What Would Jesus (pbuh) Be?

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And What kind of mercy and Justice is this , that he cant punish the sinners and he takes his own inncent Son and sacrifices him on the cross. Do you call that Justice ?

Not only would I call it justice, I would also call it admirable. If I had one child whom I loved more than anything, yet had to sacrifice him for the wellbeing and good future of every soul on Earth, I for one would not do it. But God did it. What an admirable, enviable, great God.
 
People who have experienced God's forgiving love are called to a new way of living that is holy as he is holy and that expresses the love he has for the world to others.
That's nicely put, Grace Seeker. :statisfie
Nothing else left to say, really.
 
Not only would I call it justice, I would also call it admirable. If I had one child whom I loved more than anything, yet had to sacrifice him for the wellbeing and good future of every soul on Earth, I for one would not do it. But God did it. What an admirable, enviable, great God.

The doctrine of the Atonement makes the First Person of Godhead into a blood-thirsty tyrant in order to demonstrate the self-sacrificing love of the Second Person. To a dispassionate critic, the sacrifice of the Second Person appears as much misplaced and meaningless as the demand of the First Person is cruel and sadistic.

Arthur Weigall makes the following significant comment on the doctrine of the Atonement:

"We can no longer accept the appalling theological doctrine that for some mystic reason a propitiatory sacrifice was necessary. It outrages either our conception of God as Almighty or else our conception of Him as All-Loving.

The famous Dr. Cruden believed that for the : purpose of this sacrifice 'Christ suffered dreadful pains inflicted by God', and this of course, is a standpoint which nauseates the modem mind and which may well be termed a hideous doctrine, not unconnected with the sadistic tendencies of primitive human nature. Actually, it is of pagan origin, being, indeed, perhaps the most obvious relic of heathendom in the Faith."


The Christian scheme of salvation is not only morally and rationally unsound, but also has no support of the words of Jesus. Jesus may be said to have suffered for the sins of men in the sense that, in order to take them out of darkness into light, he incurred the wrath of the evildoers and was tortured by them; but that does not mean that his death was an atonement for the sins of others and that only those who believe in his blood would be forgiven.

Jesus had come to rescue men from sin by his teaching and the example of his religiously devoted life to the commands of God, and not by deliberately dying for them on the cross and offering his blood as a propitiation for their sins. When a young man came and asked him "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" he mentioned nothing about his atoning sacrifice and the redeeming power of Iris blood. His reply was the same as that of every other prophet. For he said: "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God; but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
(Matthew 19:17)

"Keep the commandments" that, according to Jesus, was the way to eternal life. Salvation could be gained by believing in God, eschewing evil and doing good, and not by accepting Jesus as the redeemer and believing in his blood atonement.
 
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see if a crime is commited against another human being (like assault), then how can it be just to the victim if the sinner is to just walk free even if hes genuinely sorry?
 
What an admirable, enviable, great God.

Yeah an unjust God , do u call that Love , killing an innocent Man?

Someone murders your wife and daughter , parents, , destroys your home and what would you do , instead of punishing the evil doers , and you Go kill your own son , does that make any sense
 
Yeah an unjust God , do u call that Love , killing an innocent Man?

Yes, I call that love. I couldn't think of a more loving act. It is as Jesus defined love:

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command.

(John 15:13-14)

If this is how we define love, God gave up His life on Earth for His friends (ie followers) out of love. So yes, I could not imagine a more loving act, certainly there could be no sign of greater love.
 
If this is how we define love, God gave up His life on Earth for His friends (ie followers) out of love. So yes, I could not imagine a more loving act, certainly there could be no sign of greater love.

Why does God need to come to the earth to atone the sins of his own creations? That is a pagan belief as is the trinity.

God is beyond needing to kill himself so that his own creations can be free of sin. No man is free of sin. If man is sinful by nature then how can atonement alone free him from sin?

Why does God need to be born a human out of a women and be suckled and excrete and eat and drink in order to survive and procreate. These are human attributes and God is beyond the attributes given to a human.

Why lower God? He is too high to be lowered like this! These were NEVER beliefs that Jesus taught for those after him twisted his message and words as was described in the Dideche.

Why does a price have to be paid for? Why can't we just repent and have God forgive us for our sins just like how Jesus taught in Matthew 6:12?

Humans are sinning against God, so God becomes a human being and then punishes himself because of what we did? There is no logic to this what so ever.

