What Would Jesus (pbuh) Be?

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Jesus pbuh and pray:

How did Jesus (P.B.U.H) Pray? Print E-mail

How did Jesus (Peace and Blessing be Upon Him) pray?

Some of you may be wondering, “How did Jesus pray?” Below are a few events and times that the Bible describes Jesus praying to His Father in Heaven.

Jesus prayed for guidance in places of quiet solitude - “Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed” (Mark 1:35)

“But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed” (Luke 5:16).

Jesus prayed in a posture and with an attitude of reverent submission - “Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will’” (Matthew 26:39).

See how Muslims Pray.

Prayers-
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What did disciples say about Jesus: "What did they see in his life that wrung this cry from their hearts?" What was it that impressed them as they watched Jesus pray and convinced them that his prayer life and his amazing power and wisdom were somehow together?

They saw first of all that, with Jesus, prayer was a necessity. It was more than an occasional practice on his part, it was a lifelong habit. It was an attitude of mind and heart. It was an atmosphere in which he lived, it was the very air he breathed. Everything he did arose out of prayer

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http://www.findingtruth.net/index.p...y&catid=37:general-articles&Itemid=68&lang=en
 
naidamar,

These verses show that Jesus valued prayer and fasting, and I agree entirely. But I am looking for verses which show that Jesus taught regular daily prayers (say, 5 times a day) and annual fasting (for a month). There reason I'm asking for this is simple: unless you can establish that Jesus prayed and fasted in a distinctly Islamic way, there is no way to distinguish (at least using your criteria) whether Jesus was a Jew or a Muslim. In order to show that he was a Muslim, you're going to have to come up with a criterion that doesn't also apply to Jews.
 
Is Jesus really a Muslim? »Jesus is a Muslim

Luke 6:40 (KJV)
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Read it in the language of Jesus

“Ein talmeed na’leh ‘al rabbo; shekken kal adam she’MUSHLAM yihyeh k’rabbo.”

“No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher.”

Jesus taught to rinse before Praying as Muslims do {John 13:10}

Jesus bowed down in Submission on the Ground to God as Muslims do {Matthew 26:39}

Jesus said, all of You who Submit your will to God, are my true Brothers and Sisters (Mark 3:31-35) as Muslims do

Jesus taught Salvation comes from Submitting your will to God and Faith as Muslims do .

(Matthew 7:21-23) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

Behold my servant(Jesus), whom I(God) have chosen.”-
[Matthew 12:18]

“The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, hath glorified his servant Jesus.”-
[Acts 3:13] (RSV)

“For of a truth against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou hast anointed….”-
[Acts 4:27] (RSV)

“Say He is God, the One and Only God, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him!”
Qur’an112:1-4

“So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again) “Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is.”-
Quran -19:33-35

CHASTITY BEFORE MARRIAGE AND LOYALTY AFTER MARRIAGE AND SIMILITUDE WITH MOTHER MARY(PBUH)

Our beloved last Prophet Muhammad, has said
“Mary is the leader of all the women of the world, in paradise and heaven.”

Mary was a pure and chaste virgin. Her body was the temple of God, not a fleshly plaything. In our day, promiscuity and prostitution and premarital intercourse are reaching proportions that are almost unbelievable. Thousands of people in America have moral standards about like those of an alley cat.The students heard that the Muslim tradition of modest dress and of women covering their hair comes from the example Mary set with her chastity. Michigan Catholic (Sep29,2006,p.10) says”girls wore headscarves and leggings for their legs,to comply with Muslim standards of modesty

” ‘And every woman who prays or prophesies with her hair uncovered dishonors her hair – it is just as though her hair were shave(Corinthians 11:4-10) First Thessalonians 4:3-5 says, “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from fornication; that each one you know how to control your own body in holiness and honor, not with lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God.

http://www.brfwitness.org /Articles/2000v35n6.htm St. Tertullian (the first man to formulate the Trinity), in his treatise, On the Veiling of Virgins, even obliged its use at home: ‘Young women, you wear you veils out on the streets, so you should wear them in the church; you wear them when you are among strangers, then wear them among your brothers.’ So Islam didn’t invent the veil, it merely clarifies that it is simply a sign of faith, modesty and chastity which serves to protect the devout from molestation.

