Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Follower]

greycode - 'Advice : Ask yourself the same question before directing it to others.'
zaphran - 'The arabic is preety clear'

It is pretty clear in the Holy Bible no matter the translation and yes the Holy Spirit helps people through some of the tough verses. If a troublesome section comes up a prayer will lead to an explaination.

A good way to decide if the verse should be taken literally or not in the Holy Bible:

If a verse has to do with this world and gaining any kind of power, you must take it figuratively. There is more meaning then just what is said at face value.

Jesus' teachings are not about gaining power and influence in this world.

 

[Hugo]

The corruption is mentioned by the Qur'an and then proclaimed by the Muslims.

I can point out some of the corruption but my intention for pointing them out will not be to offend christian, though I doubt that I will be able to avoid that.

Just a point - one can only pick out corruptions with certainty if one has the original and presumably you do not. There are no originals as far as we know of any Bible book just as there are no originals of the Qu'ran preserved from the time of the prophet. We therefore have to work with what we have as As-Suyuti (Itquan, part 3 , page 720) famously remarked "I have acquired of it (the Qu'ran) what is available"

Why would Muslims want to 'proclaim' these so called corruptions, is the message of Islam so weak that it can only be supported by denigrating other scriptures?

 

[Follower]

I have asked this before but unsure of the answer.

Did Mohammad have any eyewitnesses as to what Gabriel said? Did anyone else hear the revelations?

Mulims have told me that witnesses heard Mohammad humming- but is there anything outside of Mohammad's being that he would not have control over that was a witness to the revelations?

With Paul there were the travelers accompanying Paul- the bright light and sound that they heard, then separate from the group there was Ananias.

 

[GreyKode]

is the message of Islam so weak that it can only be supported by denigrating other scriptures?

Islam's main message is to establish the true monotheism, and to destroy false ideas like the belief that Jesus(pbuh) is God ,Son of God, trinity, etc.
This is the proclaimed message of Islam.
Now you don't want to accept it its your choice, but that's the message PURE MONOTHEISM and its a powerful one, and most appealing to the mind and heart.
Illogical ideas like the trinity and polytheism fall apart.

 

[GreyKode]

With Paul there were the travelers accompanying Paul- the bright light and sound that they heard, then separate from the group there was Ananias.[/QUOTE]

I thought these were all inspirations.

Follower, since you can talk to the Holy spirit, can you please record for us what it sounds like?
Or at least pray to the holy spirit to talk to me.

 

[Hugo]

Islam's main message is to establish the true monotheism, and to destroy false ideas like the belief that Jesus(pbuh) is God ,Son of God, trinity, etc.
This is the proclaimed message of Islam.
Now you don't want to accept it its your choice, but that's the message PURE MONOTHEISM and its a powerful one, and most appealing to the mind and heart.
Illogical ideas like the trinity and polytheism fall apart.

Let us be clear here - Christianity is not polytheistic, it believes in one God in unity just as you do and this is the message Christians proclaim.

Does everything have to be logical for you to believe, do you think everything in Islam is perfectly logical?

 

[Hugo]

With Paul there were the travelers accompanying Paul- the bright light and sound that they heard, then separate from the group there was Ananias.

I thought these were all inspirations. Follower, since you can talk to the Holy spirit, can you please record for us what it sounds like? Or at least pray to the holy spirit to talk to me.[/QUOTE]

If we are going to descend into non-arguments like this, tell us what Gabriel sounded like when he spoke to Prophet Mohammed, or consider your prayers, where do they go, who hears them - tell us what it sound like to God?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace ;

... do you think everything in Islam is perfectly logical?

If not everything - surely the main things ( important for our Salvation) are very logical
Such as No one is equal to God , God can not die etc.

If God is dead , how His creations can survive ? Who will take care of them ? If God can't protect Himself from His slaves , then how He can save us ??

Islam makes it very clear that God is free of all weaknesses . He does not need anyone's help to face any threat -there is no threat all for Him . No one has power to kill or torture Him as He is immortal & has power over all things .

 

[Hugo]

Salaam/Peace ; If not everything - surely the main things ( important for our Salvation) are very logical
Such as No one is equal to God , God can not die etc.

If God is dead , how His creations can survive ? Who will take care of them ? If God can't protect Himself from His slaves , then how He can save us ??

Islam makes it very clear that God is free of all weaknesses . He does not need anyone's help to face any threat -there is no threat all for Him . No one has power to kill or torture Him as He is immortal & has power over all things .

I agree almost everything you say and definitely that we must know what the basic things are that we believe and it may be that can share our faith more easily. But not everything is logical. For example, we have to start by believing God exists and no logic can bring everyone there although once you are there one might argue that God has certain attributes.

