Sikhism

Mohsin said:
So is that the authentic story behind Guru Nanek pointiong his feet towards the Ka'bah, because its completely incorrect to believe muslims believe God resides there or that is the only direction of God and you can't pray to God unless you face there.
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Well that's what people believed at the time. Guru ji wasn't out to offend, he was making a point, and very well made i'd say!
 
AvarAllahNoor said:
Well that's what people believed at the time. Guru ji wasn't out to offend, he was making a point, and very well made i'd say!
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Well if he was a prophet/God surely he'd know muslims dont believe God resides in kab'ah.

Also i find the whole story very unlikely. Number one there is no historical narration of it anywhere.Muslims are doing tawaf of Ka'bah constantly, yet noone noticed Kab'ah move :?
Also if muslims saw a man do this they'd think he was the devil or something and wouldn't bow down to him they'd kill him
 
Mohsin said:
Well if he was a prophet/God surely he'd know muslims dont believe God resides in kab'ah.

Also i find the whole story very unlikely. Number one there is no historical narration of it anywhere.Muslims are doing tawaf of Ka'bah constantly, yet noone noticed Kab'ah move :?
Also if muslims saw a man do this they'd think he was the devil or something and wouldn't bow down to him they'd kill him
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First point -

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GEUA,GEUA:2006-20,GEUA:en&q=guru+nanak+and+the+kaaba

Second point -

''Also if muslims saw a man do this they'd think he was the devil or something and wouldn't bow down to him they'd kill him''

That's the difference between the real Muslims and ignorant folk like yourself!
 
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AvarAllahNoor said:
First point -

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GEUA,GEUA:2006-20,GEUA:en&q=guru+nanak+and+the+kaaba

Second point -

''Also if muslims saw a man do this they'd think he was the devil or something and wouldn't bow down to him they'd kill him''

That's the difference between the real Muslims and ignorant folk like yourself!
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Bro you shouldn't always assume these things. Where did i ever say i would do that? I suppose i should stoop down to your level and your assumption is the difference between real sikhs and ignorant assuming sikhs? Would that be fair? No. So why did you say that?

Now its totally different, if a muslim in mecca saw someone move the kab'ah he would think its the devil, and would kill the guy not worship him


And regarding the very first link you provided, its full of errors

He put on the blue dress, worn by hajjis
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:? Was Guru nanek inventing his own hajj. this is completely false

Hajjis carry under their arms their sacred Book, the Koran
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What, who is telling you guys this. I'm sorry but based on these clear false facts, how can one believe the story of the Ka'bah moving. Muslims would have gone crazy, liek i said before someone is always performing tawaf of the Ka'bah, so how could this have happened. People would have gone crazy they wouldn't have known what is going on, the ka'bah moving?! There would have been crazy riots and big time questions asked, and it would be written is the history books, but yet there is no evidence for this.

And also, you haven't refurted the point how sikhs always mistakenly think Ka'bah is God's residing place. Surely Guru Nanek being a prophet of an all-knowing God would have known this is not what islam teaches
 
Mohsin said:
And also, you haven't refurted the point how sikhs always mistakenly think Ka'bah is God's residing place. Surely Guru Nanek being a prophet of an all-knowing God would have known this is not what islam teaches
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Islam does not teach beaheadings, Forced conversion, rape etc etc but it occurs! In those times this is what people were doing just as they did in Mohammeds (pbuh) time. Guru ji came to teach them that they had drifted off the path of God! So this is the way he chose to do it (as God instructed).

If you believe it or not, is of irrelevance. Just as you believe the miracle perfomed by Mohammed (pbuh) 'Splitting of the Moon' (are you even aware of it?) we believe Guru Nanak performed a miracle!

Good day to you sir!
 
Bro sorry if i offended you. I didn't intend to come accross in such a way. I have great respect for your open-mindedness and respect you show in your posts

Yes i'm aware of the moon but there are narrations of people from other places seeing the splitting of the moon.

And even if i was to agree with you that Guru nanek was only talking to a few muslims who thought that, why did he make it out as if all muslims believe this.
Also, i doubt any muslims would have honestly thought God lives in the Ka'bah. Its self-contradicting illogical and goes agianst God's attributes. if the stroy relating to Guru Nanek is true, then the only reason the muslims would have told him to move his feet away is out of respect for the Ka'bah, since Abraham PBUH and his son Ismail PBUH built it together for the worship of God and God purified the land around it. So it doesn't give Guru Nanek any reason to wrongly perceive Muslims as believing God lives in there
 
Can I step in? Thanks.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Mohsin said:
So is that the authentic story behind Guru Nanek pointiong his feet towards the Ka'bah, because its completely incorrect to believe muslims believe God resides there or that is the only direction of God and you can't pray to God unless you face there.
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Bhai Gurdas Ji's work is the only work in Sikh history to be authorized by Guru Arjan Dev Ji. So yes it is authentic. There have been many other scholars after him, but his work is the most important.

