The Marriage Thread

[aadil77]

what good old days :skeleton: men and women were only allowed to see one another after their nikah/walimah? women had to live with her in laws all her life, put up biatchy co-wives without the intervention of her husband :raging:
forced marriage statistics were no doubt at their highest. not to mention domestic violence, and the only advice she can get it " your husband is stubborn, be patient and your reward is with Allah." im telling you, she gets beaten up like an animal, openly be given that advice, despite the fact that islamically, domestic violence is a no-no.
come across a sister who is unfortunate to have grown up in a society like this, and you just have to listen to her say a word or two, to know how "conditioned" she is to it. my god, its tragic imsad

women had absolutely zero freedom and rights-not even her god given ones. perhaps even men to an extent weren't given their full rights as they were/are forced into marriage as well.

lol maybe in places like pakistan where too much culture is involved, but not everywhere else

 

[aadil77]

In secular democracies such as Canada, a wife is NOT supposed to prepare food for his husband and family. She has the right to abort the leech-like fetus in her womb that she does not want. She has the right to be nude or be covered. What more rights do you want? She has the right and opportunities to pursue any career: scientist, medical doctor, physicist, astronomer, lawyer, house-wife. She is truly liberated unlike in Islam.

Lol you call those 'right's? those aren't rights

If you have issues with the laws of Allah you've got a serious problem on your hands

 

[Muslim Woman]

..She has the right to abort the leech-like fetus ... She has the right to be nude

lol , you believe these are rights ? Naked / half naked woman , moms who killed their children in wombs , they won't get any puishment in Canada , but what about the life hereafter ?

Do u really believe there are good deeds and Allah will be pleased with them ??

 

[aadil77]

you have failed to provide evidence for your claims, just "maybe they were raising ulaamaa." ya right. Their father's were not raising Ulama, only mothers were, eh. Last time I checked in history, fathers have been responsible for instilling in boys the "manly" qualities through out any culture, be they Kings of Rome or Tzars of Russia.

No Allah instilled qualities unique to men and qualities unique to women. Can you give birth to a child? Is that a right taken away from you by islam?


Why is not jihad obligatory for females?

Because Allah said so, do you have a problem with that? And you'd better watch your mouth, no one can question Allahs will.

Does it say so in Quran that jihad is not obligatory on females?

It is stated in the quran and sunnah that jihad is obligatory on men, so if you use your brain a little that means its not obligatory on women. There may be hadiths and verses from the quran saying explicitly that its isnt fardh on women but I'm not aware of them

Quran does not say that pursuing careers for females is obligatory as well. Yet you chose the relatively easier job (lets say becoming a scientist) as allowed for females but discarded participation in Jihad (which is more harder and requires guts) to males. Pardon me the commentary of scholars from which they deduce that females are forbidden to participate in Jihad. Lets just talk about Quran as we understand it from the translation.

I am sure if I apply your definition of chauvinism to Umer (ra) then he certainly appears to be so! He finds it necessary for women to draw veil on themselves but does not feel that men should rather do that?! If that is not chauvinism, as you define it, then I do not know what it is.

Was this a law of umer (ra) or a law of Allah? Be careful matey

But of course, Umar (ra) was far above what you label as the disgusting chauvinism of the men of past and present (mine specially).

Packaging and sugar-coating Islam as the ultimate bastion of female rights would not benefit much specially when females can and do enjoy much more freedom in a secular system where there is no restriction of hijab, nor intermingling with opposite sexes.

If you prefer a system of sin and kufr over the laws of Allah, then you have serious issues to sort out. Rejecting Allahs command and prefering man made law leads to kufr itself. It seems you like to intermingle with the opposite sex and see women uncovered, otherwise you would have mentioned more liberties the kufr system gives to women such as prostitution

Right now you sound like a complete puppet of kuffars, crying about the same 'rights' of women not being able to go around naked in muslim countries and sucking up to the kufr system because it gives women these 'rights'

Sort yourself out mate, your loyalty lies with Allah, islam and muslims not kuffar who will sooner or later screw you over when the time comes

 

[Cabdullahi]

Mad_science 'Ittaqillah ya akhi

 

[Alpha Dude]

I think you've misunderstood the brother. He's playing devil's advocate. He's actually more anti-feminist than you guys assume.