But I was interested to see you mention salvation because it could be argued that since God is Holy and absolutely so then it is illogical for him to forgive our sins and have mercy on us. Now I know how this is dealt with logically in Christianity, but how is it dealt with logically in Islam?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace ;

...since God is Holy and absolutely so then it is illogical for him to forgive our sins

Can u explain this ? Why it is illogical for Him to forgive us ? How it is contradictory with His being holy ??

 

[Hugo]

Salaam/Peace ; Can u explain this ? Why it is illogical for Him to forgive us ? How it is contradictory with His being holy ??

The logical or correct response to sin is to punish it, it cannot be just forgotten or ignored because God would not be holy and just if he forgave some people and not others, he would be acting with partiality and that itself could not be a holy and righteous response. Or if God just acted on a whim and saved some but not others the same applies he cannot then be holy but act unjustly.

We know God will punish sinners and both the Bible and Qu'ran make this very clear - with particular emphasis in the Qu'ran. So how do we get round this impasse, how is God's holiness satisfied without making any compromises to his perfect justice?

Now it is possible I suppose to allow that God can do anything including being unjust but then we have no sure hope of salvation from such a God because there is no way to gain his favour because he acts it seems to me without reason or defined character - but I believe in a holy and Just God.

 

[Zafran]

greycode - 'Advice : Ask yourself the same question before directing it to others.'
zaphran - 'The arabic is preety clear'

It is pretty clear in the Holy Bible no matter the translation and yes the Holy Spirit helps people through some of the tough verses. If a troublesome section comes up a prayer will lead to an explaination.

A good way to decide if the verse should be taken literally or not in the Holy Bible:

If a verse has to do with this world and gaining any kind of power, you must take it figuratively. There is more meaning then just what is said at face value.

Jesus' teachings are not about gaining power and influence in this world.

Thats your interpretation again - what about the covering of the womens head?

 

[Zafran]

I have asked this before but unsure of the answer.

Did Mohammad have any eyewitnesses as to what Gabriel said? Did anyone else hear the revelations?

Mulims have told me that witnesses heard Mohammad humming- but is there anything outside of Mohammad's being that he would not have control over that was a witness to the revelations?

With Paul there were the travelers accompanying Paul- the bright light and sound that they heard, then separate from the group there was Ananias.

this is hypocricy what about Moses pbuh and the Angel he saw?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

... God will punish sinners and both the Bible and Qu'ran make this very clear - .

God says in holy Quran that if one commits shirk/blasphemy & dies without repentance , then only punishment is eternal fire. Shirk is the most major sin & won't be forgiven unless the sinners asks for forgiveness till death approaches.

In other cases , sinners may be in fire for few days/ months / years ; later will come out of fire .

Eternal fire is only for those who worshipped other dieties .

Sounds logical

 

[Zafran]

The logical or correct response to sin is to punish it, it cannot be just forgotten or ignored because God would not be holy and just if he forgave some people and not others, he would be acting with partiality and that itself could not be a holy and righteous response. Or if God just acted on a whim and saved some but not others the same applies he cannot then be holy but act unjustly.

We know God will punish sinners and both the Bible and Qu'ran make this very clear - with particular emphasis in the Qu'ran. So how do we get round this impasse, how is God's holiness satisfied without making any compromises to his perfect justice?

Now it is possible I suppose to allow that God can do anything including being unjust but then we have no sure hope of salvation from such a God because there is no way to gain his favour because he acts it seems to me without reason or defined character - but I believe in a holy and Just God.

God will show mercy on this who strive and show mercy on other people - also God knows best as always so Allah swt knows exactly who should be forgiven and who shouldnt - who should be shown mercy and who should not be shown mercy - thats the great thing about Allah swt as God is the best of Judgers.

Furthermore God is unlike human beings - humans are clearly limited - they can never realy grasp the idea of true Justice.

so in reality there is no problem - just humans trying to limit God in there own limited views - a historical human problem

Furthermore as your christain the whole idea of an innocent man dying for people seems to be unjust and unholy - that is if we put our own limited human judgement on it.

 

[Hugo]

Thats your interpretation again - what about the covering of the womens head?

I am not sure what you might imply by saying 'that's your interpretation..' as it cannot be an argument of refutation - is there only one interpretation possible? Is something necessarily wrong with my interpretation or yours, is there any way to know that an interpretation is without fault?

Often we agree on an interpretation but that does not of itself validate it does it? I think perhaps we all need to take note of what Nietzsche said "There are no facts, only interpretations" as well as the practical remarks made by White "Prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without having to get the facts."