O Prophet! Tell you wives and daughters and the believing women that they should case their cloaks over their bodies (when outdoors) so that they be recognized as such (decent, and chaste believers) and not molested.
The Holy Qur’an,

MUSLIM GREETS LIKE JESUS(PBUH)

In ancient times, the prophets of God including Moses, Joseph, David, Jesus, the angles of God and many others have made it their custom to greet the believers with the words ” Peace be unto you”.
Can anyone guess what Muhammad taught his followers to say when greeting each other or departing from each other? You guessed it! “Assalam alaikum” or “Peace be unto you .”
Have you ever met a Christian who greets others with the words of Jesus: “Peace be unto you” or departs with those words? Genesis 43:23 “And he said, Peace be to you, fear not: your God, and the God of your father, hath given you treasure in your sacks: I had your money. And he brought Simeon out unto them.”
Judges 6:23

“And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.”
1 Samuel 25:6

“And thus shall ye say to him that liveth in prosperity, Peace be both to thee, and peace be to thine house, and peace be unto all that thou hast.”
Numbers 6:26

“The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.”
1 Samuel 1:17

“Then Eli answered and said, Go in peace”
Luke 24:36

“And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.”
John 20:19

“came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.”
John 20:26

“.then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.”
Luke 10:5

“And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say,Peace be to this house.”

Can anyone guess what Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) taught his followers to say when greeting each other or departing from each other? You guessed it! “Assalam alaikum” or ” Peace be unto you.” Have you ever met a Christian who greets others with the words of Jesus: “Peace be unto you” or departs with those words?

MUSLIM PROSTRATE TO GOD LIKE JESUS(PBUH)

When a prays or thanks God he does so in same fashion that was taught to Abraham, Moses, Jesus(pbut)& all of prophets of Allah.You will find that when a Muslim prays he places his forehead on the ground in total submission to God Almighty. Let us see how the prophetsprayed.

Genesis 17:3 “And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,”

Genesis 17:17 “Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?”

Exodus 34:8 “And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.”

Numbers 16:20-22 “And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?”

Joshua 5:14 “And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?”

Ezekiel 9:8 “And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?”

2 Chronicles 20:18 “And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the LORD, worshipping the LORD.”

Ezekiel 11:13 “Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel?” Matthew

17:6 “And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.”

Matthew 26:39 “And he ( Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass f

MUSLIM BELIEVE THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDES GOD

I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
(Isaiah 43:11)

Yet I [am] the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for [there is] no saviour beside me.
(Hosea 13:4)

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
(Luke 1:47)

These verses refute the Christian phrase “Jesus is my lord and saviour”. There is no Saviour besides Yahweh! Jesus never claimed to be “Lord and Saviour” to the Jews. He explicitly said “I do not accept praise from men” (John 5:41)

“In vain do they worship me” (Matthew 15:9, Mark 7:7) and “The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) etc.

A TRUE MUSLIMS WILL NEVER TOUCH WINE/Gambling

“Do not drink wine nor strong drink
(Leviticus 10:9)

“Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
(Proverbs 20:1)

“*****dom and wine and new wine take away the heart.
(Hosea 4:11)

“Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
(Romans 13:13)

“Since an overseer is entrusted with God’s work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.
(Titus 1:7)

Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover
of money.
(1Timothy 3:2-3)

Gambling prohibited in bible

“He that hastens to be rich hath an evil eye, and considers not that poverty shall come upon him.”
Proverbs 28:22

The Holy Quran, 5.90:
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan’s handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

ONLY MUSLIMS CALL FOR PRAYER THROUGH AZAAN

“And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, make thee two trumpets of silver.. that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly.. And when they shall blow whit them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.”-(NUMBERS 10:1-3).

