What Would Jesus (pbuh) Be?

[aadil77]

lol! thats the funniest thing ive read all day. are all you christians really living in this bubble of, do what you want cos were forgiven anyway ?

Its a bubble of 'salvation' to be specific. Then theres this other concept of everyone being a big happy family, plenty of love, embracing, everything is good, nothing is bad, sinners are good because by the time they've finished a certain sin they're already forgiven

 

[Supreme]

lol! thats the funniest thing ive read all day. are all you christians really living in this bubble of, do what you want cos were forgiven anyway ?

Er no, we just like to think our God is a loving, caring God. Which obviously seems a funny concept to you!

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Er no, we just like to think our God is a loving, caring God. Which obviously seems a funny concept to you!

This dogma is not only a denial of the Mercy of God but also of His Justice. To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others, whether the former is willing or not, is the height of injustice.

Firstly, it is not historically correct to say that Jesus had come to die willingly and deliberately for the sins of men. We read in the Bible that he did not wish to die on the cross. For, when he knew that his enemies were plotting against his life, he declared that his "soul was exceedingly sorrowful unto death", he asked his disciples to keep watch over him to protect him from his enemies and he prayed to God, "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee; take away this from me; nevertheless not what 1 will, but what Thou wilt." (Mark 14:36)

Secondly, we fail to see how the suffering and death of one man can wipe out the sins of others. It sounds something like the physician breaking his own head to cure the headache of his patients. The idea of substitutionary or vicarious sacrifice is illogical, meaningless and unjust.

Thirdly, the idea that shedding of blood is necessary to appease the Wrath of God has come into Christianity from the primitive man's image of God as an all-powerful demon. We see no connection at all between sin and blood. What is necessary to wash away sin is not blood but repentance, remorse, persistent struggle against evil inclinations, development of greater sympathy for mankind and determination to carry out the Will of God as revealed to us through the prophets. The Qur'an says:

"To God does not reach the flesh or the blood I of animals they sacrifice), but unto Him is acceptable righteousness on your part" (22:37)

 

[mkh4JC]

This dogma is not only a denial of the Mercy of God but also of His Justice. To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others, whether the former is willing or not, is the height of injustice.

It is actually not. What it reveals is that God is a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. On the cross these two extremes are met. The cross is perfect justice because God punishes sin to the fullest (Jesus bore God's wrath on the cross, for all of humanity's sin) and the cross is perfect mercy because God through the cross redeems all those who put their faith in Christ, liberating them from a life of bondage to sin.

Firstly, it is not historically correct to say that Jesus had come to die willingly and deliberately for the sins of men. We read in the Bible that he did not wish to die on the cross. For, when he knew that his enemies were plotting against his life, he declared that his "soul was exceedingly sorrowful unto death", he asked his disciples to keep watch over him to protect him from his enemies and he prayed to God, "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee; take away this from me; nevertheless not what 1 will, but what Thou wilt." (Mark 14:36)

And that was just an expression of Jesus' humanity. He was fully God, then he stepped out of eternity and entered into time, and added humanity to his divinity. The reason he said what he said is not because he would die on the cross, but because he would experience the wrath of God on the cross.

Secondly, we fail to see how the suffering and death of one man can wipe out the sins of others. It sounds something like the physician breaking his own head to cure the headache of his patients. The idea of substitutionary or vicarious sacrifice is illogical, meaningless and unjust.

You fail to see because you are yet dead in your trespasses and sins. The Bible teaches that man is born depraved, hopelessly lost in sin, and that because of this those who are in sin will think that the things of God are foolishness.

'For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destory the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

That no flesh should glory in his presence.' I Corinthians 1: 18-29.

Thirdly, the idea that shedding of blood is necessary to appease the Wrath of God has come into Christianity from the primitive man's image of God as an all-powerful demon. We see no connection at all between sin and blood. What is necessary to wash away sin is not blood but repentance, remorse, persistent struggle against evil inclinations, development of greater sympathy for mankind and determination to carry out the Will of God as revealed to us through the prophets. The Qur'an says:

As I said earlier, the cross will seem like foolishness to those who are dead in trespasses in sins. But in the Old Testament it was God who introduced blood sacrifice for the remission of sins, not just to the the Israelites, but to all people. Here's what's in Levitcus 17 verse 11:

'For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.'

What happend on the cross is that Jesus shed his blood (life) and bore all of humanity's sin debt. Because he lived the perfect life those who accept him are then delivered from all the things that they were bound with while they were in their sins, so that they can begin to live a life of holiness, and you also receive Christ's perfect righteousness, because God demands perfection from us.

What you need to understand is, that we are all born in sin and with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, God changes your nature, you are allowed to partake of his divine nature and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it. This is one of the major differences between Christianity and other religions.

