Questions about the Bible

[- Qatada -]

Re: Did you read Holy Quran ? How it is different from ur holy Book ?

Yeah, i understand kinda. How about the people who might have done alot of evil but still have faith, what happens to them?


Sorry for my ignorance.

 

[Malaikah]

Re: Did you read Holy Quran ? How it is different from ur holy Book ?

Christians believe that we cannot earn salvation by deeds (because we would never be good enough by God's standards). Therefore Christianity teaches that we gain salvation through faith.

Hi Glo,

If actions can never be enough to gain salvation, then are you saying faith itself can be enough to gain salvation?

In Islam, neither faith nor deeds are enough to save a person- because the blessing that God has given us are just too great for us to ever be fully appreciative of them. Instead, it is purely by the Mercy of God that people with both faith and good deeds will enter paradise...

 

[snakelegs]

Re: Did you read Holy Quran ? How it is different from ur holy Book ?

This reflects much of the Christian thinking:
Christians do not try to live good lives to earn God's favour - they have already gained it through faith.
Instead they try to live good lives, because they know it is what God wants them to do.
If you love God and want to please him, leading a good life seems a small sacrifice to make ...

There is a Christian motto which says: "Hate the sin, but love the sinner"
That's based on Jesus' example to us.

Peace

Christian Woman

hi glo,
doesn't the reward/punishment in the hereafter also play a strong role?

 

[glo]

Re: Did you read Holy Quran ? How it is different from ur holy Book ?

Hi Glo,

If actions can never be enough to gain salvation, then are you saying faith itself can be enough to gain salvation?

In Islam, neither faith nor deeds are enough to save a person- because the blessing that God has given us are just too great for us to ever be fully appreciative of them. Instead, it is purely by the Mercy of God that people with both faith and good deeds will enter paradise...

Greetings, cheese

Since we are going off topic, and there was already a very interesting thread on this topic (well, I thought so! ), perhaps you want to look here.

Peace

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Did you read Holy Quran ? How it is different from ur holy Book ?

Salaam/peace ;

...............Jesus forgives her sins, but at the same time he tells her to stop sinning.......

yap but the crowd who left them already got the message that aduletery is not a sin & they should not try to punish any one for it.
Thus , they might be encourged to do that sin. Is that the lady who later became his followers & some Christians believed Jesus (p) even married her ?


Anyway , what's the final situation here ? Is adultery a sin regarding Bible ? What's the punishment ?

 

[glo]

Re: Did you read Holy Quran ? How it is different from ur holy Book ?

Salaam/peace ;

yap but the crowd who left them already got the message that aduletery is not a sin & they should not try to punish any one for it. Thus , they might be encourged to do that sin.

That's an interesting point of view.

I will give you my take on this, but I welcome other Christians to contribute ...

I don't think those people walked away, thinking adultery was from now on permitted ... or even feeling encouraged to commit adultery themselves ... :uuh:
Read the story again:

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her. "Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." (John 8:3-15)

Notice that these were teachers of the law and Pharisees.
They were not asking Jesus for advice, they wanted two things:

• Firstly, see justice done on the woman, i.e. have her stoned
• Secondly - and more interestingly - they wanted to find a way of accusing Jesus.

During his ministry, Jesus' emphasis was on forgiveness. If he now publically declared that the woman should be let go, they could accuse him of breaking the law and have him arrested.
But Jesus knows what they are scheming, and therefore responds by saying "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her. "
Do you see what he is doing? The Bible says 'Judge not, or you will be judged yourself'. The Bible teaches us that we are all sinners.
Jesus is leaving them to search their own hearts and consciences, and to realise that none of them is without sin themselves.

So the people do not walk away because they suddenly think adultery is permitted. Instead they walk away because

1. They have not managed to accuse Jesus of law-breaking, and
2. He has reminded them painfully that they are sinners too!

Is that the lady who later became his followers & some Christians believed Jesus (p) even married her ?

I don't know if there is any Biblical evidence that this woman was Mary Magdalene ...

It may well be that there are people who believe Jesus was married, and some of them may even call themselves Christians, but I can assure you that none of the main Christian denominations believe this!

Anyway , what's the final situation here ? Is adultery a sin regarding Bible ? What's the punishment ?

