sake of pooling our energy and resources to help those who need our help.

Perhaps we should put our religious differences aside until we have accomplished to fulfill those teachings and instructions which our religions share. When we live in a world without hunger and war and injustice and cruelty, then we can start discussing the finer theological points.

Insaanah, I understand the point you are making about this being an Islamic forum with the remit of furthering Islam by teaching and informing about it. I respect that.

But if Islam teaches that it is important to be charitable and to care for those in need (and I know that it does), then is it unreasonable to suggest that Christians and Muslims (and people from other faiths) should work together towards that common goal?

 

[glo]

BTW, I wonder what became of Nicola?

 

[Scimitar]

You know, people who bash other religions, need their heads bashed in.

Sorry... but i'm all about tolerance. But I cant stand it when people bash other peoples faiths.

Scimi

 

[Insaanah]

Greetings.

But if our desire is to make this world a better, more peaceful, more caring, more just place, then we would do better to put aside our differences, if only for the sake of pooling our energy and resources to help those who need our help.

Perhaps we should put our religious differences aside until we have accomplished to fulfill those teachings and instructions which our religions share. When we live in a world without hunger and war and injustice and cruelty, then we can start discussing the finer theological points.

I see Christians (perhaps not all, but some) have a different point of view that differences must be put aside and not talked of, and if we don't, the world cannot be a better, caring place, and we cannot work together.

As Muslims, we have no such notion or restriction. We can disagree on matters of faith, and work to make the world a better place, and we feel very able to do so. As mentioned in my post, I do not agree with matters of faith with my neighbour, but we work together and help each other wherever it's needed. Neither of us has ever felt the need to pretend that we agree, or to hide them and brush them under the carpet, or that we can only work together if we put them aside, or we can only work together if we are somehow the same.

Perhaps Christians (my neighbour excluded) don't feel able to, or don't feel comfortable doing so - don't know, can't answer that one.

Also, as a side note, we don't see the worship of one God as a "fine theological point". It is the biggest, the most important and very major.

But if Islam teaches that it is important to be charitable and to care for those in need (and I know that it does), then is it unreasonable to suggest that Christians and Muslims (and people from other faiths) should work together towards that common goal?

I don't recall anyone suggesting otherwise. Muslims, Christians, and people of other faiths often already work together to alleviate suffering in various countries. The Disasters Emergency Committee is just one example I'm sure you're already aware of, and there are also examples on a smaller scale.

Peace.

 

[~Zaria~]

Perhaps we should put our religious differences aside until we have accomplished to fulfill those teachings and instructions which our religions share. When we live in a world without hunger and war and injustice and cruelty, then we can start discussing the finer theological points.

Assalamu-alaikum/ Greetings,

I havent had the chance to read through this entire thread, but insha Allah just wanted to comment on the above.

We are clearly working from 2 different concepts of reality:

When we ask ourselves: 'Why are we here on earth?', 'What is our purpose?'

--> A believer will answer: My purpose is the WORSHIP OF THE ONE WHO HAS CREATED ME.

For Allah (subhanawataála) says in the Quraan:

“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”


[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]

This is our prerogative.

This is the reason why we are here.
​

Whatever else is occuring around us - both in our private lives, and on a larger scale are merely tests for mankind.
--> A means of differentiating the sincere, stead-fast believer from the hypocrite and disbeliever.

Yes, hunger, war, injustice and cruelty - are important aspects of life, that need our attention.

But never at the expense of losing focus of our actual purpose.

Never at the expense of placing our 'religious differences' aside.
--> It is these 'religious differences' that make us MUSLIM.

And it is just as important, if not more, than ANY other worldly occurence.

When we live in a world without hunger and war and injustice and cruelty, then we can start discussing the finer theological points.

The problem with this concept is that until the arrival of Isa (alaihi salam) (Jesus) to earth/ after defeat of the Dajjal (The anti-christ) - we are not expecting to see a world without these evils.

This is the decree of Allah (subhanawata'la).

We are approaching a very dark period for mankind.

So, while we may continue striving against the forces of shaytaan - as a means of gaining the pleasure of Allah - we understand this grand plan in the making.

Which is why, we can never dismiss 'discussing the finer theological points'.

--> This is the Islam we are living.
--> Without knowledge of our deen (religion) - would be like trying to reach success, without the aid of Allah!

And the one who thinks he can ever succeed without Allah (subhanawata'la) - with regards to anything in life - is truly at a loss.

:wa:

 

[Scimitar]

I guess we're all forgetting the jews, Christians and Muslims all lived together in perfect peace in Jerusalem pre-crusades. facepalm.

Scimi

 

[~Zaria~]

We are now in the post-crusade era......

We can certainly live in peace - but lets not undermine our differences.

This is Islam - and while we have similarities with the other Abrahamic faiths, it is our DIFFERENCES that would matter the most on the Day of Qiyamat (Judgement).

So important are these differences - that one group is rewarded with eternal paradise and the others with eternal punishment in hell-fire.

This is no small matter.

And if we can love one another - as if they are our brothers and sisters - then we would want to scream out these differences, in calling them to Islam - because we can not bear the thought of the consequences.