MUSLIMS COME TO THE MOSQUE IN BARE FEET

the faithful come to the mosque and take off their shoes so that they may enter the house of worship in bare feet…

“When he came to the Fire, a voice was uttered: O Moses! I am thy Lord, therefore put off thy shoes, for thou art in the sacred valley of Tuwa.”-
(HOLY QURAN 20:11-12).

(And God said to Moses), “Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”-
(EXODUS 3:5, also ACTS 7:33).

MUSLIMS MAKE ABULTION BEFORE PRAYERS, WASHING THEIR FACES, HANDS AND FEET

“And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet thereat; when they went into tent of the conregation they washed as the Lord commanded Moses.”-
(EXODUS 40:31-32).

“Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple…”-
(ACTS 21:26)

“O you who belive! When you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads, and wash your feet to the ankles.”-(HOLY QURAN 5:7)

MUSLIMS FACE THAT GREAT MOSQUE IN MECCA WHILE PRAYING

“So turn thy face toward the Sacred Mosque, and (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your faces toward it.”-
(HOLY QURAN 2:144).

“Now when Daniel…went into his house; and his window being open in his chamber towards Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.”-
(DANIEL 6:10)


MUSLIMS DONT KEEP IMAGES OF ANY PROPHET IN MOSQUE/HOME

The MUSLIM MOSQUE/HOME is a place of peace and serenity, without images or idols of worship, and simple, with a carpet on which to stand or sit, and meditate. “God forgiveth not (the sin of) joining other gods with Him;…one who joins other gods with God, hath strayed far, far away (from the Right).”-
(HOLY QURAN 4:116).

“I am the Lord thy God…Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them.”-
(THE FIRST COMMANDMENT, EXODUS 20:2-5).

MUSLIMS REJECT EATING PORK

“And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you”….” Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you.” [Leviticus 11:7-8]

“And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass.”[Deuteronomy 14:8]

“Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah.”[Al-Qur'an 5:3]

ONLY MUSLIMS BLESS PROPHET ABRAHAM AND THE PEOPLE OF PROPHET ABRAHAM FIVE TIMES A DAY

Do you KNOW Every time we pray and prostrate to God 5 time a Day, we end our prayer by sitting on our knees and say the following exact quote:


“..and bless Prophet Muhammad and his people,like You blessed Prophet Abraham and his people”

Genesis 12:1-31

The LORD had said to Abraham, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you.

2 “I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.

3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

The quote “I will make you into a great nation” is quite interesting. How can GOD Almighty call the Muslims, who came from Ishmael, a “great nation” if they are as the modern Christians of today consider them to be “Satan’s followers”? How can we be a “great nation” in the eyes of GOD Almighty if we are hated by Him? How can the Muslims be cursed and considered satan followers when GOD Almighty in Genesis 12:3 blesses them because they bless Abraham? How can the Muslims be cursed by GOD Almighty when they bow down to Him and only Him in prostration? can the Muslims be cursed by GOD Almighty when they bow down to Him and only Him in prostration?

ONLY MUSLIMS SEND PEACE TO THE ANGELS ON OUR SHOULDERS

To conclude the prayer, the Muslim turns their face first toward his right shoulder and then toward his left shoulder, each time saying the taslim (salutation) to the (right shoulder) angel that takes notes of your good deeds and (left shoulder) angel that takes notes of your evil deeds:

“Peace be on you and the mercy of God. (But verily, over you (are appointed angels in charge of mankind) to watch you, Kiraman (Honorable) Katibin – writing down (your deeds), they know all that you do.) QURAN (82:10-12)

Remember) that the two receivers (recording angels) receive (each human being),one sitting on the right and one on left (to note his or her actions.Not a word does he (or she) utter but there is a watcher by him ready (to record it).) (50:17-18)

So whosoever does good equal to the weight of a speck of dust shall see it.And whosoever does evil equal to the weight of a speck of dust shall see it.)(99:7-8).
 
