Things in Islam I am curious about...

I find it hard to talk with you. I rarely know how to best receive your comments. I am not sure whether you are being inquisitive, facetious, sarcastic, argumentative, or if you really are that completely in the dark. I have trouble believing that you are truly ignorant of these things as you say that at one time you were in seminary preparing for the priesthood. Though, based on what you express as a lack of understanding, perhaps this was just the very brief sortie of a young man not yet mature in his own thinking; if so, that would explain a lot of things in your posts.

By "church" I mean all the people of God from all of human history who belong to him by virtue of their faith in Jesus Christ. I do not mean the Roman Catholic definition of just those who belong to the Catholic church. If you believe that the Church evolved over time then the term would apply to what ever group existed at that particular point of time in history.

I am sure you realize not all of the fellowship of original believers were devoured by lions. Many of then died from natural cause, but all are of coure dead today. In that sense I suppose the original church is gone, but that doesn't mean they were unable to pass on their faith to others. Did you know that the church actually grew in size during the time of the persecution? More people converted to become Christians than the Romans were able to feed to the lions or kill by all the other means they tried.


I'm sorry if I sounded sarcastic, no disrespect meant... I respect your opinion about me... well, thats your opinion and I won't contest that.

With regards to the "church" issue... Muslims call their fellowship as Ummah... this refers to the whole Muslim community around the world... one ummah only. (excluding all non-muslims or so called muslim sects)

The Roman Catholics' perspective of church is limited only to the Catholics... and their ecumenical comunities... I am aware there are non-catholic christian communities have a bigger perspective of the church.

The reason I asked what church is to determine the perspective from where it's coming from.

Anyway, I guess it's not that important, you have answered it anyway. Just disregard the issue.

May Allah guide us to achieve noble endeavours.
 
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Salaam/peace;



So, perhaps the two of you, even though you can't speak for all of Islam, could help me to understand how you see it.
If u want my view about Bible , then I think I wrote about this earlier ( or was it in another forum ? )



ok , let me explain one more time.


While reading Bible , I was horrified to read the allegations against the blessed Prophets (pbut).



I raised up respecting all Prophets (pbut ) ; so the nasty allegations against Lut & David ( pbut ) & allegation of blasphemy against Solomon (p) -----those were unacceptable to me & was not hard to believe that these are false allegations.

Also ,the free style killing in OT was shocking.


I don’t remember any verse there to show forgiveness to enemies if they want peace etc. Media always gave me impression that only Quran has verses on war & killing disbeliever.

So , it was a great shock to find out that OT has so many verses on war & killing with ‘ show no mercy ‘ .


U may say that double standard of the media became clear after reading those passages. But may be this is off topic here.

God’s fight with a Prophet & lost the war ----soooooooooooo absurd.



I think like that either some Jews included some stories to show others that how they are great or how they were right to kill Prophets as many of them were indeed sinners . Or some Christians did that to prove that only Jesus (p) was sinless.



Also as bro Yusuf N said , Quran is enough for us to believe that other holy books are corrupted.

There is verse like that , when the last Prophet (p) came , they ( I guess Jews , Christians ) became jealous.


They expected “ that Prophet “ will come from their own tribe ….not from Arabs---
descedants of Prophet Ismail (p).


If u want , InshaAllah I will try to find the verse.

I also read that the then Jews & Christians hided some verses where prediction of ‘ that Prophet ‘ & his name was mentioned .


It happened after the arrival of the Last Prophet (p) …. 570 AD + 40 yrs .

I read that in the Vatican city , Pope has a personal library …..Muslims are not allowed to visit that library .


He had very ancient copies of Bible those remain as secret from others even from Christians where the name Muhammed (p) is mentioned.
 
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Peace be upon those who follow guidance,

Hey Gene,

i found this interesting commentary this morning, i'll share parts of it with you:

The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible (1971) page 664:
It starts on page 644 in my copy.