Mohsin said:
Well if he was a prophet/God surely he'd know muslims dont believe God resides in kab'ah.
Also i find the whole story very unlikely. Number one there is no historical narration of it anywhere.Muslims are doing tawaf of Ka'bah constantly, yet noone noticed Kab'ah move :?
Also if muslims saw a man do this they'd think he was the devil or something and wouldn't bow down to him they'd kill him
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What you believe to be unlikely doesn't really matter, you not believing will not change the facts. Just as me not believing that Islam is the true way will not change your view.

Sorry brother, but facts are facts. Sikhism is the True way for all of mankind. Islam is the true way for all of the Muslims.

Mohsin said:
Bro sorry if i offended you. I didn't intend to come accross in such a way. I have great respect for your open-mindedness and respect you show in your posts

Yes i'm aware of the moon but there are narrations of people from other places seeing the splitting of the moon.

And even if i was to agree with you that Guru nanek was only talking to a few muslims who thought that, why did he make it out as if all muslims believe this.
Also, i doubt any muslims would have honestly thought God lives in the Ka'bah. Its self-contradicting illogical and goes agianst God's attributes. if the stroy relating to Guru Nanek is true, then the only reason the muslims would have told him to move his feet away is out of respect for the Ka'bah, since Abraham PBUH and his son Ismail PBUH built it together for the worship of God and God purified the land around it. So it doesn't give Guru Nanek any reason to wrongly perceive Muslims as believing God lives in there
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You said it there. The Kabba was built for the worship of God and the land was purified by God. Hence why Muslims pray in that direction.

Why do Muslims pray to the direction of the kaba? Why not pray in any other direction?

You need to understand that during those times (500 years), times were not as bad as today. People were corrupt and extensively ritualistic. I know alot of Muslims who believe that Allah resides in the kaba and that you should worship the kaba.

But you and I know they are misguided.

Its good to know that you are one of few muslims who doesn't believe that.

But, I also know why you are in doubt, its not your fault, its what you are taught. The line of messengers from God for the Muslims ended with Mohammed (may end with the second coming of Jesus).

That's good, you have firm belief. But that does not give you the right to call the prophets of other followers false or wrong.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji was no ordinary man, he did not recieve a message from an angel, but had a direct constant contact with Waheguru/Allah.

I know alot od Muslims who believe in Guru Nanak Dev Ji, but call him a phir and alot of hindus aswell. No other prophet in history has had this kind of following from different followers of faiths.

Waheguru.

Of course you may disagree, but this is the Sikh belief and I don't believe we have to provide evidence to you or anybody for that matter.

Please show some respect.

Again, I say, if you have questions, then ask them and also respect the answers.

"..
Donning blue attire then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.
He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress.
Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrms (hajis) had gathered.
When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,
the qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.
Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.
Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca seemed to be revolving.
All got surprised and they all bowed.
.."

The main purpose of the Visit was to show people that God did not exist in the direction of the kaba.

But you don't believe in this and that's fine and understandable.

Take care and peace.
 
Sorry if i haven't been asking in a respectful manner, i been trying. Apologies

Sikhism is the True way for all of mankind. Islam is the true way for all of the Muslims
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Surely if Sikhism is for all mankind then it is for muslims too :?

You said it there. The Kabba was built for the worship of God and the land was purified by God. Hence why Muslims pray in that direction
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See you have a common misconception. Muslims have 3 types of prayers. Theres the formal prayer where we prostrate etc 5 times a day. Now that is a command from God to pray 5 times a day, and since most likely most muslims will be praying he has ordained that wer have a common direction to pray in, it is a Kiblah- a direction. Even if somehow God forbid it was blown up or something, we would still be praying in that direction. People in mecca in the msoque around Kabah sometimes pray on the top floor where it is above Kabah, so they aren't even looking at it, but they are praying in that direction for unity since everyone else also is and simply because God has ordered nus to do it. If God was to order us to do otherwise we would pray in another direction. In fact Muslims at the beginning used to pray to Musjid Al Aqsa in Jerusalem, all of them, as it was a direction for that time and for purposes of unity they all had a common direction to face. It later got abbrogated anmd now they all face Mecca

Now we have two other forms of worship that we havent been commanded to do by God at all. And nowhere does it say for them that you have to face Kabah. These two other forms of worship are Dua and Dhikr. In ours Duas we just pray directly to God in our own language raising our hands up. In Dhikr of Allah we just praise God continuously. Now surely if Kabah was the residing place of God we would also have to face Kabah for that. But since its not obligatory to do these prayers, its unlilely others will be doing them same time as you so unity doesn't exist so no need to pray in that direction

Now back to your point about Guru Nanek. No man in his right mind would have said God lives in kabah. Only children at a youbng age believe that. Even muslims with the lowest IQs today will know God doesn't physically live there. Now what i think happened was the Arabs got offended by Nanak for pointing his feet towards the Kabah. In arab culture even today its offensive and disrespectful to point your feet at someone. And since we consider the Kabah to be holy its disliked to point our feet at it.
Now how about the SGGS. You put that at a high place don't you. Why don't you put it on the floor? Does God reside there? Of course not, but yet you still treat it with respect and have it at a high place
 