“Ein talmeed na’leh ‘al rabbo; shekken kal adam she’MUSHLAM yihyeh k’rabbo.”

“No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher.”
I don't know what your mother tongue is, but based on your past postings I'm fairly certain that you speak more than one language. So, certainly you've come across false cognates in the process. In this case you've reversed translated out of the recorded Greek into Aramaic in order to compare it with English. Can you illustrate that beyond having a similar sound that there is indeed a connection between your suspicions that these were Jesus' words (an interesting assumption by the way, since you've previously proposed that the Bible is corrupted and not to be trusted) "MUSHLAM" and "Muslim"?

But I actually question that you have even translated the text correctly into Arabic. The verse in question, before being translated into English, reads: "ουκ εστιν μαθητης υπερ τον διδασκαλον κατηρτισμενος δε πας εσται ως ο διδασκαλος αυτου" with the key term being "κατηρτισμενος" (a derivative of katartizo, meaning to make fit and can be used in a figurative way meaning to make perfect, hence the English translation that you find.

If you are suggesting that one can reverse translate the word karatizo back into Aramaic to "MUSHLAM" which then has as its direct equivalent the Arabic term "Muslim", it should then hold true for all the other times that the term karatizo is used in the New Testament. Following your methodology would produce the following verses:

Matthew 4:21 -- "Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, MUSLIMING their nets."

Matthew 21:16 -- "From the lips of children and infants you have MUSLIMED praise?"

Mark 1:19 -- "When he had gone a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John in a boat, MUSLIMING their nets."

Romans 9:22 -- "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—MUSLIMED for destruction?"

1 Corinthians 1:10 -- "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be MUSLIMLY united in mind and thought."

2 Corinthians 13:11 -- "Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for MUSLIM, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you."

1 Thessalonians 3:10 -- "Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might MUSLIM that which is lacking in your faith."

Hebrews 10:5 -- "Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: 'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you MUSLIMED for me.' "

Hebrews 11:3 -- "By faith we understand that the universe was MUSLIMED at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

Hebrews 13:20-21 -- "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, (MAKE) MUSLIM you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 5:10 -- And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself MUSLIM you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.


Now, you will notice that I included both passages like Hebrews 13 that really go along with what you are saying as much as I did those like those found in Matthew, Mark, and Romans where the concept doesn't fit at all. So, I am not just rejecting your thesis out of hand, but I need you to do more than just a little word play to show me that it actually applies specifically to the passage in Luke. After all, to be a Muslim is to live a life of submission to God, so it is no surprise that a passage in Luke that is talking about discipleship (i.e. a life of submisive following of one's teacher) should have some similar connotations. But it doesn't follow that Jesus is calling all people to be Muslims with the same meaning that you apply to it today.

When one takes a look at how Jews of Jesus' day actually understood the term "katartizo," it's Hebrew equivalents were many: most commonly "to complete", but also to equip, to restore, to make, to establish. Only once was I able to find something that fit with what it means to be a Muslim and that case katartizo is used of the righteous man's steps to hold fast to Yahweh's paths.

So, there is a possiblity, but we need more data. Until such time as you are able to produce it, I'm going to stay with the work of scholars who have rendered the passage variously:

"The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect(ed) shall be as his master." -- KJV, ASV, Youngs, Darby, Wycliffe

"A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher." -- NIV, NLT, CEV, NASB

"Students are not better than their teachers. But everyone who is completely trained will be like his teacher." NIRV

"A disciple is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully qualified will be like the teacher." -- NRSV
 
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Jesus pbuh would wage war against the church for putting endless likeness of his ownself (often half-naked) in churches whose people worship and pray to.
 