The Gospel According To Mark by Lindsey P. Pherigo

Introduction

Relation to Mathew And Luke. Literary analysis of the agreements and differences among the first 3 gospels has established that Mark was the earliest of the 3 and was used independently by both Matthew and Luke as their major source of information about the life of Jesus…The fact that the 2 later gospels have incorporated practically all of it in their accounts indicates that they intended to replace Mark rather than simply to supplement it…
What you have highlighted in red is Ms. Pherigo's opinion regarding what the incorporation of Mark into Matthew and Luke indicate to her. It is not an opinion I have heard expressed before, even though this is a oft used and generally respected commentary. She may be right; it may be that Matthew and/or Luke felt that if he (they) wrote a Gospel that included Mark in it, plus his (their) own material, that Mark wouldn't be needed any longer. But, that is trying to guess the motives of someone that she herself did not know. Just like I am when I project that Matthew and Luke having read Mark's Gospel felt that it was too short, and that there was more to the story that needed to be told and so they did, using Mark as a starting point, but adding what else they gathered from their own knowledge, oral tradition, and any other sources they could find. That they hung their own gospels over the framework of Mark tells me that they didn't think Mark was wrong, just incomplete.


Date and Occasion. The tradition that Mark put together his gospel after the death of Peter on the one hand and the manner of its use by Matthew on the other limit the date of the writing to the period from AD 64 to ca 75…

[this was MOST interesting and revealing!]

During the whole period in which this gospel could have been written, Christianity was in transition from it’s original home in the Semitic culture of Palestinian Judaism to the Gentile culture of the Roman Empire. The older Christianity held tenaciously to the traditional Jewish customs (such as circumcision and the food laws), but the newer (Gentile) version abandoned these entirely. More significantly, the older Christianity understood Jesus mainly under the Jewish concept of the Messiah, whereas the newer found more meaning in him as a divine being, the Son of God, Lord and Savior. The older view clung to the Semitic concept of religion as obedience to God’s Will, whereas the newer openly abandoned this as hopeless by man’s own effort and espoused a religion which redeemed man from his slavery to sin by and act of God’s Grace( the Christ event).
This isn't something that you get out of Mark, but that is a picture that develops if you read the book of Acts in concert with Paul's letters. There are two camps within the early Christian Church. You've never heard me deny that. Both camps believe that Jesus was the Messiah and both camps profess faith in him as their crucified and risen Lord and Savior. We can't make them into polar opposites, they were all Christians. But some saw Christianity as a sect within Judaism (one of many streams) and felt that the emphasis needed to be on people becoming Jewish with all that entailed. Others, the group that historically won out just by the sheer mass of converts, believe that God was doing a new thing in Jesus Christ; there were ties to the old, but the Church was indeed a new branch being grafted in and it wasn't necessary to be Jewish to be Christian -- Peter, Paul, and John were both in this camp. I suspect James was in the other.

If you want to read an in-depth discussion of this I refer you to one of my classmates books: Hellenists and Hebrews: Reappraising Division within the Earliest Church, by Craid C. Hill, c. 1992, Augsburg Fortress Press: Minneapolis, MN.

so, i'm guessing sometime between "Q"[the source] and Mark! :happy:

i checked to see if this was written by Muslims, but the cover says:

“Seven years of planning and research, the most up-to-date archaeological information, and the latest technological developments have been used in preparing this one-volume commentary.

Seventy scholars-Protestant, Roman Catholic and Jewish-have contributed fresh, new interpretations of the ageless truths of the Bible.
The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible is designed for use by laypersons, ministers, librarians, college and seminary professors and students – anyone who enjoys studying the Bible.”


so...i guess not!

:w:
No, it's definitely Christian. And not some wacko job either. I do think it tends to be a little bit liberal. And a one-volume work is intended for lay usage, it isn't something that I use regularly. But I do refer to it sometimes, and in general (other than what I see as a liberal bias) I find it useful.
 
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salaam/peace;


Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons;

(as for) those who have lost their souls, they will not believe.