God does not need to become a human being in order to show us how to live. This is why he sends down messengers because that is their job.
 
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does repentance have to be genuine? or as long as you believe in jesus' crucifixion and repent anyhow your forgiven?

and see if a crime is commited against another human being (like assault), then how can it be just to the victim if the sinner is to just walk free even if hes genuinely sorry?


well thats a QFT if i ever saw one.
am i to understand from your edit that asking for forgiveness is not required. simply belief in the crucifixion of jesus ?

I don't know what you mean by QFT, so I can't speak to that.

If you understand "belief" as some sort of head knowledge, then the answer is NO. I'm sure that Pontius Pilate believed in the crucifixion of Jesus. So, that is not what we mean. Belief is an attitude of trust, and that requires living in a relationship. In relationship things must indeed be genuine. We mean that you have to trust in the efficacy of what Christ did, that in Christ God is acting to create a new way of living. And then if one enters into that new way, it will of course be expressed in one's life. The key is that one lives out this new relationship that one has with God in and through Jesus Christ. It finds experssion in all that one does.

(Those who don't like long answers should stop right here, because it is going to get long and involved.)


The key is that one lives out this new relationship that one has with God in and through Jesus Christ. It finds experssion in all that one does. One recognizes that "God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36). This statement declares several things, but chief among them is that we recognize Jesus as Lord. This is a term that as used in this context was a direct confrontation with the empirial concept that Ceasar was "Lord of all."

The proclamation of Jesus as the Christ is to say that he is the Jewish Messiah who brings in the culmination of a new eschatological era in which God is going to set all things right. The proclamation of him as Lord is to say that Ceasar is NOT Lord. Ceasar in NOT in control of this world. God is in control. And in Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, we have one who has come to reorder the systems of this world into one that reflects not the petty squabblings of people, each bent on their own various agendas, desires, and even vices. But rather we are called to live lives that give evidence of lives that place God at the pinnacle of all we give allegiance to and all we seek. God grants that when we make Jesus #1 in our lives that he receives it as making him #1.

Because we are united to one another in God through Jesus, there are to be no more divisions between us based on things like age, sex, nationality, ethnicity, or (dare I say) even creed. God is claiming all of us, whether we like it or not. Make something else in your life more important than your allegiance to God and his claims on your life (in Islamic terms, be unsubmissive) and you are resisting not just the law of God, but God himself. Those who resist are in a state of rebellion, and such rebellion will be dealt with as all rebels have always been dealt with. But lay down your arms, quit being in rebellion, and there is a place for you.

Now, what you mention about the injustice of God forgiving what I have done to another is a good question. But we have to begin by remembering that any injustice done to another person is once again evidence of our rebellion against God. We need to quit that status. AND we also need to go and seek reconcilation with those that we have hurt along the way. In our human relationship this might require reparations or even more. But in terms of our relationship with God, it means we need to get back on track with doing the right thing AND doing it for the right reason.

Curiously, despite the preaching of many evangelists, that reason is not to selfishly seek our own salvation (that is a consequence of doing the right thing, but it should not be the motivation for it); the reason we do the right thing is to glorify God and lift up his name. As we live lives fully submitted to God and his will, we bring glory to him. He is the be all and end all and ultimately the only reason for our existence. We should never make salvation about us, but should make it about God. Only when we honor and serve him, and truly live with him as the one and only LORD of our lives, can we say that we are living in the relationship with him that he wants to have with us.

So, that precludes the conditions that you speak of where a person decides that they shall "believe in Jesus" and then go about doing whatever they want. Such a person is fooling themselves. He/she is NOT a Christian. Of course, even those who truly desire to live the godly life connected with God through Christ are going to stumble and fall. It is with regard to these people that have a heart set for God, but that still find themselves not perfectly living the holy and righteous life that God calls us to, that we remember that Christ died for all of our sins. So, we remember that we are forgiven (pre-forgiven if you want), confess our sins, and repent by returning back to living holy lives offered to God. But this in no way should be understood as a license to sin, for every sin is grevious to God and is the moral equivalent of crucifiying Christ again. Christians need to understand that while God's grace is freely available to us, the act of making it available to us cost him dearly. We, therefore, cannot live as if are free to do whatever we want, for that would be to deny that Christ is indeed Lord of our lives.
 
see if a crime is commited against another human being (like assault), then how can it be just to the victim if the sinner is to just walk free even if hes genuinely sorry?