It is indeed staggering that christians would rather follow Paul's dreams instead of commandments from Jesus pbuh.
And it is even more staggering that christians call Islam the religion of satan, while in fact it is the muslims who believe in what Jesus pbuh believed, who practise what Jesus pbuh practised.
It's almost like christians only borrow the name and (supposedly) image of Jesus pbuh for a religion that is now strayed very far from Jesus pbuh teachings.
 
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In effect, for current christians, formerly pagan practises that have been "christianised" are more important to follow and believe in than God's laws and commands (which were swept away by Paul's dreams).
 
In effect, for current christians, formerly pagan practises that have been "christianised" are more important to follow and believe in than God's laws and commands (which were swept away by Paul's dreams).

Name one bit of Torah that Paul told Jewish Christians were not to be followed?
 
The systematic destruction of the law of Jesus

Jesus (pbuh) was a very devout Jew. No Jew could ever raise a finger at him and say why do you not observe the Sabbath? Why do you eat pork? Indeed, it is the apostles of Jesus and not Jesus himself who are depicted in the NT as violating the law. The Bible tells us that Jesus (pbuh) departed never having eaten pork, never having violated the Sabbath, divorce was disallowed except in adultery during his lifetime, he followed the law of Moses to the letter. However, Paul's dreams have now legalized for all Christians that which Jesus (according to the Bible) died believing in.

You will not find a single priest or evangelist who tells his Christian followers "to enter heaven, only keep the commandments" (as his "Lord" did). The vast majority of Christians today do not refrain from eating pork nor do they observe the Sabbath as their "Lord" did, and died doing. There are so many differences between Christians today and Jesus and his actions. Christians in general follow the commandments of Paul and others who are given the power to totally cancel out all of the commandments of both Moses and Jesus, and no Christian has any reservations whatsoever. Christianity is literally built around the premise that disciples of disciples, have the power to cancel the commandments of their prophets and even the law practiced by the alleged Son of God himself.

Let us look at this matter a little closer. God commanded the Jews to observe a very disciplined dietary regimen. This is where the Jews get the word "Kosher" from. "Kosher" refers to all food that it is permissible for a Jew to eat. Among those food that God forbade upon all Jews was swine. For this reason we find that Jesus (pbuh) considered pigs such filthy and disgusting animals that not only did he never taste their flesh (incidentally, Muslims also live out their lives never having tasted a single swine), but he literally considered them so lowly that they were only fit as garbage dumps for devils. In Matthew 8:31-32 we read

"So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.."

However, shortly after Jesus' departure, Paul makes lawful all of the creatures of the earth

"If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake."

1 Corinthians 10:27


In one tragic moment, Jesus' lifetime of restraint was casually swept under the carpet.

Many people believe that the vision of Peter found in Acts was the primary factor in the cancellation of this fundamental law of the Jews. However, Christian scholars today are well aware that the writings of Paul are the oldest writings to be found in the Bible. They were written between 50-60 AD while even the four Gospels themselves were written decades later between 70-110 C.E. Secondly, the book of Acts (70-90 AD) although popularly considered to have been written by Paul, is now recognized to have been written by some unknown author(s) other than Paul but who was/were sympathetic to his cause.

According to the Bible, Jesus (pbuh) spent his whole life in strict adherence to the commandments of the law of Moses (pbuh). He departed leaving his followers with the following words:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 5:17-19


Paul's dreams, however, have broken commandments right and left. There is so much of what Jesus (pbuh) did during his lifetime that his followers have now totally neglected, not because Jesus (pbuh) told them to break the commandments, but because Paul would later tell them to break them upon the authority of the visions he was receiving.