Well, looking at Jesus' example I would say that adultery is sin and the punishment is forgiveness. kay:
(I anticipate that this will seem a controversial if not offensive statement, so let me explain here and now what I mean:
According to Christianity, if you truly repent a sin and ask God for forgiveness, he will forgive you. But you will be expected to demonstrate your repentence and remorse by abstaining from your sin from them onwards! (Of course, in reality that is not always so easy. Sometimes it can be very difficult to leave a certain sinful habit ... but that's for another thread perhaps ...)
Just as Jesus said: "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Do you think that's soft? Do you think Jesus is unfair? Would you like to see justice being done and the woman stoned to death?
Well, that's not what Jesus teaches ...
Being forgiven can be a pretty humbling experience sometimes, and it can turn lives around. Many Christians can witness to this (I won't go any further on this, because it would not be appropriate in an Islamic forum)

Peace

 

[Keltoi]

Re: Did you read Holy Quran ? How it is different from ur holy Book ?

Very good perspective Glo

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Did you read Holy Quran ? How it is different from ur holy Book ?

Salaam/peace ;

......... those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there....

--This line gives a picture that all left that woman except Jesus (p). So , chances are high that they did not hear what Jesus (p) told her .


I also hear a lecture of Dr. Zakir Naik . he said something like this , the story was ignored by most Gospel writers & many Christian scholars think it could be fake.

adultery is sin and the punishment is forgiveness.

---- if the sinners repent sincerely , then may be it's ok . Otherwise , adultery could become a normal practice.

Also , i think , it’s better to get punishment in this world for our any sin/mistake ; so that on the Last Day , we don’t have to stand in front of God Almighty as a sinner & get punishment from Him.

Do you think that's soft? Do you think Jesus is unfair? Would you like to see justice being done and the woman stoned to death

----once a woman came to Prophet Muhammed (p) & asked him to punish her because of her adultery. He ignored her & turned his face .

The woman again came in front of him & requested him to give punishment . She also informed him that she is pregnant. Then the Prophet (p) told her to come after she gives birth.

Later , the woman again came & the Prophet (p) again let her go by saying that she must fulfill the time of giving milk ( breastfeeding ) to the baby.


When AGAIN the woman returned & told him that the time is over , only then the stoning took place. After the death of that lady , a man said something bad about her & the Prophet (p) scolded him by saying that ( not the exact words ) , one blood drop of this lady is enough to remove the sins of all who stoned him or something like that.


The lessons i learnt from that hadith is the Prophet (p) gave several chances to let her go . But as she repeatedly came back & wanted to get punishment in this world rather than be punished on the Last Day , the Prophet (p) punished her .

Also , regarding Islamic law , if a case is taken to the authority , then justice should be done. Otherwise , personal sin can be forgiven/ignored (most probably) if anybody does not compalin or take matter to the authority.



There is no stoning verse in Quran. So , may be , this punishment took place regarding previous law ( Taurat most probably ) when the specific verses on punishment did not revealed to the Prophet (p).


Anyway , i m not scholar . So , not 100 % sure about the punishment of adultery in Islam. I mean , i know there is no such verse in Quran but don't know why many think regarding only one hadith ( or more ??? ) that stoning to death is prescribed .

 

[glo]

Re: Did you read Holy Quran ? How it is different from ur holy Book ?

I also hear a lecture of Dr. Zakir Naik . he said something like this , the story was ignored by most Gospel writers & many Christian scholars think it could be fake.

You are right. The story of Jesus and the adulteress is not included in all Bible versions, and where it is included, it ususally comes with a comment that 'the earliest manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not contain it'

I scrolled through most of Grace Seeker's posts to find one very informative one he had written on the authenticity of this story:

Of this particular story, what the scholars say is: It is absent from such early and diverse manuscripts as p66, p75, Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, and about 27 others of the best known and most reliable manuscripts. Plus it is also absent from the oldest of the syriac manuscripts, as well as the Sahidic and Bohairic manuscripts and all but 5 of the 30 Armenian manuscripts.

No Greek Church Father prior to the 12th century even comments on it. Though it is found as early as the fourth century, it isn't till the 6th century that it begins to appear regularly in the Latin church and around this same time in the syriac manuscripts.