If I am understanding you aright, as I said, if you are Christian and you sin then you will pay for it. Here's what's in scripture:

'For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chasteneing, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye *******s, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6-11.

So you can't get away from sinning as a Christian without being corrected or chastened sore for it.
 
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So, that precludes the conditions that you speak of where a person decides that they shall "believe in Jesus" and then go about doing whatever they want. Such a person is fooling themselves. He/she is NOT a Christian. Of course, even those who truly desire to live the godly life connected with God through Christ are going to stumble and fall. It is with regard to these people that have a heart set for God, but that still find themselves not perfectly living the holy and righteous life that God calls us to, that we remember that Christ died for all of our sins. So, we remember that we are forgiven (pre-forgiven if you want), confess our sins, and repent by returning back to living holy lives offered to God. But this in no way should be understood as a license to sin, for every sin is grevious to God and is the moral equivalent of crucifiying Christ again. Christians need to understand that while God's grace is freely available to us, the act of making it available to us cost him dearly. We, therefore, cannot live as if are free to do whatever we want, for that would be to deny that Christ is indeed Lord of our lives.

very good. thats a more convincing answer. but still you did not respond to my previous question

if a crime is commited against another human being (like assault), then how can it be just to the victim if the sinner is to just walk free even if hes genuinely sorry and a true christian believer?
 
So you can't get away from sinning as a Christian without being corrected or chastened sore for it.

now were getting somewhere. there are crimes you can commit in this world which cant be payed back i this life.

the prime example being hitler who killed over 6 million jews.

even if hitler was a true christian believer and was genuinely sorry (im not saying he was) how can any punishment in this life be equivalent to the murder of 6 million. at most you can kill him once
 
The doctrine of the Atonement makes the First Person of Godhead into a blood-thirsty tyrant in order to demonstrate the self-sacrificing love of the Second Person. To a dispassionate critic, the sacrifice of the Second Person appears as much misplaced and meaningless as the demand of the First Person is cruel and sadistic.

You understand that there are many different understandings in Christian circles with regard to this "doctrine of the Atonement". It is not a monolithic idea. That which you have objected to is also objected to by many Christians as well. For a broader treatment of the idea, one in which other understandings will be presented and those who hold to what you object to enter into dialogue with them, I recommend a book: The Atonement Debate: Papers from the London Symposium on the Theology of Atonement, published by Zondervan, c. 2008. Alternately, David Bronods' book, Salvation and the Cross traces some of the major epocal movements with regard to view of the atonement over the course of first Biblical and then Christian history.
 
if a crime is commited against another human being (like assault), then how can it be just to the victim if the sinner is to just walk free even if hes genuinely sorry and a true christian believer?

Contained within my rather large post above is this statement:
Now, what you mention about the injustice of God forgiving what I have done to another is a good question. But we have to begin by remembering that any injustice done to another person is once again evidence of our rebellion against God. We need to quit that status. AND we also need to go and seek reconcilation with those that we have hurt along the way. In our human relationship this might require reparations or even more. But in terms of our relationship with God, it means we need to get back on track with doing the right thing AND doing it for the right reason.
It may not be entirely satisfactory as an answer to your question, but it is all I have time for at the moment. Forgive me, as I must run off to tend to other things.
 
now were getting somewhere. there are crimes you can commit in this world which cant be payed back i this life.

the prime example being hitler who killed over 6 million jews.

even if hitler was a true christian believer and was genuinely sorry (im not saying he was) how can any punishment in this life be equivalent to the murder of 6 million. at most you can kill him once

Hitler was not a Christian, he was possessed of the devil and an occultist. The thing is, you cannot become a Christian and then live any old kind of lifestyle that you want because you are now Christian, because Jesus died for your sins. If you do so, if you 'convert' and begin doing so, then that is evidence that you were never saved to begin with.

And as I said earlier, if you will not be disciplined by God then he will just end your life. I don't know if that means you lose your salvation or not, but I know for sure that you will lose your life.
 
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Why does God need to come to the earth to atone the sins of his own creations?

Why does God need to create Earth and the Universe to glorify Himself? Why does God send to prophets in order so that more people can worship Him? Why does God need the human race? Why does God need to be worshipped? Why does God allow disbelief? Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? The point is, we can sit here and question God and His plans all day if need be, but we're going to be no more intelligent than before.

