Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Imam]

Given that the use of the Hebrew term Elohim in the Tanakh predates the origin of Arabic as a language, it would be extremely hard for it to derive from any Arabic word.

Not that hard ,seeker

Hebrew Older Than Arabic ! ?

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/jan/article308.html

Anyway that wasn't the point seeker ,the writer just highlighted one of the views reagarding the origin of Elohim , our point not neccesarly the origin,but rather whether it indicate plurality of persons or not ,and you agree it doesn't..

So, let's check what the Qur'an says:
Does this verse actually say that Christians worship Mary as a god?

The denial of Jesus's divinity ,The trinity,the worshipe of Mary and sanits is presented in the Quran in several verses ,but let's highlight the verse you mentioned:


In a dialogue, at the Day of Judgement, between the Almighty Jesus. All the Messengers and their nations will gather before God and He will ask the Messengers how they were received by their people and what they said to them. Among those who will be questioned is Jesus:

"And when God said, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods , apart from God"? He said, 'To you be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, you would have known it, knowing what is within my heart, though I do not know your knowledge; you know the things unseen. I only said to them what you did commands me: "Serve God, my God and your God." (Al-Maida 5-116)


Why Allah will Ask such question regarding Mary?

Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.”
Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” Essentials of Evangelical Theology, Vol. 1, page 196.

If you want to see what a person's real priorities are, then watch what they do when their life, or the life of a loved one, is in danger. When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over, “Mary, my mother!” Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank herJames G. McCarthy, The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God, pp. 181-184; 199-200.

A lay movement called “Vox Populi” (“Voice of the People”) gathers signed petitions to send to the Pope, seeking to have him officially declare that Mary is Co Redemptrix. Over six million signatures have been sent to him, representing 138 countries and all seven continents. This doctrine is supported by over 40 cardinals and 600 bishops worldwide
Queenship Jubilee Year 2000 Catalog, page 92.



Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled The Glories of Mary which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary.

the Catholic Church canonized him(Alfonsus de Liguori) as a saint and declared him to be a “doctor of the Church” (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority). Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. William Webster, The Church of Rome at the Bar of History, page 87.


When I was in the convent, our mother superior told us about Catholics in Mexico who, in their devotion to Mary, were doing things that we would only do when worshipping God. We were concerned about this.After years of no longer being a Catholic, I attended a Catholic funeral. When I went into the church something hit me hard. It had always been there, but I had never noticed it before because I was used to it. There were statues of Mary and the saints. They looked solid, real, as if they represented people of power. Jesus only appeared as a helpless baby in Mary’s arms, as a dead man nailed to a cross, and as little wafers of bread hidden inside a fancy box. Visually and emotionally the message was very clear - if you want real power, if you want someone who can do something for you, then go to Mary and the Saints. Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)



At Fatima, Portugal, crowds of over a million people gather on the anniversary of the apparition of Our Lady of Fatima. The celebration includes a procession of a million people following a statue of Mary and singing her praises
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”

Indeed, I do understand that joining others with Allah is what is meant by "shirk".

And the previous facts affirm that Mary is one of those.....
And the Qur'an specifically says that one should NOT do this

Indeed, I do understand that joining others with Allah is what is meant by "shirk". And the Qur'an specifically says that one should NOT do this:

What is 'Shirk according to the Quran ?

1. Taking human beings from among ourselves as Lords or Patrons besides Allah
1. Taking angels or Prophets as Lords or Patrons besides Allah
2. Taking Ahbaar and Rahbaan (religious authorities) as Lords and Patrons besides Allah
3. Worshipping, obeying and adoring [IBADAT of] anything besides Allah
4. Calling upon others [graves, mystics, saints, idols, etc.] besides Allah for help
5- To ascribe Allah’s partners in His Kingship or dominion

Where does the Qur'an describe Christian beliefs as "shirk"?

9:31 They take their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics to be their Lords* besides Allah. And they take as their Lord, the Messiah son of Mary.