Of course I am playing a devil's advocate here but only because I do not see your hoop-laa of female rights in "Islam" any different from what a post-modern feminist would put into the interpretation of Quran. Irshad Manji, anyone?

The gist of his argument is that many sisters nowadays say things like 'Islam gives us rights' etc which comes across as though they reinterpret Islam to fit this image of there being plenty of 'freedoms' for women. He's challenging the chanting of such slogans by saying, effectively, that women can get more rights in modern secular societies than what Islam provides.

He's not wrong in saying that. Women do get more rights than what Islam gives. They get more rights to behave as they like, for dunya purposes. They can walk around in ****ty clothing all they want, they can lead a country full of men and many such other things which Islam forbids them from doing (or in other words: does not give them the right to).

However, the argument here is needlessly being dragged on. It's going around in circles and diverging off into tangents. It is of no benefit. It's also off-topic.

 

[aadil77]

This is a 'right' by definition

Rights are variously construed as legal, social, or moral freedoms to act or refrain from acting, or entitlements to be acted upon or not acted upon

To me the examples the brother quoted are not rights, by islam, they're more like freedom to immoral acts

 

[Insaanah]

everything is clear. Truth demolishes falsehood. Falsehood is that all cultures/societies repress women while Islam liberates them.

In secular democracies such as Canada, a wife is NOT supposed to prepare food for his husband and family. She has the right to abort the leech-like fetus in her womb that she does not want. She has the right to be nude or be covered. What more rights do you want? She has the right and opportunities to pursue any career: scientist, medical doctor, physicist, astronomer, lawyer, house-wife. She is truly liberated unlike in Islam.

Brother,

Please watch what you are saying.

Imams Maalik, Shaafi'ee and Abu Hanifa and Imam an-Nawawi (may Allah be pleased with them all) are all of the opinion that it is not obligatory for a wife to serve her husband. According to the Hanafis the husband is not only responsible for the maintenance of the wife, but is also responsible for the cooking, cleaning and general maintenance of the house by either hiring a servant, doing the work himself or by being lucky enough to have a wife who is willing to do it out of her own free will. If the wife refuses to help out in thses areas, she is not to be held responsible, and she cannot be reprimanded.
Source: The Fiqh of Family, Marriage and Divorce by Jamal Zarabozo, published by the American Open University, 1997

With regards to aborting an unwanted foetus, Muslim women have been given the biggest right of all, the right to use their brains before indulging in sexual activity, a right which most women in the west either do not use or seem to have been deprived of by the society they live in.

EDIT: If you are playing devil's advocate, I don't recall that ever being a methiod used by Rasoolullah :saws: or the sahaabah or our pious predecessors (may Allah be pleased with them) to explain Islam, give da'wah or to point out the wrongs in society, as that does nothing but cause misunderstandings, as illustrated in the posts after yours.

You could have made your points straightforwardly without playing the devil's advocate, and thus could have avoided all the misunderstanding and offence that has been caused.

 

[Alpha Dude]

To me the examples the brother quoted are not rights, by islam, they're more like freedom to immoral acts

That is his point. Non muslim secular societies give women freedom to act immorally, so by extension, they have more 'rights' in this day and age than muslim women are afforded by Islam.

Note: He's not promoting these freedoms. The point that started this argument between him and the sister was his challenging the sister on saying stuff like how much more rights women get in Islam, almost to suggest that sisters tend to look at Islam through a feministic 'what my rights are' interpretation.

 

[Alpha Dude]

With regards to aborting an unwanted foetus, Muslim women have been given the biggest right of all, the right to use their brains before indulging in sexual activity, a right which most women in the west either do not use or seem to have been deprived of by the society they live in.