[6.20]


Tafsir Ibn Kathir



People of the Book Recognize the Prophet Just as They Recognize Their Own Children





http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=6&tid=15188


Allah says, the People of the Book know what you brought them, O Muhammad , as they know their own children. This is because they received good news from the previous Messengers and Prophets about the coming of Muhammad , his attributes, homeland, his migration, and the description of his Ummah.


Allah said next,




[الَّذِينَ خَسِرُواْ أَنفُسَهُم]

(Those who have lost (destroyed) themselves) and thus incurred the ultimate loss,




[فَهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ]

(will not believe.) in this clear matter. A matter about which the previous Prophets gave good news, and a matter extolled about in ancient and modern times.







Allah said next,


[وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَى عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِباً أَوْ كَذَّبَ بِـَايَـتِهِ]




(And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Ayat) meaning, there is no person more unjust than he who lies about Allah and claims that Allah has sent him, while Allah did not send him.






There is no person more unjust than he who denies Allah's proofs, signs and evidences,

[إِنَّهُ لاَ يُفْلِحُ الظَّـلِمُونَ]

(Verily, the wrongdoers shall never be successful.) Surely, both of these people will never acquire success, whoever falsely [claims that Allah sent him] and whoever refuses [Allah's Ayat].




[وَيَوْمَ نَحْشُرُهُمْ جَمِيعاً ثُمَّ نَقُولُ لِلَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُواْ أَيْنَ شُرَكَآؤُكُمُ الَّذِينَ كُنتُمْ تَزْعُمُونَ - ثُمَّ لَمْ تَكُنْ فِتْنَتُهُمْ إِلاَّ أَن قَالُواْ وَاللَّهِ رَبِّنَا مَا كُنَّا مُشْرِكِينَ - انظُرْ كَيْفَ كَذَبُواْ عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ وَضَلَّ عَنْهُمْ مَّا كَانُواْ يَفْتَرُونَ - وَمِنْهُمْ مَّن يَسْتَمِعُ إِلَيْكَ وَجَعَلْنَا عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ أَكِنَّةً أَن يَفْقَهُوهُ وَفِى ءَاذَانِهِمْ وَقْراً وَإِن يَرَوْاْ كُلَّ ءَايَةٍ لاَّ يُؤْمِنُواْ بِهَا حَتَّى إِذَا جَآءُوكَ يُجَـدِلُونَكَ يَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِنْ هَـذَآ إِلاَّ أَسَـطِيرُ الاٌّوَّلِينَ - وَهُمْ يَنْهَوْنَ عَنْهُ وَيَنْأَوْنَ عَنْهُ وَإِن يُهْلِكُونَ إِلاَّ أَنفُسَهُمْ وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ ]



(22. And on the Day when We shall gather them all together, We shall say to those who joined partners in worship (with Us):



"Where are your partners (false deities) whom you used to assert (as partners in worship with Allah)'')





(23. There will then be (left) no Fitnah for them but to say:




"By Allah, our Lord, we were not those who joined others (in worship with Allah).'')



(24. Look! How they lie against themselves! But the (lie) which they invented will disappear from them.)





(25. And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears;




if they see every one of the Ayat they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, those who disbelieve say:



"These are nothing but tales of the men of old.'')


(26. And they prevent others from him and they themselves keep away from him, and (by doing so) they destroy none but themselves, yet they perceive (it) not.)



[FONT=&quot]verses we all need for this life & the hereafter [/FONT]


Say: "What thing is the most great in witness?"


Say: "God is witness between me and you; this Quran has been revealed to me that I may therewith warn you and whomsoever it may reach.


Can you verily bear witness that besides God there are other gods?"


Say: "I bear no (such) witness!"

Say: "But in truth, He is the only One God.


And truly I am innocent of what you join in worship with Him."


(Holy Qur'an 6:19)
 
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I know that of course Muslims don't celebrate Christian holidays like Christmas. And my experience is that Muslims do celebrate secular holidays like New Years. But how about those national holidays that are not truly belong to a particular religion, but still carry religious overtones to them? I was thinking in particular of Thanksgiving.