So, what we have concluded from the current view of Jesus' master plan is the following:

1) Jesus (pbuh) lived among his people for thirty three years showing them many miracles and teaching them to keep the commandments of Moses, to observe the Sabbath, to refrain from eating pork, to circumcise their children, to fast with the Jews, to worship in the synagogues, and so forth. He did not do this with his words alone but gave them an example in his own actions. Whenever he spoke about his miracles he claimed that he did them through "the finger of God" and that he "can of mine own self do nothing." Whenever he spoke of worship he would say "worship the Father" and not "worship me," "worship the Trinity," or "worship us." He also never said "I am a god." The term "son of God" was used by his people for many millennia before him to describe a devout servant of God and applied in the Bible to many prophets before him and even to common people. Further, God was understood by the people of his time to be the "Father" of all those who love him.

2) For three centuries after the departure of Jesus (pbuh), his apostles and their followers (excluding Paul and his followers) continued the tradition of Jesus (pbuh) as faithful Jews and followers of the law of Moses (pbuh). They practiced their worship in the synagogues of the Jews, they visited the Temple daily, and for all intents and purposes were indistinguishable from all other Jews except for the fact that they affirmed that Jesus (pbuh) was the promised Messiah, which many Jews did not (and still do not) accept. None of these people, not even Paul, had ever heard of a "Trinity." Jesus (pbuh) decided not to reveal his (and God's) "true" nature until three centuries after his departure. He decided that three centuries after his departure it would be time to come to the church and give them divine "inspiration" to "insert" verses in the Bible validating the "Trinity" (such as 1 John 5:7). These "inspired" revelations from Jesus are documented by Christian historians to have been continuing at least up till the fifteenth century CE (see above). Jesus also "inspired" them to utterly destroy all Gospels written before this fourth century which did not teach this "true" nature of Jesus as being God. He further "inspired" the church to utterly destroy all ancient manuscripts written in the original Aramaic or Hebrew language of Jesus (pbuh) and the apostles. He "inspired" them that the Greek and Latin manuscripts would be amply sufficient. And finally, he "inspired" them to launch a massive campaign of "inquiry" to "cleanse" the earth of all remaining Unitarian Christians or convert them.

3) When Jesus (pbuh) departed, his followers continued to faithfully follow his example and observe the laws of Moses. Now Paul comes along and persecutes the followers of Jesus every way he knows how. He admits that:

"For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it"

Galatians 1:13 (also see Acts 7:58-60, 8:1-3)

Now Jesus (pbuh) decides to bypass his apostles and go directly to the worst persecutor of his followers on earth in a "vision" and give him knowledge not available to the apostles. Paul now reveals that God holds all of mankind responsible for the sin of Adam (Romans 5:11-19, 1 Corinthians 15:22). God himself, however, claims long before Paul was ever born that

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin"

Deuteronomy 24:16.

and "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son"

Ezekiel 18:20

....etc.

4) Paul further revealed that Jesus came to him in visions and told him to nullify the commandments of God which he had spent thirty three years on earth upholding and teaching his followers to observe, and that these commandments "decayeth," were ready to "vanish away," and were a "curse" upon us. The only requirement in order to receive true salvation, according to Paul, is to believe in the original sin and the atonement. No actual work is necessary. This one belief is the only necessary and sufficient condition. However, Jesus departed not only never having violated the law of Moses but also having told his people that "till heaven and earth pass" whoever would dare to do so would be called "the least in the kingdom of God." Jesus (pbuh) was claimed to have been conditioned and prepared for "the atonement" from the beginning of time, however, whenever he was asked about the path to heaven he not only never mentioned any atonement but only (repeatedly) told his followers to "keep the commandments." Even when pressed for the path to perfection he only told his followers to sell their belongings.

5) Jesus never in his life saw fit to write a single inspired word. However, after he died, he started appearing to countless people in their dreams and visions and commanding them to write in his name and guiding their words. He did not see fit to guide their hands from writing conflicting versions of the same story (chapter two) since these contradictions were intended to strengthen a Christian's faith.