 

[aamirsaab]

The logical or correct response to sin is to punish it, it cannot be just forgotten or ignored because God would not be holy and just if he forgave some people and not others, he would be acting with partiality and that itself could not be a holy and righteous response. Or if God just acted on a whim and saved some but not others the same applies he cannot then be holy but act unjustly.

Ok let me give you an example:
Let's say we have a mother and she has two kids.
Kid 1 drops a plate and says sorry. Mum would punish him but he said sorry, so was exempt from the punishment.
Kid 2 drops the plate and doesn't say sorry. Mum punishes him for braking the plate.

That's basically how it works in Islam; if you sin but repent, then God willing you will be forgiven. If you sin and don't repent, expect a punishment.

You may not actually know this but in Islam, but this is how the carrot and stick approach works:

Carrot
Thinking a good action = 1 good deed
Performing a good action = 10 good deeds

Stick
Thinking a bad action = 0 bad deed
Performing a bad action = 1 bad deed

I have put this in because it is important for you to understand how easy it is, theoreticall speaking, to obtain salvation under Islam. Now with you knowing this, you cannot dare call Allah Unjust.

 

[Zafran]

I am not sure what you might imply by saying 'that's your interpretation..' as it cannot be an argument of refutation - is there only one interpretation possible? Is something necessarily wrong with my interpretation or yours, is there any way to know that an interpretation is without fault?

Often we agree on an interpretation but that does not of itself validate it does it? I think perhaps we all need to take note of what Nietzsche said "There are no facts, only interpretations" as well as the practical remarks made by White "Prejudice is a great time saver. You can form opinions without having to get the facts."

i disagree with the Nietzcheand white quote furthermore that was to follower and we were talking about how we distinquish from methophorical and literal interpreatations - he gave his "view" that anything that is worldly should be taken metaphorically - so i brought up the head covering. Nothing to do with refuatation whats so ever.

 

[Hugo]

God will show mercy on this who strive and show mercy on other people - also God knows best as always so Allah swt knows exactly who should be forgiven and who shouldnt - who should be shown mercy and who should not be shown mercy - thats the great thing about Allah swt as God is the best of Judgers.

Furthermore God is unlike human beings - humans are clearly limited - they can never realy grasp the idea of true Justice.

so in reality there is no problem - just humans trying to limit God in there own limited views - a historical human problem

Furthermore as your christain the whole idea of an innocent man dying for people seems to be unjust and unholy - that is if we put our own limited human judgement on it.

I see your view that God has some kind of balance and he kind of weighs up our actions. There is a kind of logic to that and therefore logically it does not matter whether you are Muslim, Christians or whatever because we can all spend a life doing good works. But I ask two things:

1. God decides in some way because he has perfect knowledge but how? My problem, worry if you like is that all this means I can here and now have no certainty of mercy because I cannot know the mind of God, I cannot as it were work it out for myself.

2. Forgive, me but I cannot see how a Holy God crosses out the sin, how he weighs it all up and tick a good against a bad. Let me explain, suppose I murder someone, now according to you I have to do some good to balance that out but what can I do. it cannot be put right no matter what I do? Secondly, suppose I commit a burglary, get caught and agree to give the stolen goods back - will the judge then let me off?

 

[Zafran]

I see your view that God has some kind of balance and he kind of weighs up our actions. There is a kind of logic to that and therefore logically it does not matter whether you are Muslim, Christians or whatever because we can all spend a life doing good works. But I ask two things:

1. God decides in some way because he has perfect knowledge but how? My problem, worry if you like is that all this means I can here and now have no certainty of mercy because I cannot know the mind of God, I cannot as it were work it out for myself.

2. Forgive, me but I cannot see how a Holy God crosses out the sin, how he weighs it all up and tick a good against a bad. Let me explain, suppose I murder someone, now according to you I have to do some good to balance that out but what can I do. it cannot be put right no matter what I do? Secondly, suppose I commit a burglary, get caught and agree to give the stolen goods back - will the judge then let me off?

Again when you say "logically" are you talking about your own limited mind and trying figure out how Allah swt the greatest of Judgers and the knower of all is going to judge - You ask how? how can you even understand when you are limited??

Furthermore so you dont believe that man has to do Good to wipe his bad deeds out( totaly beacsue God is Genarous and all merciful, which is a good thing dont you agree?) - so what about an innocent man dying on a cross for everybodies sin - including the burglers and the murderers? Instead you like that idea that an innocent man sheds his blood for everyones sin - If we use your "logic" does that sound logically at all? will the judge let the thief and killer off just beacsue the innocent mans blood has wiped out the sins???


This is only if we apply our limited views on the greatest of Judgers which humans are not.