Can/do Muslims in the USA celebrate Thanksgiving?

Surely the concept is one that a Muslim can accept -- giving thanks to God for all of his blessings in our life. Yet, on the one hand, the origins of it in the USA have to do with a particular Christian sect; and on the other, it is a holiday that can be freel expressed by any person at the level and to whatever diety they desire to acknowledge (or even ignore).
 
I know that of course Muslims don't celebrate Christian holidays like Christmas. And my experience is that Muslims do celebrate secular holidays like New Years. But how about those national holidays that are not truly belong to a particular religion, but still carry religious overtones to them? I was thinking in particular of Thanksgiving.

Can/do Muslims in the USA celebrate Thanksgiving?

Surely the concept is one that a Muslim can accept -- giving thanks to God for all of his blessings in our life. Yet, on the one hand, the origins of it in the USA have to do with a particular Christian sect; and on the other, it is a holiday that can be freel expressed by any person at the level and to whatever diety they desire to acknowledge (or even ignore).

Peace Gene,

Much will depend on the individual's concept as to what Thanksgiving is and how it should be celebrated. I can only speak for myself. The day itself is not significant because of the day. However, as I try to be Thankfull each day, I feel that it would be a dishonor and not fully giving Thanks to Allaah(swt) when an opportunity has arisen for family and friends to be freed from the responsibilities of work and able to give Thanks together. It is not a single day, that is to be the only day to Thank Allaah(swt), it is a day that most people can do so together, freed from distractions. If people wish to call that a celebration, that is simply a difference of views, I am comfortable in calling it a day for Thanksgiving in union with family and friends.
 
By Grace seeker--
"Having read the Quran and other books about Islam, and having been on these boards a short period of time there are many things I have learned about Islam. Some I agree with, some I don't. Much I respect. A few things I am still leary of.

And then there are those things that I still don't fully understand, or at least don't understand the reasoning behind them. (Perhaps for some there is none; maybe it is just what is commanded.)

First, among the things I am curious about, is the role of music, or maybe I should say the absence of a role for music. Music plays an important part in the life and worship of both Christianity and Judaism. If Islam is the same message that would have been presented by all of the prophets, and music had such an important place previously in the practice of worship, why didn't those prophets condemn it? And since they didn't, why is it not allowed now? And yet, the call to worship itself sounds like a type of chant, isn't this a form of music?

Is it just in worship that music is not allowed? On the forums I hear people talk about music as if it is itself an evil thing? Yet I know that many Muslims enjoy music, that folk music is central to the lives of many people scattered around the world in nearly every country, and these include Muslims. The whirling dervishes of Turkey are supposedly a type of worship and are most certainly accompanied to music. Some people grow rich by marketing special types of music specifically to Muslims. So, many of these things just don't fit together for me.

What is halal and what is haram in regards to music? What makes one halal and the other haram? "
---------Look Grace seeker.Music is totally forbidden in our religion our prophet's have forbidden us form that and it is something which displeases Allah and pleases the devil. Even the prophets before condemned but what happened when they tried to t people to stop their sins especially the jews, they killed them!!!
its your choice to accept Islam or not but i am sorry that is how it is Allah has ordered to accept what the Prophet has ordered us to do and to stay away from what he has forbidden us to do.
 
I know that of course Muslims don't celebrate Christian holidays like Christmas. And my experience is that Muslims do celebrate secular holidays like New Years. But how about those national holidays that are not truly belong to a particular religion, but still carry religious overtones to them? I was thinking in particular of Thanksgiving.

Can/do Muslims in the USA celebrate Thanksgiving?

Surely the concept is one that a Muslim can accept -- giving thanks to God for all of his blessings in our life. Yet, on the one hand, the origins of it in the USA have to do with a particular Christian sect; and on the other, it is a holiday that can be freel expressed by any person at the level and to whatever diety they desire to acknowledge (or even ignore).