3:80 Nor would he instruct you to take the angels and the Prophets for lords and patrons. Would he command you to disbelieve after you have surrendered to Allah?

Surah 4: 169. O ye people of the Book! do not exceed in your religion, nor say against God aught save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, is but the apostle of God

Surah 5 :76-79. They misbelieve who say, "Verily, God is the Messiah the son of Mary;"

And the Qur'an talks about the Trinity, but it's description of the Trinity is not a Trinity that Christians actually believe in (Surah 5:73):

Quote:
YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in all.Ephesians 4:6


If the father of all is called God (Allah) ,and the father is one of the three persons of the trinity ,then Allah is one of three in a Trinity !!!!

so Hard to comprehend?!!!

 

[Grace Seeker]

9:31 They take their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics to be their Lords* besides Allah. And they take as their Lord, the Messiah son of Mary.

So, are you claiming that the use of the term "Lord" is identifying a person as being worshipped?

When in the past I have pointed out to Muslims who question that Jesus own disciples thought of him as God and cited that Jesus was addressed as Lord in the Bible, Muslims have told that it was merely the equivalence of calling him "sir". So which is it? When the disciples refer to Jesus as Lord are they worshipping him or are they just using a title of respect?

one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in all.Ephesians 4:6


If the father of all is called God (Allah) ,and the father is one of the three persons of the trinity ,then Allah is one of three in a Trinity !!!!

so Hard to comprehend?!!!

Evidently it is. You completely by-passed the key point of that verse -- namely, there is just one God. What more proof of the monotheism of Christianity could you want than the verse you yourself just quoted?



--------------------------------


Oh, and while you are proving my point, even the article you linked to which argues for the possibility of Arabic being older than Hebrew backs up my contention that a Hebrew word would not have been derived from an Arabic word, for even in saying that Arabic may be older than Hebrew, it sees them as both being derived from a common ancestor language not and not Hebrew being derived from Arabic.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;


a related Q & A

Virgin Mary and Christian Trinity


Name of Counselor

Nabil Haroun​

O Jesus son of Mary

did you say to mankind, "Take me and my mother to your selves as two gods, apart from Allah?" ........(chapter 5: verse 116)

The text above, to start with, says nothing regarding the Christian trinity.


It simply says that Christians, after Christ, have falsely deified both Jesus and his mother; and that Jesus will be witness over them before Allah in the hereafter.


The wording of the verses cannot be twisted any further to serve the purpose of an imaginary conflict with historical facts; a technique often practiced by some Christian missionaries and Orientalists.

Truth is always simple, crystal clear and straightforward; while fallacies are always complicated, mysterious and tortuous​

...For Christians, including their clergy, it is simply a mystery they have to dogmatically accept.


Quoting a few Christian authorities (M. A. C. Cave, "Is the Trinity Doctrine Divinely Inspired"):

- "God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it." (Monsignor Eugene Clark)

- "We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don't begin to understand." (Cardinal John O'Connor)

- "The inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity." (Pope John Paul II)
​

...

The deifying of Jesus and his mother has similarly crept into Christianity, gradually after their departure.


First, the status of Jesus was changed from: a human prophet, one of a long string of prophets, to be the "son of God" then to "God incarnate".

Jesus himself has never claimed to be divine or semi-divine. To the contrary, he repeatedly affirmed his human nature and role; and warned those who might unduly ascribe such false attributes to himself:

- "As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God." (John 8:40)

- "'What things?' he asked. 'About Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied. 'He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people.'" (Luke 24:19)


This conforms with the Qur'anic description, when it says what means:

*{Surely the likeness of Jesus in the providence of Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He (Allah) created him of dust, thereafter He said to him, “Be!” so he is (i.e., he was)}* (Aal`Imran 3:59)


..
Later, the status of Virgin Mary has similarly been unduly elevated, to different extents by different Christian denominations.



Some regard her to be the 'Mother of God', the 'Spouse of the Holy Spirit', 'Mary as Coredemptrix' (i.e. that Mary participated in some way in Christ's redemption of mankind), or 'Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces' (i.e. that all graces Christ obtains for humanity are dispensed by and through Mary.