May Allah grant us all this understanding, love and compassion for each other.
Ameen.

 

[Scimitar]

Debate and discussion is useless if one is convinced they are correct in their way... the only other way to show truth is to lead by example.

And that is where the fruits manifest. Know the line: "By their fruits ye shall know them" - this is in the bible. Don;t think for a second that Christians don't know truth when they see it... what they wanna see if it is possible to live that way. Unfortunately, in these times - Muslims paint a bad picture of our faith.

So... talk is cheap, if you can't follow it up with action - that they can be witness to.

Scimi

 

[glo]

We can disagree on matters of faith, and work to make the world a better place, and we feel very able to do so.

Amen to that, sister Insaanah. :statisfie

 

[glo]

Know the line: "By their fruits ye shall know them" - this is in the bible.

That is true.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."
I see those qualities in some Christians and not in others; in some Muslims and not in others; in some people of other faiths and not others ...

 

[Scimitar]

Debate and discussion is useless if one is convinced they are correct in their way... the only other way to show truth is to lead by example.

And that is where the fruits manifest. Know the line: "By their fruits ye shall know them" - this is in the bible. Don;t think for a second that Christians don't know truth when they see it... what they wanna see if it is possible to live that way. Unfortunately, in these times - Muslims paint a bad picture of our faith.

So... talk is cheap, if you can't follow it up with action - that they can be witness to.

And you know when the last time that was? Pre Crusade - Under Muslim caliphate... under shariah law

More I look into shariah, the more I want to see it implemented fully in the Muslim countries. On a social front - the rules of it - form the basis for an ideal society even modern day. It is kinda cool...

... But at the moment, there is a fight for 2 world powers. One wants to rule over all of humanity as a tyrant. And the other wants to emerge and bring back the golden times...

One world order agenda... and the kaliphate. Doesn't take a genius to figure it out.

Scimi

 

[MustafaMc]

And if we can love one another - as if they are our brothers and sisters - then we would want to scream out these differences, in calling them to Islam - because we can not bear the thought of the consequences.

May Allah grant us all this understanding, love and compassion for each other.

Assalamu alaikum, sister, I agree with you. I don't talk about religion to every 'Tom, Dick and Harry' I meet on the street, but when I perceive an interest or an opportunity to share a word or more about my faith I do. I perceive that those who are participants on an Islamic forum are interested in discussing religion which I try to do so in a manner that would be somewhat consistent with what I understand of Prophet Muhammad's (saaws) example. I am supportive of mutual tolerance for differences, but without watering down our faith or neglecting the responsibility I feel to share the message of tawheed.

 

[MustafaMc]

A quote from Warith Deen Muhammad in 1989, "We are obligated to seek peaceful co-existence with Christians and people of Faith... the similarities are so much more important that we need not focus on the differences. We see Christians and Jews as people of the Book. We should not ask them to take their shahadah…"

I happened to come across this tonight and thought it was revelant to this discussion. I don't see that his statement is consistent with Islamic principles. Note that WD Muhammad broke away from the Nation of Islam that remains under the leadership of Farrakhan; however, his followers yet maintain distinct separation from orthodox Muslims even after his death.

 

[Eric H]

Blessings and peace be with you MustafaMC my friend;

A quote from Warith Deen Muhammad in 1989, "We are obligated to seek peaceful co-existence with Christians and people of Faith... the similarities are so much more important that we need not focus on the differences. We see Christians and Jews as people of the Book. We should not ask them to take their shahadah…"

I firmly believe that God wants salvation for everyone on Earth, despite all our differences. Beyond any doubt whatsoever, I believe that God has given me a chance for salvation through the Catholic Faith, this I believe to be the absolute truth. If I lost my Christian faith I would be an atheist, I cannot convert to any other faith because of the way I understand the Bible.

I look at your faith in Islam, Allah has chosen a path for you through Islam, and if Allah has chosen you, then who am I to oppose the will of Allah.

My intentions on this forum have always been to strive towards greater interfaith friendship, understanding and cooperation.

Truth is a tricky subject, because it leads people to do things based on their truth. I am reminded of the Spanish Inquisitions when people believed that they should spread their truth to all people because it was the only way to eternal salvation. Torturing people into believing was a valid option because they would then gain salvation.

I believe that God has given each of us scriptures to change ourselves, when we use our scriptures to try and change others we tend to fail.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

 

[Aprender]

If I lost my Christian faith I would be an atheist, I cannot convert to any other faith because of the way I understand the Bible.

Interesting. I've heard a few Christians say something similar to this. But more so that they would rather become an atheist than think of embracing Islam.

Interestingly enough for me after I no longer believed in Christianity as the truth through years of study, I did not lose my faith in God. I still believed. I just wasn't sure which was the right path to take where that truth was but I knew it was out there. I'm reminded of Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding." For a long time I tried to force modern Christianity on myself even though I no longer believed in it. That changed after some intense prayer.

So I began to study other religions and secular life philosophies. And I kept searching until I found what made sense. Atheism wasn't an option.