Nope, we can't (especially because of the religious thing). But we aren't even meant to celebrate New Years by the way!
 
Greetings,


Also without trying to be offensive (I may have misunderstood you):

The call to prayer and reciting the Qur'an do have a rhythm. So do our voices when we speak, or our hearts when they beat. Does that make all of those things music and therefore haraam? I think not.

Peace

Hi,

every beat is not music, whilst every music has beats. Every rhythm is not music, whilst every music has rhythm. So a speech can have rhythm and yet it is not music. When we say music, me mean playing the instruments and/or singing along.
 
I know that of course Muslims don't celebrate Christian holidays like Christmas. And my experience is that Muslims do celebrate secular holidays like New Years. But how about those national holidays that are not truly belong to a particular religion, but still carry religious overtones to them? I was thinking in particular of Thanksgiving.

Can/do Muslims in the USA celebrate Thanksgiving?

Surely the concept is one that a Muslim can accept -- giving thanks to God for all of his blessings in our life. Yet, on the one hand, the origins of it in the USA have to do with a particular Christian sect; and on the other, it is a holiday that can be freel expressed by any person at the level and to whatever diety they desire to acknowledge (or even ignore).

Hi Grace,

these are the only holidays that Muslims celebrate: the 2 E'ids and every Jumaa (Friday). About being thankful to Allah ta'ala: we do not link this act to a specific day or like we do not link the 18th of March to be nice to our women (perhaps that date's already been changed?) - these are normal daily acts of every Muslim. If, however, a Muslim celebrates any holiday apart from what I've mentioned, then surely they lost track and are committing a sin.

PS About the (Christian) New Year - if Muslims were allowed to celebrate NY why would they celebrate a Chriatian NY as we also have our New Year - Hijri New Year? And we celebrate none of them.
 
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Hi Grace,
About the (Christian) New Year - if Muslims were allowed to celebrate NY why would they celebrate a Chriatian NY as we also have our New Year - Hijri New Year? And we celebrate none of them.
There is no such thing as a Christian New Year. And as far as the church is concerned, the church year starts the first Sunday of Advent, which is always 4 Sundays before Christmas. That makes the beginning of the church year this year December 2, not January 1.



these are the only holidays that Muslims celebrate: the 2 E'ids and every Jumaa (Friday). About being thankful to Allah ta'ala: we do not link this act to a specific day or like we do not link the 18th of March to be nice to our women (perhaps that date's already been changed?) - these are normal daily acts of every Muslim. If, however, a Muslim celebrates any holiday apart from what I've mentioned, then surely they lost track and are committing a sin.
So, Muslims in countries like Turkey don't celebrate the Day of the National Republic? Come on. I know better. Are you saying it would be wrong for a Muslim living in the USA to celebrate the nation's independence on July 4?

BTW, being thankful to God is a normal daily act of a Christian or a Jew as well. That doesn't make it wrong for us to be extra intentional to set aside a day to give thanks.


Do Muslims believe it is wrong to stand in honor of their country when their country's national anthem is played?
 
So, Muslims in countries like Turkey don't celebrate the Day of the National Republic? Come on. I know better.

I meant in Islam, there are only those holidays that I listed (as far as I know).

Grace Seeker said:
Are you saying it would be wrong for a Muslim living in the USA to celebrate the nation's independence on July 4?

YES. Deadly wrong.

Grace Seeker said:
Do Muslims believe it is wrong to stand in honor of their country when their country's national anthem is played?

I DO believe. Nationality is a minor thing, just like the socks you wear today, at the end of the day, you will (hopefully!) put them in in a washing machine. Islam is all that matters.
 
Assalamu alykum
Muslim is not allowed in islam bt poetry is
Music is jus like poetry bt with d accompaniment of musical instruments
Wat makes music haram is the contents plus the instruments...As u say there are many hadiths against music and none from the quran....i think u r wrong coz 1st hadith explains more about wats in d quran. there are many verses regarding music...the only one i can rem now.sadly,is the 6th verse from suratul luqmaan
lemme ask something....