 

[tango92]

you see if god forgives everything then why does the bible even acknowledge sin? the bible is essentially a christian book, if you guys are pre forgiven then why even make it a sin to be gay etc ?

after all gays arent hurting anyone right? so this is only a crime they commit against themselves and god, no need for justice here. why would an ALL loving god make someone feel bad for being gay?

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

It is actually not. What it reveals is that God is a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. On the cross these two extremes are met. The cross is perfect justice because God punishes sin to the fullest (Jesus bore God's wrath on the cross, for all of humanity's sin) and the cross is perfect mercy because God through the cross redeems all those who put their faith in Christ, liberating them from a life of bondage to sin.



And that was just an expression of Jesus' humanity. He was fully God, then he stepped out of eternity and entered into time, and added humanity to his divinity. The reason he said what he said is not because he would die on the cross, but because he would experience the wrath of God on the cross.



You fail to see because you are yet dead in your trespasses and sins. The Bible teaches that man is born depraved, hopelessly lost in sin, and that because of this those who are in sin will think that the things of God are foolishness.

'For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destory the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

That no flesh should glory in his presence.' I Corinthians 1: 18-29.



As I said earlier, the cross will seem like foolishness to those who are dead in trespasses in sins. But in the Old Testament it was God who introduced blood sacrifice for the remission of sins, not just to the the Israelites, but to all people. Here's what's in Levitcus 17 verse 11:

'For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.'

What happend on the cross is that Jesus shed his blood (life) and bore all of humanity's sin debt. Because he lived the perfect life those who accept him are then delivered from all the things that they were bound with while they were in their sins, so that they can begin to live a life of holiness, and you also receive Christ's perfect righteousness, because God demands perfection from us.

What you need to understand is, that we are all born in sin and with sin nature, a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. When you accept Christ, God changes your nature, you are allowed to partake of his divine nature and you can begin to live a supernatural life. It is natural to live a life a slave to sin, it is supernatural to be able to live above it. This is one of the major differences between Christianity and other religions.

So what is the fate of homosexual Christians and Christians who are rapists and murderers? Will they gain eternal salvation because they are believers in Christ?

 

[Supreme]

you see if god forgives everything then why does the bible even acknowledge sin? the bible is essentially a christian book, if you guys are pre forgiven then why even make it a sin to be gay etc ?

after all gays arent hurting anyone right? so this is only a crime they commit against themselves and god, no need for justice here. why would an ALL loving god make someone feel bad for being gay?

God doesn't forgive everything, He only forgives the sins of those who repent and accept Christ's sacrifice. Also, not everything is forgiven, as Jesus names the unforgivable sin:

30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

(Matthew 12:30-32)

It is also worth noting that even through Christ's sacrifice not everyone will be forgiven. God shall choose to forgive whomever He wants, however, by accepting salvation through Jesus, Christian theology suggests that one has a far greater chance of being forgiven.

This dogma is not only a denial of the Mercy of God but also of His Justice. To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others, whether the former is willing or not, is the height of injustice.

Firstly, it is not historically correct to say that Jesus had come to die willingly and deliberately for the sins of men. We read in the Bible that he did not wish to die on the cross. For, when he knew that his enemies were plotting against his life, he declared that his "soul was exceedingly sorrowful unto death", he asked his disciples to keep watch over him to protect him from his enemies and he prayed to God, "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto Thee; take away this from me; nevertheless not what 1 will, but what Thou wilt." (Mark 14:36)

Secondly, we fail to see how the suffering and death of one man can wipe out the sins of others. It sounds something like the physician breaking his own head to cure the headache of his patients. The idea of substitutionary or vicarious sacrifice is illogical, meaningless and unjust.

Thirdly, the idea that shedding of blood is necessary to appease the Wrath of God has come into Christianity from the primitive man's image of God as an all-powerful demon. We see no connection at all between sin and blood. What is necessary to wash away sin is not blood but repentance, remorse, persistent struggle against evil inclinations, development of greater sympathy for mankind and determination to carry out the Will of God as revealed to us through the prophets. The Qur'an says:

"To God does not reach the flesh or the blood I of animals they sacrifice), but unto Him is acceptable righteousness on your part" (22:37)

Sorry, I'm a little tired- exactly which part of this post relates to my claim that God is love?

 

[Grace Seeker]

lol! thats the funniest thing ive read all day. are all you christians really living in this bubble of, do what you want cos were forgiven anyway ?