Others claim that: "God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation." (Catholic.org)

Other groups have more explicitly taken her as a full deity, addressing her as:
"Woman! Thou art God. She is Love! She Provides! Pray to Her! She is Powerful! She Comforts!;"

And, call on their followers:
"How to worship Mary? Pray with Her and to Her!" (WomanThouArtGod.com)​

....It is also worth mentioning that the Qur'an holds Mary in high esteem, as in the following verses (English meaning):

.... And Maryam (Mary) daughter of `Imran, who kept safe her private parts, (i.e., safeguarded) so We breathed in it of Our Spirit, and she sincerely (believed) in the Words of her Lord, and His Books; and she was one of the devout.}*


(At-Tahrim 66:11-12)

Useful Links:
​

Who Invented the Trinity?



Virgin Mary in Islamic Teachings



Was Mary Married?



What is the Holy Spirit?

​

​

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...kAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1139226324090

 

[glo]

Muslim Woman, I have never met any Christian of any denomination who deified Mary, mother of Jesus ...

I don't know what kind of 'Christians' the Qu'ran is referring to - but I have never met anybody like that ...

 

[YusufNoor]

And the Qur'an talks about the Trinity, but it's description of the Trinity is not a Trinity that Christians actually believe in (Surah 5:73):

Muhsin Khan: Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.
Shakir: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.
Sahih International: They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

Not one of these interpretions of the Qur'an properly states the Christians understanding of what is meant by Trinity when Christians refer to the term, so who is it that the Qur'an is talking about as these blasphemers and disbelievers, because it can't be Christians. Christians DO NOTsay that Allah is one of three; Christians DO NOT say that Allah is the third of three; and Christians DO NOT say that Allah is the third person of the three. That is not a correct understanding of the Trinity from a Christian point of view. Since the Qur'an can never be wrong, surely the Qur'an must then be talking about some other group of people besides Christians. Who is it?

Muhsin Khan: They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad SAW has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).

Muhsin Khan: They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilah (God - Allah) La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."

Muhsin Khan: O you who believe! Verily, there are many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks who devour the wealth of mankind in falsehood, and hinder (them) from the Way of Allah (i.e. Allah's Religion of Islamic Monotheism). And those who hoard up gold and silver [Al-Kanz: the money, the Zakat of which has not been paid], and spend it not in the Way of Allah, -announce unto them a painful torment.

Muhsin Khan: On the Day when that (Al-Kanz: money, gold and silver, etc., the Zakat of which has not been paid) will be heated in the Fire of Hell and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, (and it will be said unto them):-"This is the treasure which you hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what you used to hoard."

for the Mushrikun

from here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

The dogma of the Trinity

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

so let's quote "Three Persons being truly distinct one from another": that means they the Christians have ONE GOD (NUMBER ONE), whom they call the Father who is truly distinct from the lesser gods whom they call the Son and the Holy Spirit, and then they have ANOTHER god (NUMBER TWO) whom they have called the son, who is distinct from the OTHER [G]od whom they call the Father and the Holy Spirit, and YET ANOTHER god (NUMBER THREE) called the Holy Spirit whom is distinct from the OTHER [G]od whom they call the Father and the son.

let's look at the definition of distinct, shall we:

source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/distinct


Main Entry:
dis·tinct Listen to the pronunciation of distinct
Pronunciation:
\di-ˈstiŋ(k)t\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Latin distinctus, from past participle of distinguere
Date:
14th century