WAT DO WE REALLY BENEFIT FROM MUSIC....???I have never really understood that
 
salaam/peace;


i think there is a difference between holidays & festivals. Muslims have 2 festives as the bro mentioned --2 Eids.

about celebrating thanks giving , New year .....somehow these have pagan roots & mixed with so many unIslamic matters that it's safe not to join there.

In my country , young Muslims jump in to streets on 31 Dec night , dance the whole night & many of them take drugs , drink alcohol

( may Allah show us all the right path ).



I have to look for fatwa but it seems to me that nothing is wrong if we " stand when country's national anthem is played"-- showing love & respect to motherland can't be unIslamic. Prophet (p) was extremely sad when he left holy Macca.



Verses we need specially for hereafter


When the sky is cleft asunder, and when the stars are scattered, and when the seas burst beyond their bounds and when the graves are overturned ?


every human being will comprehend, what he has sent ahead and what he has held back [in this world].

-Quran (82:1-5)
 
jouju, MadeenJibreel, al-muslimah, et. al.:

This thread is NOT about music in the Muslim world. That was just one of many things that this thread was created to discuss. As the originator of this thread, I can tell you that I was surprised by the amount of discussion that topic generated, as I thought it would be a rather "safe" first question. Haha, I was proved wrong. But the questions that I was looking for with regard to a Muslim understanding of music have been answered many, many months ago.

Presently, I am trying to get a better understanding of how individual Muslims relate to the culture of the countries they live in. I find it curious that it is ok the celebate the National Day of the Republic in Turkey, but not the nation's Independence Day celebration in the USA? Can someone explain to me the difference? Both are purely national, non-religious holidays. Neither has any pagan roots to their respective holidays. Both celebrate their respective country's establishment as a modern nation. And both actually declare their freedom from British influence and their own sense of autonomy and self-identity. Why is one right and one wrong?
 
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jouju, MadeenJibreel, al-muslimah, et. al.:

This thread is NOT about music in the Muslim world. That was just one of many things that this thread was created to discuss. As the originator of this thread, I can tell you that I was surprised by the amount of discussion that topic generated, as I thought it would be a rather "safe" first question. Haha, I was proved wrong. But the questions that I was looking for with regard to a Muslim understanding of music have been answered many, many months ago.

Presently, I am trying to get a better understanding of how individual Muslims relate to the culture of the countries they live in. I find it curious that it is ok the celebate the National Day of the Republic in Turkey, but not the nation's Independence Day celebration in the USA? Can someone explain to me the difference? Both are purely national, non-religious holidays. Neither has any pagan roots to their respective holidays. Both celebrate their respective country's establishment as a modern nation. And both actually declare their freedom from British influence and their own sense of autonomy and self-identity. Why is one right and one wrong?

GraceSeeker,

I'll explain this to you in simple words: 2 E'ids were prescribed to us by Allah ta'ala and the Juma day (Fridays), whilst all those national holidays are human invention. That's the difference and it's big enough.

PS There isn't any difference between american or turkish national day.

PS2 I never mentioned music as far as I can remember.
 
[Grace Seeker;871226]jouju, MadeenJibreel, al-muslimah, et. al.:

This thread is NOT about music in the Muslim world. That was just one of many things that this thread was created to discuss. As the originator of this thread, I can tell you that I was surprised by the amount of discussion that topic generated, as I thought it would be a rather "safe" first question. Haha, I was proved wrong. But the questions that I was looking for with regard to a Muslim understanding of music have been answered many, many months ago.