So, how did it become some widespread in the church today? Well, Jerome included it in his translation of the Bible from Greek into Latin in his well known Vulgate. In 1516 Erasmus edited a text of the Greek New Testament. He had few Greek manuscripts available to him, and when in doubt used Jerome's Vulgate to guide him as to which to accept as most accurate. Sometimes even having to translate it himself back out of the Latin Vulgate into Greek because he had no Greek manuscript available to him for that portion of the Bible. It is Erasmus' edition of the Greek New Testament which Guttenberg used when printing the first book, the Bible, on a printing press. Subsequent to that historic event, Erasmus' text was given the moniker "Textus Receptus" (or received text) and for generations many thought it was the most accurate text available. The Textus Receptus is the text behind the King James Version of the Bible, which was the most popular English language Bible in the USA until just recently and still distributed by the millions across the globe.

So, given that it probably shouldn't be in the Bible, why is it included? It is undoubtedly an ancient story, at least as old as the 4th century, and probably older. It appears to come from an oral tradition about Jesus, even if not actually penned by John. Thus the story might be authentic. (I am still of the opinion that it is apocryphal.) The best answer is that all scholars recognize that it shouldn't be included. And some versions do not include it. But, most publishers are hesitant to completely remove such a well know story and take the tactic used by the NIV, they set it off either by brackets or a change in print type to indicate that readers should take note of something different about this passage, and then have a note that most reliable early manuscripts omit the passage.

So, given this we are discussing a story, which may or may not be authentic ... but hey, you brought it up ... kay:

In NT , about Jesus ‘s (p) forgiving the prostitute , I was confused . Does it mean , Jesus (p) sanctioned adultery / prostitution ? It can’t be so .

Given that your post was expressing your confusion about Jesus' forgiveness, and how it may be perceived as condoning sinful behaviour, perhaps it would be useful to look at other Bible passages, where Jesus forgives and then instructs that person to leave the sinful life.
When I have more time I will look for other examples ...

---- if the sinners repent sincerely , then may be it's ok . Otherwise , adultery could become a normal practice.

But God alone knows if and to what extend somebody's repentance is sincere - all the more reason to leave the jdgement to God himself. Would you agree?

Also , i think , it’s better to get punishment in this world for our any sin/mistake ; so that on the Last Day , we don’t have to stand in front of God Almighty as a sinner & get punishment from Him.

I understand that that is very much an Islamic perspective on sin and punishment.

I'm not a scholar either. Just somebody who loves God's word.

Peace

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

..... leave the jdgement to God himself. Would you agree?

------ does it mean we won’t punish a child killer , we won’t punish a rapist ? We will leave the matter for the Last Day ?

In the mean time , how many innocent lives will be destroyed by those sinners ?


If u r specifically talking about adultery , then as I said earlier , personal sin can be ignored if nobody takes the matter to the court/authority. Otherwise , judge needs to give verdict regarding holy Book.



If a man accuses his wife of adultery without providing four good witnesses, and she denies it, he is to be whipped for slander unless he swears four times that he is telling the truth, and the fifth time that he invokes the curse of Allah on himself if he is lying.



The wife can avert the punishment by swearing four times that he is a liar, and a fifth time she invokes the wrath of Allah upon herself if he is telling the truth. After this, the marriage is dissolved forever, and they can never marry each other again.

It is recommended that a man divorce his wife rather than dissolving the marriage in this way."





Allah Almighty says: “As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth.



And yet a fifth invoking the curse of Allah on him if he is of those who lie.


And it shall avert the punishment from her if she bear witness before Allah four times that he is of those who are liars. And a fifth (time) that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he is of those who speak the truth.” (An-Nur: 6-9)






The above quotation is excerpted with slight modifications from

http://www.stanford.edu/group/ISSU/Info/hussein/node55.html


Once a man asked permission from Prophet Muhammed (p) to do adultery. The Prophet (p) asked ( not the exact words ) : will u be happy if any man commits zina ( adultery ) with ur mother ? He said , no .


Then the Prophet (p) again asked , will u be happy if anybody commits zina with ur wife ? Again the man said , no. What about with ur sister & daughter ….each time , man answered no & no.