1: distinguishable to the eye or mind as discrete : separate <a distinct cultural group> <teaching as distinct from research>
2: presenting a clear unmistakable impression <a neat distinct handwriting>
3archaic : notably decorated
4 a: notable <a distinct contribution to scholarship> b: readily and unmistakably apprehended <a distinct possibility of snow> <a distinct British accent>
— dis·tinct·ly Listen to the pronunciation of distinctly \-ˈstiŋ(k)-tlē, -ˈstiŋ-klē\ adverb
— dis·tinct·ness Listen to the pronunciation of distinctness \-ˈstiŋ(k)t-nəs, -ˈstiŋk-nəs\ noun
synonyms distinct, separate, discrete mean not being each and every one the same. distinct indicates that something is distinguished by the mind or eye as being apart or different from others <two distinct versions>. separate often stresses lack of connection or a difference in identity between two things <separate rooms>. discrete strongly emphasizes individuality and lack of connection <broke the job down into discrete stages>.

the emphasis on the meaning is "separate or different"; therefore we see conclusively that 1+1+1=3; and that if someone writes [in ignorance] 1x1x1=1, it is NOT CORRECT as the units in question are "separate or different" and NOT the same.

i hope this truly helps to clarify the matter!

 

[YusufNoor]

Muslim Woman, I have never met any Christian of any denomination who deified Mary, mother of Jesus ...

I don't know what kind of 'Christians' the Qu'ran is referring to - but I have never met anybody like that ...

Peace Gol,

i have met thousands, and that is just the Catholics! let me explain so that you can understand, let's look at this article in Wikipedia [for which i apologize to Purest]:

Du'a (دُعَاء) (also spelt du'ah or dwuha) is a supplication in Islam, an Arabic term which means to 'call out' or to 'summon'. Muslims use this term and call out to God, and Muslims regard this as one of the second greatest acts of worship in Islam. The Islamic prophet Muhammad is reported to have said "Dua is the very essence of worship." One of Allah's commands expressed to Muslims through the Quran is for them to call out to it:

"And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer)!" [1

which gives a reasonable explanation of Surah 40 Al Ghafir:

60:
Muhsin Khan: And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, [i.e. believe in My Oneness (Islamic Monotheism)] (and ask Me for anything) I will respond to your (invocation). Verily! Those who scorn My worship [i.e. do not invoke Me, and do not believe in My Oneness, (Islamic Monotheism)] they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!"
Shakir: And your Lord says: Call upon Me, I will answer you; surely those who are too proud for My service shall soon enter hell abased.
Sahih International: And your Lord says, "Call upon Me; I will respond to you." Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell [rendered] contemptible.

so to "call upon someone in prayer is worship!"

now, let's look at the Prayer known as the Hail Mary:

again, from Wikipedia:

Áve María, grátia pléna, Dóminus técum. Benedícta tu in muliéribus, et benedíctus frúctus véntris túi, Iésus.[8]
Sáncta María, Máter Déi, óra pro nóbis peccatóribus, nunc et in hóra mórtis nóstrae. Ámen.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

how far in this "dua" do we have to go until we reach the "worship" or "shirk" aspect?"

let's recite together until we reach that point, shall we:

Hail Mary or Sancta Maria, STOP! there it is! calling on Mary is supplicating to Mary which is worshipping Mary! quite simple actually!

are we clear?

 

[Keltoi]

I see some are trying very hard to tell Christians what they believe again. It isn't working.

The concept of asking saints for intercession is not worship. It follows the same concept as asking someone else to pray for you. As Christians, or more specifically Catholics in this case, people who devoted their lives to Christ above and beyond the call of duty(saints) are not dead but have achieved eternal life in the light of God, therefor still able to pray for us. The fact that some Catholics appear to place too much emphasis on intercession with the saints is not a sign of Christian doctrine, but perhaps a lapse in personal judgement and understanding of Christian doctrine.

 

[glo]

I agree with Keltoi's explanation, Yusuf.

I am not a Catholic, but Catholics would reply to your post that they may see Mary (and other saints) as intercessors in prayer, but not as deities.
Keltoi has said it better than me, so I'll leave it at that ...