Actually sister, muslim women are not allowed to refuse their husbands (unless they have a valid reason).

 

[Insaanah]

Actually sister, muslim women are not allowed to refuse their husbands (unless they have a valid reason).

I made no mention of, neither am I suggesting they should refuse their husbands. I was talking about the unwanted foetus which the brother mentioned. If a couple do not want children from a particular union, the husband and the wife can both use their brains before engaging in sexual activity, and employ permissible means to try to avoid it.

 

[Muslim Woman]

I think you've misunderstood the brother. He's playing devil's advocate. He's actually more anti-feminist than you guys assume.

.

It's hard to understand this from his specific post. To my knowledge , if anyone mock of Allah's laws or His any Prophet pbut , it brings him/her out of Islam . So , s/he should offer repentenance and declare the Shahada.

And Allah knows Best.

 

[Alpha Dude]

I made no mention of, neither am I suggesting they should refuse their husbands. I was talking about the unwanted foetus which the brother mentioned. If a couple do not want children from a particular union, the husband and the wife can both use their brains before engaging in sexual activity, and employ permissible means to try to avoid it.

JazakAllah Khayr.

It's hard to understand this from his specific post. To my knowledge , if anyone mock of Allah's laws or His any Prophet pbut , it brings him/her out of Islam . So , s/he should offer repentenance and declare the Shahada.

And Allah knows Best.

Wa alaykum salam,

I think we're getting carried away here. Let's not make judgements like these. It's one thing to miscomprehend something and something else entirely to allude to someone's iman being nullified. I think you'd be hardpressed to find any post where he has blatantly mocked Allah's laws in this thread.

Umm Sufyan's original post:

women had absolutely zero freedom and rights-not even her god given ones. perhaps even men to an extent weren't given their full rights as they were/are forced into marriage as well.

its very bizarre, last i heard there was a strong exhortation towards kind treatment of women. last i checked, Islam was/is the only religion and way of life that gives women their true rights, unlike women in other religions and cultures where she is the one working her a$$ off to feed her husband and kids (not to mention, in some cases his family as well), or is subjugated by a society that is overally obsessed the awrah of people. not only that she has no rights as wife.

This was mad_scientist's response which kicked it all off:

Islam provided more rights to women in 7th century in comparison to other religions and cultures. In today's society, Secular democracies such as Canada provide more rights to women than Islam does or will ever do unless you erase ahadeeth and change Quran.

come again? have i missed something?

everything is clear. Truth demolishes falsehood. Falsehood is that all cultures/societies repress women while Islam liberates them.

You said: its very bizarre, last i heard there was a strong exhortation towards kind treatment of women. last i checked, Islam was/is the only religion and way of life that gives women their true rights, unlike women in other religions and cultures where she is the one working her a$$ off to feed her husband and kids (not to mention, in some cases his family as well), or is subjugated by a society that is overally obsessed the awrah of people. not only that she has no rights as wife

In secular democracies such as Canada, a wife is NOT supposed to prepare food for his husband and family. She has the right to abort the leech-like fetus in her womb that she does not want. She has the right to be nude or be covered. What more rights do you want? She has the right and opportunities to pursue any career: scientist, medical doctor, physicist, astronomer, lawyer, house-wife. She is truly liberated unlike in Islam.

I think this post is needlessly argumentative and pointless. I don't fully agree with it. However, we have to be fair, He's not arguing against Islam in this case, rather against women who misinterpret the quran and hadith to fit their own feministic agenda. I don't believe Umm_Sufyan does that, therefore I believe mad_scientist's reply here was directed to the wrong audience. The rest of his posts are just trying to elaborate on his point.

If Muslim women truly have the right to pursue careers, why do not we hear about Muslim female scientists from the "golden era of Islam?"

If a Muslim woman truly has the right to pursue careers, why do not we hear of female commandos leading the army during the Rightly Guided Caliphs? After all, they can be as strong as males.

If she is truly free to choose her own destiny in Islam, why do we only hear about female religious scholars but no secular scholars (scientists, mathematicians etc) in past history of Islam?