No, we are not! It isn't that you can do whatever you want. Homosexual behavior is a sin (as is heterosexual behavior outside of marriage, coveting other people's possessions, not loving your neighbor, making anything or anyone of more importance than God in one's life, just to name a few). And unconfessed, unrepented sin leads to seperation from God. But we do believe that there is no sin (other than turning your back on God's offer of salvation itself) that cannot be forgiven. God is the reconciling business; he didn't send Jesus to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

 

[Danah]

No, you can't just believe in the New Testament and discount the Old Testament. You can't understand the New Testament without the Old. You wouldn't understand, for instance, the importance of blood sacrifice for the remission of sins, if you just read the New. Also, there are many prophecies concering the Jewish people, and how God would bring them back into the land of Israel (which he did and is doing) and concerning the time of the end, that have yet to be fulfilled, in the Old Testament. So as a Christian, yes you are supposed to take both the Old and New Testaments and stand on them as truth.

I was surprised by that too, as if they were picking what they like. It seems that this group is really existed but not recognized by the majority of the Christianity followers

Er no, we just like to think our God is a loving, caring God. Which obviously seems a funny concept to you!

Not funny but more like illogical to be more accurate. Just what kind of society we will be living in when we will know already that all our sins are forgiven, There will be nothing to prevent them from doing evil because they know that there sins will be forgiven.

 

[Supreme]

No, we are not! It isn't that you can do whatever you want. Homosexual behavior is a sin (as is heterosexual behavior outside of marriage, coveting other people's possessions, not loving your neighbor, making anything or anyone of more importance than God in one's life, just to name a few). And unconfessed, unrepented sin leads to seperation from God. But we do believe that there is no sin (other than turning your back on God's offer of salvation itself) that cannot be forgiven. God is the reconciling business; he didn't send Jesus to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

*Ahem*- just a minor correction- blasphemy against the Spirit is the unforgivable sin.

Not funny but more like illogical to be more accurate. Just what kind of society we will be living in when we will know already that all our sins are forgiven, There will be nothing to prevent them from doing evil because they know that there sins will be forgiven.

Christians don't do that either, because that would take the sacrifice of Jesus in vain. And God doesn't like His sacrifices being taken in vain very much.

 

[mkh4JC]

So what is the fate of homosexual Christians and Christians who are rapists and murderers? Will they gain eternal salvation because they are believers in Christ?

Well, here's what Paul said in Romans 6: 1-2.

'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?'

If you are a homosexual or a rapist, there is still hope for you in Christ. You don't have to live a lifestyle like that is what I am getting at. The question you seem to be asking is, can you be a Christian and live a life like a homosexual or rapist. Now, it's true that even Christians can fall back into sin after having been redeemed, but it is not possible to continue living in that kind of lifestyle after having known Christ, as God will discipline you and discipline you unto death if needs be.

What I am saying is, there is no such thing as a continually carnal (sinful) Christian.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

No, we are not! It isn't that you can do whatever you want. Homosexual behavior is a sin (as is heterosexual behavior outside of marriage, coveting other people's possessions, not loving your neighbor, making anything or anyone of more importance than God in one's life, just to name a few). And unconfessed, unrepented sin leads to seperation from God. But we do believe that there is no sin (other than turning your back on God's offer of salvation itself) that cannot be forgiven. God is the reconciling business; he didn't send Jesus to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

If the blood of God led to the atonement of sins then why is there any need to ask for forgiveness if the sin of man is already forgiven by the blood atonement of sins?

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

Well, here's what Paul said in Romans 6: 1-2.

'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?'

If you are a homosexual or a rapist, there is still hope for you in Christ. You don't have to live a lifestyle like that is what I am getting at. The question you seem to be asking is, can you be a Christian and live a life like a homosexual or rapist. Now, it's true that even Christians can fall back into sin after having been redeemed, but it is not possible to continue living in that kind of lifestyle after having known Christ, as God will discipline you and discipline you unto death if needs be.

What I am saying is, there is no such thing as a continually carnal (sinful) Christian.

If the rapist, homosexual or murderer died believers in Jesus then will they be saved?

 

[Grace Seeker]

you see if god forgives everything then why does the bible even acknowledge sin? the bible is essentially a christian book, if you guys are pre forgiven then why even make it a sin to be gay etc ?

after all gays arent hurting anyone right? so this is only a crime they commit against themselves and god, no need for justice here. why would an ALL loving god make someone feel bad for being gay?

Hey, guess what? You are "pre-forgiven" too. (Though I would have chosen a different term.) Jesus offering of his life is the guarantee of forgiveness of our sin and reconciliation with God for all who will enter into this new covenant relationship with humanity that God has made in Jesus Christ. The idea that one can save one's self by being good enough for God is a fallacy. If you're trying to do good works to make the scales of balance tip to your side you are going to live a life of frustration, because none of us are good enough for God, not even the total accumulation of all of humanities good works can atone for a single act of disobedience or self-absorbtion, two things which we are all from time to time guilty of. So, by our own merit, none of us, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, secular humanist can be saved, nor do we deserve it. It is available only as a gift, and that gift is offered to each and every one of us in and through the life of Jesus Christ. So, whether you accept it or not is up to you, but from God's perspective, we've all already been forgiven he's just waiting for us to realize it and then live out a life reflective of that in the way we relate to him and one another.