 

[Grace Seeker]

from here:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm



so let's quote "Three Persons being truly distinct one from another": is truly distinct from the lesser gods whom they call the Son and ththat means they the Christians have ONE GOD (NUMBER ONE), whom they call the Father who e Holy Spirit, and then they have ANOTHER god (NUMBER TWO) whom they have called the son, who is distinct from the OTHER [G]od whom they call the Father and the Holy Spirit, and YET ANOTHER god (NUMBER THREE) called the Holy Spirit whom is distinct from the OTHER [G]od whom they call the Father and the son.

NO. This is not what it means.

That is exactly my point. If you were taking a theology test at a Christian school and gave your interpretation as the answer to the question, "What is meant by the Trinity?" you would fail the test for you have it less than half right.


Your interpretation of what New Advent said is NOT what they actually said. Your (and the rest of Islam's) interpretation of the Trinity is NOT what Christians actually believe with regard to the Trinity. That is why I keep reiterating that Muslims first create and then debate scarecrows when arguing against the Trinity. Reject it all you want, but please reject the Trinity we actually believe in if it is the Christian Trinity you desire to reject. Both you (and even Muhammad (pbuh)) appear to have rejected something that I and the historic Christian faith don't believe in any more than you do.

As I have already said, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are indeed distinct persons (indeed as distinct as your definition makes them), but that must be held in tension with their indivisibleness as one God. As long as you focus only on one aspect, either the distinctiveness of the persons from one another, or only on the oneness of God and his separateness from humanity, then you will have a god that is less than the God of the Christian faith.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Muslim Woman, I will agree that in my personal life I have never met any Christian, not even a Catholic, who diefied Mary. And I know while some of the behaviors of individual Catholic believers appear to suggest otherwise that, at least in their official statements of faith, that Catholics only venerate rather than worship Mary and they do draw a distinction between those terms. (Admittedly that you will find some dictionaries that, depending on the definition used, make them appear as synonymns; but by the definitions that Catholics use they are not the same.)

This does not mean that in certain locales you won't find even whole groups of Catholics who do otherwise. I understand that this is a particular concern in Mexico, where it is hard to tell the adoration accorded the Virgin of Guadalope from worship. But even then, such practice is not Catholic teaching but the influence of indigenous Indian religions that still permeate the culture.

 

[Grace Seeker]

the emphasis on the meaning is "separate or different"; therefore we see conclusively that 1+1+1=3; and that if someone writes [in ignorance] 1x1x1=1, it is NOT CORRECT as the units in question are "separate or different" and NOT the same.

Though I'm about to border on modalism, 1x1x1=1 does come much closer to representing the Christian understanding. For we are talking about just one God, viewed three different distinct times in unique and individual ways, but still just the one God. So one time we might view the work of God as the Father, another time we might view the work of God as the Son, and yet another time we might view the work of God as the Holy Spirit. There are three distinctly different works, and yet each time the work was the work of God who is himself one Being.


(My apologies to other Christian theologians who will recognize the modalism in my above statement, as you are aware whether it be physical symbols like eggs or apples or mathematical forumlas, analogies are at best representations that are somewhat "like" something, they are not the same as. They teach some truths, but not the whole of it, and if stretched too far beyond the point they are intended to make, they break down. I recognize that, and therefore don't pretend that any analogy says all there is to say about God who is at once three distinct persons and yet one indivisible being.)

 

[Imam]

So which is it? When the disciples refer to Jesus as Lord are they worshipping him or are they just using a title of respect?
So, are you claiming that the use of the term "Lord" is identifying a person as being worshipped?

The term Lord ,as you know better than me ,could be used either as a title of respect or to worship


John 13:4 He rises from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter said unto him, Lord,(respect) dost thou wash my feet?


Lord(God) Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner.


But it is not our issue ,our issue is that ,what violates the Quranic principles regarding monotheism?

The verse says:
9:31 They take their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics to be their Lords* besides Allah. And they take as their Lord, the Messiah son of Mary.

Not

They call their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics Lords.