If she is truly free to choose, why does Quran make husband the protector of "wife?" After all if she is independent and liberated, she needs NO ONE's protection as she can look after her own self?

you have failed to provide evidence for your claims, just "maybe they were raising ulaamaa." ya right. Their father's were not raising Ulama, only mothers were, eh. Last time I checked in history, fathers have been responsible for instilling in boys the "manly" qualities through out any culture, be they Kings of Rome or Tzars of Russia.

Of course I am playing a devil's advocate here but only because I do not see your hoop-laa of female rights in "Islam" any different from what a post-modern feminist would put into the interpretation of Quran. Irshad Manji, anyone?

Why is not jihad obligatory for females? Does it say so in Quran that jihad is not obligatory on females? Quran does not say that pursuing careers for females is obligatory as well. Yet you chose the relatively easier job (lets say becoming a scientist) as allowed for females but discarded participation in Jihad (which is more harder and requires guts) to males. Pardon me the commentary of scholars from which they deduce that females are forbidden to participate in Jihad. Lets just talk about Quran as we understand it from the translation.

I am sure if I apply your definition of chauvinism to Umer (ra) then he certainly appears to be so! He finds it necessary for women to draw veil on themselves but does not feel that men should rather do that?! If that is not chauvinism, as you define it, then I do not know what it is.

But of course, Umar (ra) was far above what you label as the disgusting chauvinism of the men of past and present (mine specially).

Packaging and sugar-coating Islam as the ultimate bastion of female rights would not benefit much specially when females can and do enjoy much more freedom in a secular system where there is no restriction of hijab, nor intermingling with opposite sexes.

I don't agree with all the brother says, but in all fairness, he has not mocked Islam if you carefully study what he's written.

Anyway, this thread has really veered off course.

However, the argument here is needlessly being dragged on. It's going around in circles and diverging off into tangents. It is of no benefit. It's also off-topic.

 

[Cabdullahi]

Islam gives us the right to do things that will benefit us and those around us ......why call "the gouging out of poor babies" , " dressing scantly " and so on, rights?........ these are not rights this is destruction

 

[★ηαѕιнα★]

I always say Allah swt is the Creator. Who knows best about what his creations are like and what they need to live a decent life than Him swt? Like a computerscientist. A computerscientist knows exactly what feedings a PC needs to work properly. Why? Because he knows PCs through and through cos he built it and knows what it needs to have the maximum capacity. The PC (if it could come alive) can make up modifcations by itself, how it suits him, but can cause the maximum capacity to go down slowing up datatraffic and letting in computerviruses resulting into a computercrash. And thats were we are headed with making up our own rules and disobeyed the Creator. Our own worldcrash (literally!). We need to read and act by the usersmanual again (Quran). So Allah swt knows us better than we know ourselves! You guys think about that for a minute. Some deep stuff going on here LOL

 

[Cabdullahi]

^ mashaAllah very good computer knowledge sister!! did you bump heads with a computer geek?

 

[★ηαѕιнα★]

^ mashaAllah very good computer knowledge sister!! did you bump heads with a computer geek?

Ill let you in on a secret bro: I MADE IT UP!;D
Seriously I needed something to make a comparison, chose computers and used some average stuff I knew haha LOL Maybe I should swith careers

 

[aadil77]

This should be called 'The Mirage Thread' for all the bruvvers dreaming

 

[Banu_Hashim]

Shari'ah = Islam
Islam = Shari'ah

Everything in shariah comes down to one thing; to preserve society. Without islamic guidlines from Allaah (swt) we are lost. "By time, indeed mankind is in loss" (Surah Asr).

ANYWHO... are we done discussing marriage? imsad Done this thread have any purpose anymore?

 

[Asiyah3]

Not meant to ruin the mood guys But,
I think there's alot of idle chat going on (check the pages a bit and you'll notice the same). Don't get me wrong this thread is great but we need some subjects/materials to discuss.