See you have a common misconception. Muslims have 3 types of prayers. Theres the formal prayer where we prostrate etc 5 times a day. Now that is a command from God to pray 5 times a day, and since most likely most muslims will be praying he has ordained that wer have a common direction to pray in, it is a Kiblah- a direction. Even if somehow God forbid it was blown up or something, we would still be praying in that direction. People in mecca in the msoque around Kabah sometimes pray on the top floor where it is above Kabah, so they aren't even looking at it, but they are praying in that direction for unity since everyone else also is and simply because God has ordered nus to do it. If God was to order us to do otherwise we would pray in another direction. In fact Muslims at the beginning used to pray to Musjid Al Aqsa in Jerusalem, all of them, as it was a direction for that time and for purposes of unity they all had a common direction to face. It later got abbrogated anmd now they all face Mecca

Now we have two other forms of worship that we havent been commanded to do by God at all. And nowhere does it say for them that you have to face Kabah. These two other forms of worship are Dua and Dhikr. In ours Duas we just pray directly to God in our own language raising our hands up. In Dhikr of Allah we just praise God continuously. Now surely if Kabah was the residing place of God we would also have to face Kabah for that. But since its not obligatory to do these prayers, its unlilely others will be doing them same time as you so unity doesn't exist so no need to pray in that direction

Now back to your point about Guru Nanek. No man in his right mind would have said God lives in kabah. Only children at a youbng age believe that. Even muslims with the lowest IQs today will know God doesn't physically live there. Now what i think happened was the Arabs got offended by Nanak for pointing his feet towards the Kabah. In arab culture even today its offensive and disrespectful to point your feet at someone. And since we consider the Kabah to be holy its disliked to point our feet at it.
Now how about the SGGS. You put that at a high place don't you. Why don't you put it on the floor? Does God reside there? Of course not, but yet you still treat it with respect and have it at a high place
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Well you are answering your questions yourself.

As commanded by God, the Sikhs do not believe that you are required to pray in a specific direction to pray to God.

All prayers, as you shall agree with me, go to god, weather I pray standing up or sitting down. The Sikh constantly is praying, its practice, but it is possible, as it becomes second nature, like breathing.

Sikhs are commaned to pray 24hours a day, whilst walking, talking, sleeping..etc. This is achieveable.

I know muslims, hindus and Sikhs who do this.

The placement of Sri Guru Granth Sahib does not have anything to do with where God is. Hence this point you made is irelvant to this discussion.

Bottom line is Guru Nanak Dev Ji, did indeed go to Mecca, on his way back he met the calpha of Baghdad, where there is "Gurdwara Baba Nanak" in honour of Guru ji.

Guru Nanak's mission in Mecca was to demonstrate by example that the rituals they are stuck in, will not bring them closer to God. Of course they were offended, but whilst trying to put Guru Ji right, through Guru Ji they learnt the error of their ways.

Mecca did not rotate around. The writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji is written in a poetic style, they cannot be understood just by reading a english translation of them. I am sure you can understand that.

I feel that discussions like these take us away from the truth. Rather than eat at each other, we should be helping each other.

If you have anymore questions, let me know. I'll be back in about a week, out on business.


Can I ask, are you a Shia Muslim or Sunni?
 
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I'm sunni but i don't know the relevance of that question

Look it doesn't matter what sikhism believes its besides the point. muslims too are encouraged to dhikr of the tongue coinstantly wherever they walk to and stuff. We have a prayer taught to us by Prophet Muhammed PBUh for virtually every act. But you guys were questioning why is it that we pray in a cxertain direction and i answeredf you saying it is a commandment of god to pray our formal prayers in that direction, but other than these prayers we can pray wherever whenever we want.
 
Mohsin said:
But you guys were questioning why is it that we pray in a cxertain direction and i answeredf you saying it is a commandment of god to pray our formal prayers in that direction, but other than these prayers we can pray wherever whenever we want.
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Is there a quote in the Kuran that states this? If so can you post a link.
 
"We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is God unmindful of what they do." (2:144)
 
Yes there are several, but what has that got to do with anything. That's not what we're discussing here

I'm sunni but i don't know the relevance of that question

Look it doesn't matter what sikhism believes its besides the point. muslims too are encouraged to dhikr of the tongue coinstantly wherever they walk to and stuff. We have a prayer taught to us by Prophet Muhammed PBUh for virtually every act. But you guys were questioning why is it that we pray in a cxertain direction and i answeredf you saying it is a commandment of god to pray our formal prayers in that direction, but other than these prayers we can pray wherever whenever we want.
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Thank you Moshin, like it doesn't matter to you what the Sikhs believe, the same way Islam and its ways are irrelevant to us.

Its quite funny how you guys start up a thread on Sikhism and then call Sikh beliefs irrelevant.

So, Moshin, what are we discussing?
 
Mohsin said:
Yes there are several, but what has that got to do with anything. That's not what we're discussing here
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What else are we discussing? You're saying Allah is requesting that you all pray in the direction of Makkah. If you can't back it up then i'd say it's all concocted, hence why Guru Nanak Ji went to Makkah to enlighten the ignorant. :)
 

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