Call Jesus ,Lord ,if you wish ,day and night ,never never take him as Lord besides God ....

one God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in all.Ephesians 4:6
What more proof of the monotheism of Christianity could you want than the verse you yourself just quoted?

you asked me,now let me ask you :what more proof of God not being triune,no one else like him,none else the same as his material ,could you want than the following verses:


""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"


Jesus said"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36)

"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

Luke 23:46

Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Note the verse doesn't say:

Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is Jesus is sitting at his right hand


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. ( Mark 12:29)"

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he.

Your (and the rest of Islam's) interpretation of the Trinity is NOT what Christians actually believe
There are three distinctly different works, and yet each time the work was the work of God who is himself one Being.
there is to say about God who is at once three distinct persons and yet one indivisible being.
As I have already said, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are indeed distinct persons

Seeker ,You are at it again. When will you ever learn!?
As a matter of fact ,the problem is not that muslims don't understand what trinity IS ,It is that christians need to undestand what Trinity ISN'T.......

If you keep using these terms, so you are obligated to provide definitions of "being" and "person" and a distinction between the two. Without a doubletalk, what are the differences? in fact, there are no differences
only obfuscation."Being" and "person" have no distinction and are merely elements of a ruse employed by christians. Because they can come up with two different words, they, therefore, claim they have two different entities.
If Jesus is God and the Father is God, then how can God be a being. It must be a quality such as Godhood or Godhead. But it is not a separate being per se. Christians call this three persons within one being but fail to admit that one of the beings is separate from the other three beings. Thus, there are not 3 persons within one being but 3 separate beings distinct from a fourth being which has a separate and distinct identity. On the other hand, whenever expediency dictates, Christians dissolve the beingness or personhood of God and turn him into nothing more than a general term, a rubric, into which the other 3 beings are absorbed, much like the words "mankind" or "dogkind" and use words like "Godhead" or "Godhood." Your argument is as,that Robert is a separate and distinct human; John is a separate and distinct human; therefore, "human" is a separate and distinct being.(The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy)

Is this the God that "is personal, for He speaks, wills, acts, and reveals Himself" or is this the God known as the Godhead, the Godhood, the general term encompassing the Trinity? If it is the former, then how on earth do three beings exist within a fourth being all of whom are separate from one another? If it is the latter, then how could it speak, act, and have a will to begin with? your failure, which is encompassed in a distinct aura of intentional avoidance, to adequately define what you are even talking about.

even the article you linked to which argues for the possibility of Arabic being older than Hebrew backs up my contention that a Hebrew word would not have been derived from an Arabic word, for even in saying that Arabic may be older than Hebrew, it sees them as both being derived from a common ancestor language not and not Hebrew being derived from Arabic.

Yes, Hebrew is older than Arabic
No,Arabic is older than Hebrew

What does that change or add to our original point (Plural of Majesty?!!!

what matters not which is older,it is, do both(Hebrew,Arabic) ,besides Aramic, have such plural form for majesty...and that is the crux of the matter ......
and that is your style often ,Seeker ,whenever you fail to counter the basic arguments you resort to the trivial points ....

 

[Grace Seeker]

Peace Gol,

i have met thousands, and that is just the Catholics! let me explain so that you can understand, let's look at this article in Wikipedia [for which i apologize to Purest]:



which gives a reasonable explanation of Surah 40 Al Ghafir:

60:
Muhsin Khan: And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, [i.e. believe in My Oneness (Islamic Monotheism)] (and ask Me for anything) I will respond to your (invocation). Verily! Those who scorn My worship [i.e. do not invoke Me, and do not believe in My Oneness, (Islamic Monotheism)] they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!"
Shakir: And your Lord says: Call upon Me, I will answer you; surely those who are too proud for My service shall soon enter hell abased.
Sahih International: And your Lord says, "Call upon Me; I will respond to you." Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell [rendered] contemptible.

so to "call upon someone in prayer is worship!"

now, let's look at the Prayer known as the Hail Mary:

again, from Wikipedia:



how far in this "dua" do we have to go until we reach the "worship" or "shirk" aspect?"

let's recite together until we reach that point, shall we:

Hail Mary or Sancta Maria, STOP! there it is! calling on Mary is supplicating to Mary which is worshipping Mary! quite simple actually!

are we clear?