That is a pagan belief as is the trinity.
To be fair, I don't know of any pagans who believe God was sent down into creation to atone for sins, and it is nothing to do with the Trinity!

Why lower God? He is too high to be lowered like this! These were NEVER beliefs that Jesus taught for those after him twisted his message and words as was described in the Dideche.

11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Matthew 23:11-12

Humans are sinning against God, so God becomes a human being and then punishes himself because of what we did? There is no logic to this what so ever.

Wait, religion's about logic know? A skygod creates a planet and demands to be worshipped? Where's the any logic in that? There isn't, logic is for science, faith is for religion.

God does not need to become a human being in order to show us how to live. This is why he sends down messengers because that is their job.

This is in explained the Parable of the Tenants, as to why a prophet was no longer sufficient:

9He went on to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
13"Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.'

14"But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"

(Luke 20:9-16)
 
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The dogma of the Atonement is unsound, for (1) man is not born in sin. (2) God does not require a price to forgive the sinners, and (3) the idea of substitutionary or vicarious sacrifice is unjust and cruel. By sinning we do not harm God, but ourselves.

The stain of sin on our souls can be red, not by the suffering or death of any other person, whether the latter be willing or unwilling, but by our own repentance, turning away from evil and doing good. And so, when Adam, after the act of disobedience, repented and submitted himself completely to God, his sin was forgiven. Neither is the sin of Adam inherited by the children of Adam, nor did it require the suffering and death of Jesus Christ to be forgiven. The truth is that Jesus did not die on the cross at all.

The doctrine of the Atonement is a denial of the Justice and Mercy of God. Islam rejects this dogma. It declares that the forgiveness of sins cannot be obtained by the suffering and sacrifice of any other person, human or divine, but by the Grace of God and our own sincere and persistent efforts to fight against evil and do good:

(that no laden one shall bear another's load, and that man hath only that for which he maketh effort, and that his effort will be seen)
(The Glorious Qur'un 53:38,40)

(Whosoever goeth right, it is only for the good of his own soul that he goeth right, and whosoever erreth, erreth only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load) (17:15)
 
The dogma of the Atonement is unsound, for (1) man is not born in sin. (2) God does not require a price to forgive the sinners, and (3) the idea of substitutionary or vicarious sacrifice is unjust and cruel. By sinning we do not harm God, but ourselves.

Man is born in sin and completely opposed to Holy God. God is All Holy and there is no darkness in him. Man is fallen and depraved and there is nothing good about him. Apart from Christ there is no righteousness in man.

The best way I can describe sin nature or the fact that we are all born in sin is to say that sin nature is a natural inclination to do that which is wrong. Sinning for the sinner comes naturally, they are hopelessly lost in their sin and can do nothing but sin. When a sinner for instance tells a lie, they don't really think about what they are doing, it just comes naturally. How about the fact that you don't have to teach a young child how to lie, or how to steal, or how to disobey their parents. Why is that? Because we all are born in sin and have sin nature.

The thing is, when you become Christian, God gives you a new nature, you are allowed to partake of Christ's divine nature and you can begin to live a supernatural life. There are only two kinds of people in this world, those who are dead to sin (Christians) and those who are dead in their sins (sinners).

Neither is the sin of Adam inherited by the children of Adam, nor did it require the suffering and death of Jesus Christ to be forgiven.

No one will be punished for the sins of Adam. The Bible says that we as human beings have not sinned after the similtude (or likeness) of Adam's transgression. We were not in the garden and tempted by the devil is what I'm trying to get at. But the Bible also teaches that by one mans transgression or disobedience (Adam's) death and sin entered into the world. And so all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. I don't have an answer as to why God allowed the devil to tempt Eve and thus bring about the Fall. All I know is that God is not like us and he has a purpose in everything he does and allows.
 
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All I know is that God is not like us and he has a purpose in everything he does and allows.


Riiiggghhttt...... just a moment ago I swear I heard christians say that Jesus pbuh was god. And Jesus pbuh was certainly very much like a man.
 
Back on topic..

Had jesus pbuh lived among us today, he would refuse to eat meat dishes prepared by christians, because he would be concerned that the dish contained pork.

Shouldn't christians be concerned that a person they love and worship refuse to eat the dish they prepare?
 

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