 

[tango92]

No, we are not! It isn't that you can do whatever you want. Homosexual behavior is a sin (as is heterosexual behavior outside of marriage, coveting other people's possessions, not loving your neighbor, making anything or anyone of more importance than God in one's life, just to name a few). And unconfessed, unrepented sin leads to seperation from God. But we do believe that there is no sin (other than turning your back on God's offer of salvation itself) that cannot be forgiven. God is the reconciling business; he didn't send Jesus to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

does repentance have to be genuine? or as long as you believe in jesus' crucifixion and repent anyhow your forgiven?

and see if a crime is commited against another human being (like assault), then how can it be just to the victim if the sinner is to just walk free even if hes genuinely sorry?


well thats a QFT if i ever saw one.
am i to understand from your edit that asking for forgiveness is not required. simply belief in the crucifixion of jesus ?

 

[mkh4JC]

If the rapist, homosexual or murderer died believers in Jesus then will they be saved?

Firstly, if someone who claims to be Christian does something to the extreme of murder then I question whether they were really saved to begin with, just based on how I know God works in the life of believers. And there are differing views from Christians on this issue. Some say if you fall into sin and never confess it that you can lose your salvation, others say that you are saved regardless, and that God will just end your life, since you refuse to be disciplined by him. I know from my own life that as a Christian if you sin God will chasten you sore for it, as when I first accepted Christ back in the summer of 2002 I sinned, and I have been suffering under God's discipline ever since. But in the book of Hebrews it is taught at the very least that if you won't live under the discipline that God has placed in your life that he will just end your life.

 

[Predator]

It is actually not. What it reveals is that God is a God of perfect justice and perfect mercy. On the cross these two extremes are met. The cross is perfect justice because God punishes sin to the fullest (Jesus bore God's wrath on the cross, for all of humanity's sin) and the cross is perfect mercy because God through the cross redeems all those who put their faith in Christ, liberating them from a life of bondage to sin.

And What kind of mercy and Justice is this , that he cant punish the sinners and he takes his own inncent Son and sacrifices him on the cross. Do you call that Justice ?

And No it sounds more like you are passed all your sins as if it were a blame to an innocent man as if he were a scapegoat , so that you can make things easy for yourself and do whatever you like when your bible says the opposite


Ezekiel 18:20

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die

We the Children of Adam will not be questioned , about why adam Adam committed a sin by eating the forbidden fruit and similarly Adam will not be questioned by God for the sins of his children- the gays, the murderers etc

And if you do good , u earn a reward and if you sin , u get punished if you dont repent .Its as simple as that

Thats is Islam and the same is stated by the Hindu law of Karma , no one pays for anybody sins and as Hamza said We read in the Bible that Jesus did not wish to die on the cross.and when he knew that his enemies were plotting against his life and he prayed to God to save him from the Death and angels had appeared strengthening him
.

Is this how Jesus prepares for suicide and sacrifice ?

 

[Grace Seeker]

There will be nothing to prevent them from doing evil because they know that there sins will be forgiven.

Sure there is. People who have experienced God's forgiving love are called to a new way of living that is holy as he is holy and that expresses the love he has for the world to others. Christians are not free to continue sinning.

 

[Grace Seeker]

*Ahem*- just a minor correction- blasphemy against the Spirit is the unforgivable sin.

And when one remembers that the work of the Holy Spirit is to lead people into a relationship with God in Jesus Christ, that sin results in exactly what I described -- turning one's back on God's offer of salvation. That is why the act of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is called the unforgivable sin, because of the natural consequences which occur when one is committing it.

 

[Grace Seeker]

If the blood of God led to the atonement of sins then why is there any need to ask for forgiveness if the sin of man is already forgiven by the blood atonement of sins?

Because the new covenant is not some magic act. Christ's offering is universal in nature, available to all, but God does not run roughshod over people. People voluntarily enter into this new covenant that God makes with us. So, it isn't so much that we are asking for forgiveness (though that might be how some people express themselves), but that we confess that we are sinners and need to change. That means repentance, which is much more than just confession or asking for forgiveness, repentance also means a change in direction. In other words, we begin to live new lives. Not in our own power, because again we would fail, but in the power of God who makes himself available to help us live lives submitted to him through the presence of his indwelling Holy Spirit (which gets back to what both Supreme and I were talking about in terms of the important place of the Holy Spirit in our salvation experience).