Interesting. Then what does one make of this passage:

YUSUFALI: O Prophet! When believing women come to thee to take the oath of fealty to thee, that they will not associate in worship any other thing whatever with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit adultery (or fornication), that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood, and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter,- then do thou receive their fealty, and pray to Allah for the forgiveness (of their sins): for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Taking an oath of fealty not to Allah, but to Muhammad.

Let's see what that means:

from Merriam-Webster
FEALTY
One entry found.

Main Entry: fe·al·ty
Pronunciation: \ˈfē(-ə)l-tē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural fe·al·ties
Etymology: Middle English feute, fealtye, from Anglo-French feelté, fealté, from Latin fidelitat-, fidelitas — more at fidelity
Date: 14th century
1 a: the fidelity of a vassal or feudal tenant to his lord b: the obligation of such fidelity
2: intense fidelity

synonyms: see fidelity

So, let's look up fidelity:

from Merriam-Webster
FIDELITY

Main Entry: fi·del·i·ty
Pronunciation: \fə-ˈde-lə-tē, fī-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural fi·del·i·ties
Etymology: Middle English fidelite, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French fidelité, from Latin fidelitat-, fidelitas, from fidelis faithful, from fides faith, from fidere to trust — more at bide
Date: 15th century
1 a: the quality or state of being faithful b: accuracy in details : exactness
2: the degree to which an electronic device (as a record player, radio, or television) accurately reproduces its effect (as sound or picture)

synonyms: fidelity, allegiance, fealty, loyalty, devotion, piety mean faithfulness to something to which one is bound by pledge or duty. fidelity implies strict and continuing faithfulness to an obligation, trust, or duty <marital fidelity>. allegiance suggests an adherence like that of citizens to their country <pledging allegiance>. fealty implies a fidelity acknowledged by the individual and as compelling as a sworn vow <fealty to the truth>. loyalty implies a faithfulness that is steadfast in the face of any temptation to renounce, desert, or betray <valued the loyalty of his friends>. devotion stresses zeal and service amounting to self-dedication <a painter's devotion to her art>. piety stresses fidelity to obligations regarded as natural and fundamental <filial piety>.

Though they are not to associate anything with ALLAH, they are to be faithful to Muhammad, and take an oath of devotion. Sure sounds a lot like worship to me. Once in that relationship they actually expect Muhammad to pray for them.


As far as your complaints that one is calling on Mary in prayer, not so. It is actually a recital of the words of that the angel Gabriel himself used when greeting Mary:

Luke 1

26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

So, let us see that comparison again:
Catholics quote the words of scripture. Muslims quote the words of the Qur'an.
Catholics venerate a person, Mary. Muslims swear fealty to Muhammad.

Exactly what is your complaint again?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

I was browsing for a Catholic forum & ask them ; did not find any dialogue forum but found this.

Looks like not only Muslims , many Christians feel that Catholics are comtting blasphemy.

A Picture Says It All



by David Stewart

need a magnifying glass.............The picture to the left says it all, Jesus is barely visible…just as in the entire Catholic religion.

Mary is praised and mentioned hundreds of times more than the name of Jesus Christ ever is in the Catholic religion. Catholicism is Mary worship!

In a standard Rosary prayer, a Catholic will praise Mary 53 times (hail Mary’s).