Then the Prophet (p) said , if u don’t want that somebody else does it with ur mother , wife , sister , daughter ; then how can do the same with other men’s mom , wife, sis , daughter ?

Then the man realized his mistake & promised not to do that.

To my knowledge , Jesus (p) in Bible forbid men to even look at the women ; it would considered as adultery ( can’t remember the exact verse ….meaning is like that ).



So, I don’t know , why adultery is so common in the west . May be , many Christians are not reading Bible properly

 

[dougmusr]

So, I don’t know , why adultery is so common in the west . May be , many Christians are not reading Bible properly

This is based on the misconception that being a westerner is synonymous with being a Christian. In fact, most western countries are far from Christian. The EU is reluctant to put a reference to God in their constitution, many in the US want all government buildings purged of references to God, want the pledge taken out of schools, etc.

 

[Umar001]

This is based on the misconception that being a westerner is synonymous with being a Christian. In fact, most western countries are far from Christian. The EU is reluctant to put a reference to God in their constitution, many in the US want all government buildings purged of references to God, want the pledge taken out of schools, etc.

That doesn't neccesarily show that they don't believe in God, maybe they have the understanding that 'Leave on to Ceaser which is of Ceaser and unto God that which is of God' or something like that, to mean that things should be without the mention of God in one area and in their personal life then they can have God.

 

[rav]

If a man accuses his wife of adultery without providing four good witnesses, and she denies it, he is to be whipped for slander unless he swears four times that he is telling the truth, and the fifth time that he invokes the curse of Allah on himself if he is lying.

And if a women is raped and she has no witnesses then she is guilty of adultry???

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ;

This is based on the misconception that being a westerner is synonymous with being a Christian. In fact, most western countries are far from Christian. The EU is reluctant to put a reference to God in their constitution, many in the US want all government buildings purged of references to God, want the pledge taken out of schools, etc.

sorry i did not write it to hurt anyone's feeling...let me clarify. In US , UK, Canada , France etc , most people are Chrisitans , right ?
So, does not matter what is in the constition....don't u think they should follow what their holy Books are commanding them ?

Yes , of Couse many Muslims are guilty of committing adultery , but most probably they know that they are doing wrong ; so try to do these secretly. But , living together , having love childs etc are so common / practised in the west where '' followers '' of Christ (p) live.

Why u think , they do it ? Surely Bible does not allow it .

 

[dougmusr]

That doesn't neccesarily show that they don't believe in God, maybe they have the understanding that 'Leave on to Ceaser which is of Ceaser and unto God that which is of God' or something like that, to mean that things should be without the mention of God in one area and in their personal life then they can have God.

The Bible says Satan believes in God. I would think a large portion of the world population believes in God. Belief in God does not make one a Christian.

So, I don’t know , why adultery is so common in the west . May be , many Christians are not reading Bible properly

The inference of the statement was that most of the western world is Christian, and Christians don't read their Bible, so thay feel adultry is OK.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace ;

And if a women is raped and she has no witnesses then she is guilty of adultry???

4 men ( eye witneseed ) must testify against her that she commited zina . If a man complains against any woman but failed to bring witnesses & prove the accusation , he will be lashed for 80 or 100 times & his testimony will be invalid forever.


I 've to go now...if u want answer in details, Insha Allah will write later.

 

[dougmusr]

In US , UK, Canada , France etc , most people are Chrisitans , right ?

I would say that if you polled them a majority would say they were Christian. Probe a bit further when asking the question. Ask what it takes to be a Christian. Ask when they became one. Ask how being a Christian has altered their life.

 

[rav]

4 men ( eye witneseed ) must testify against her that she commited zina . If a man complains against any woman but failed to bring witnesses & prove the accusation , he will be lashed for 80 or 100 times & his testimony will be invalid forever.

Okay, now what if the women cannot prove she was raped because no one saw it. Is she punished because of sex before marriage?

 

[Muslim Knight]

Okay, now what if the women cannot prove she was raped because no one saw it. Is she punished because of sex before marriage?

The woman who had been raped is not punished.

This has been discussed here

 

[rav]

The woman who had been raped is not punished.

This has been discussed here

Yeah, but she doesn;t have the witnesses so how do we know she was raped?