Presently, I am trying to get a better understanding of how individual Muslims relate to the culture of the countries they live in. I find it curious that it is ok the celebate the National Day of the Republic in Turkey, but not the nation's Independence Day celebration in the USA? Can someone explain to me the difference? Both are purely national, non-religious holidays. Neither has any pagan roots to their respective holidays. Both celebrate their respective country's establishment as a modern nation. And both actually declare their freedom from British influence and their own sense of autonomy and self-identity. Why is one right and one wrong?[/


:sl:

Peace Be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

we have an easy formula to figure out if something is allowed or not. we return to the Hajj performed by the Rasoolullah, Sallalahu Alaihe Wa Salaam, and some of the very last ayats of the Qur'an to be revealed were addressed during his Kutbah:

[5.3] Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

so a proper Mu'min will only avail him or herself of the holidays that were instituted by the Rasoolullah, Sallalahu Alaihe Wa Salaam, in accordance with revelation.

ANY OTHER HOLIDAYS WHETHER INSTITUED BY MAN, A COUNTRY OR EVEN AN "ISLAMIC" COUNTRY ARE AN INNOVATION AND ARE NOT ISLAMIC!

i hope that this clears this matter up for you.

:w:
 
so a proper Mu'min will only avail him or herself of the holidays that were instituted by the Rasoolullah, Sallalahu Alaihe Wa Salaam, in accordance with revelation.

ANY OTHER HOLIDAYS WHETHER INSTITUED BY MAN, A COUNTRY OR EVEN AN "ISLAMIC" COUNTRY ARE AN INNOVATION AND ARE NOT ISLAMIC!

i hope that this clears this matter up for you.

:w:

Well, it helps, and clearly is in accord with what MadeenJibreel said "There isn't any difference between american or turkish national day," but it doesn't clear everything up.

For instance, it seems that every country I know, including those dominated by Muslims among the citizenry have national holidays. If it is against Islam, why is it something that Muslims around the world seem to participate in? Do they just not know any better or do they know but just do not care about it that much?

But the part that is most confusing to me has to do with the appiclation of the priniciple you invoked. The priniciple seems to be that things that are innovations are not Islamic, be these innovations with regard to music (one of the old themese of this thread), or national holidays, or many other things I have come across on this forum. Yet there are other innovations, many of them aspects of our modern society, that are very easily and commonly accepted. How does one determine what is an acceptable and what is an unacceptable innovation?
 
But the part that is most confusing to me has to do with the appiclation of the priniciple you invoked. The priniciple seems to be that things that are innovations are not Islamic, be these innovations with regard to music (one of the old themese of this thread), or national holidays, or many other things I have come across on this forum. Yet there are other innovations, many of them aspects of our modern society, that are very easily and commonly accepted. How does one determine what is an acceptable and what is an unacceptable innovation?

the prohibition of innovation pertains to innovation in religion/practice.
national holidays as far as i know, doesn't come under innovation. i believe that they are forbidden because nationalism itself is forbidden.
and there is also a prohibition of immitating non-muslims.
the rulings on music have nothing to do with innovation, as far as i know.
if i'm wrong, i trust someone will correct me.
 
I feel a lot of misunderstandings occur over connotations of words and the semantics used. there is difference in the way people of different cultures will perceive statements made in a language that is not their native tongue.

Celebration is one of these things. I believe the concept of celebration differs very differently among native English speakers and those who come from non English speaking heritage. Celebration is a term widely used in English and it often has no reference to a religious practice. westerners celebrate, waking up to a new day, national pickle week, ground hog day, the first day of anything, Friday nights, the birth of a child, a win at foot ball, a good pay check, last day at work, moving to a new home, not having to move, arrival of mail, sending mail, the list is endless.

Some western people consider every meal a celebration. So to carry things to extreme we are partaking in the Western custom of celebrating a meal every time we eat. I doubt if any of us would view eating as an innovation. I believe intent and ritual or lack of ritual will determine if what we do is a celebration, in our concepts of celebration. I know that is an extreme, but I point that out hopefully to give an example of what some of the things are that can be called celebrations in the English Language, yet not meet our own definition of a celebration.

So the question of Thanksgiving becomes: "Is it a celebration by our concept of celebration or is it more in line with our concept of sharing a meal with family and friends."
 

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