Don’t tell me that Catholicism doesn’t worship Mary!!! The above photo says it all. Pope John Paul II worshiped Our Lady of Fatima (Mary) and not the Lord Jesus Christ.

http://onetruegod.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/a-picture-says-it-all/

 

[Keltoi]

There isn't much to that site except some anti-Catholic propoganda. It makes a couple of statements and shows some photographs. If you truly wish to find out the Catholic doctrine on this issue, ask a knowledgable Catholic as you first intended.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

If you truly wish to find out the Catholic doctrine on this issue, ask a knowledgable Catholic as you first intended.

ok , InshaAllah i will try to find a Catholic Muslim dialouge forum tomorrow. It's late here now.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/peace;



ok , InshaAllah i will try to find a Catholic Muslim dialouge forum tomorrow. It's late here now.

they are not hard to find:
Catholic Online Forum
Catholic Answers Forum

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

The concept of asking saints for intercession is not worship. It follows the same concept as asking someone else to pray for you. As Christians, or more specifically Catholics in this case, people who devoted their lives to Christ above and beyond the call of duty(saints) are not dead but have achieved eternal life in the light of God, therefor still able to pray for us. The fact that some Catholics appear to place too much emphasis on intercession with the saints is not a sign of Christian doctrine, but perhaps a lapse in personal judgement and understanding of Christian doctrine.

In Islaam, taking intermediaries between oneself and God is the very essence of polytheism as this was the very same belief that the pre-Islamic Arabs held with their idols. Any individual that reads the Qur'an will see clearly that this is the very shirk that is condemned throughout the Qur'an (along with other types of shirk as well). Islaam considers supplication to be the very essence of worship and it logically follows that if supplication is directed to any other than God, it violates the core of Islaam - Tawheed.

{And they worship other than God that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, "These are our intercessors with God" Say, "Do you inform God of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?" Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him}[Yunus; 18]

If you notice, the verse is equating 'they worship other than God' with their claim 'These are our intercessors with God', i.e. taking intercessors with God is equal to worshiping those whose intercession is being sought. Therefore, it is clear that Islamic theology regards these types of intercession as shirk. This argument of intercession that the polytheists put forward is replied to with: 'Will you inform God of what He does not already know?'. This goes hand in hand with the concept of not giving God his just estimate (which is mentioned twice in the Qur'an, refer to chapter 22, verse 74, and chapter 39, verse 67), i.e. if one were to truly understand the greatness, majesty, power, honor, sanctity of God he would not ascribe these petty lies to Him such as claiming He has need for intercessors or that He has a son or that He is more than one.

 

[Grace Seeker]

In Islaam, taking intermediaries between oneself and God is the very essence of polytheism as this was the very same belief that the pre-Islamic Arabs held with their idols. Any individual that reads the Qur'an will see clearly that this is the very shirk that is condemned throughout the Qur'an (along with other types of shirk as well). Islaam considers supplication to be the very essence of worship and it logically follows that if supplication is directed to any other than God, it violates the core of Islaam - Tawheed.

Given that, may I ask you (as I have Yusuf above) to reflect on the following:

O Prophet! When believing women come to thee to take the oath of fealty to thee, that they will not associate in worship any other thing whatever with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit adultery (or fornication), that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood, and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter,- then do thou [Muhammad] receive their fealty, and pray to Allah for the forgiveness (of their sins): for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

(Surah 60:12)​

Praying for another, specifically the forgiveness of that other person's sins, How is that not making intercession? And for these women to ask (i.e. supplicate) Muhammad to make this intercession for them, How is that not doing the very thing that you say is called shirk?

Mind you, personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with the practice as outlined in the Qur'an, but you have said that to make supplication (i.e. ask) of another -- exactly what these women are doing -- is the very essence of worship. Maybe it really isn't the very essence of worship after all? Maybe all it is is simply asking for assistance? That, too, I would suggest could be overdone, and perhaps there is too much attention given to that in Catholicism, after all God does not need us to use intermediaries; he can and does comes to us in his own right, and bids us likewise to approach him. But that would be a different issue, not the one under present discussion.

 

[Grace Seeker]

if one were to truly understand the greatness, majesty, power, honor, sanctity of God he would not ascribe these petty lies to Him such as claiming ... that He is more than one.

BTW, Christians do NOT claim that He is more than one. We boldly assert there is only one God, be it for Jews, Gentile, Christian, Muslim, or any other person on the face of the earth or any other life form scattered across the breadth of the entire cosmos. There is just one God:

Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. (Romans 3:29-30)