6) Since the only course to salvation is to accept the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh) and the law of Moses is worthless, therefore, God did not see fit to allow those born before Jesus (pbuh) including countless previous prophets to enter heaven, but rather allowed them to remain stained with the sin of Adam and gave them a very strict and disciplined law that was totally useless and could never relieve them of this hereditary stain. These people shall never receive true salvation. Only those after Jesus (pbuh) will receive true salvation (Romans 3:28...etc.).

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.6.html
 
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and let's not forget the undeniable fact that were Jesus pbuh among us today, what he would do and practise would be very close to what Muslims do and practise.
 
naidamar, I hope your last two posts weren't in response to my challenge. If so, it's a big swing and a miss, for none of that shows Paul telling Jewish Christians to do anything, pro or con.


On top of which, the idea that all of the creatures of the earth are made lawful to eat by Paul only after Jesus overlooks what Jesus himself said to the disciples during his own ministry:
Mark 7

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "[f]

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

But even though Jesus had done away with this proscription much earlier, Paul never does tell Jews that they should eat anything unclean. Paul's comments are directed to the Gentiles that have come to have faith in Christ, and to them he says that they know that these other gods that people in paga temples pretend to sacrifice meat to before selling it in the marketplace aren't really gods. There is only one God, YAHWEH, and therefore this meat wasn't sacrificed to anything, and they are free to eat it without being concerned. The only exception is if there are new converts present who have recently come out of this pagan culture, then they need to be mindful of how this could still be confusing to them and abstain until they become more mature in their faith.
 
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naidamar, I hope your last two posts weren't in response to my challenge. If so, it's a big swing and a miss, for none of that shows Paul telling Jewish Christians to do anything.

You are one tricky guy, arent you?

Show me where I ever wrote jewish christians?

By keep on entering the phrase "jewish christians", you are indirectly acknowledge that Jesus pbuh teachings only applied to the jews while Paulian teachings applied to the rest of humanity.

If that is so, then be my guest.

It is not me who are claiming to follow jesus pbuh, and yet eschewing almost everything he taught and did in exchange for the dreams of Paul.
 
the Bible gave hints on how to identify the main Anti-Christ.

1Jo 2:18 ... ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The Apostle John is a good source because his epistles were written slightly after the Pauline epistles have circulated, thus are in a position to question Paul. John said that the anti-Christ "went out from us". Clearly, this means that the anti-Christ/s is/are people associated with Christianity.

Paul called himself as "Apostle". But in the Bible, apostleship is a well-defined office. There are only 12 apostles!!! The Bible keep on referring to the apostles as the 12. The number is symbolic as symbolic as the 12 tribes. In fact, when Judas needed to be replaced, the eleven had to go through a special process to elect Matthias to the "twelve. Rev 21:14 talks about 12 named apostles.

Paul is not qualified, not validly selected. He had evil qualities even as he ostensibly followed Christ. He violated the Commandments. He directly opposed Christ in many, many situations. He is the Anti-Christ.

And his followers were called Christians! (Acts 11:26)
 
the Bible gave hints on how to identify the main Anti-Christ.

1Jo 2:18 ... ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The Apostle John is a good source because his epistles were written slightly after the Pauline epistles have circulated, thus are in a position to question Paul. John said that the anti-Christ "went out from us". Clearly, this means that the anti-Christ/s is/are people associated with Christianity.

Paul called himself as "Apostle". But in the Bible, apostleship is a well-defined office. There are only 12 apostles!!! The Bible keep on referring to the apostles as the 12. The number is symbolic as symbolic as the 12 tribes. In fact, when Judas needed to be replaced, the eleven had to go through a special process to elect Matthias to the "twelve. Rev 21:14 talks about 12 named apostles.

Paul is not qualified, not validly selected. He had evil qualities even as he ostensibly followed Christ. He violated the Commandments. He directly opposed Christ in many, many situations. He is the Anti-Christ.

And his followers were called Christians! (Acts 11:26)


The biggest problem with the above analysis is simply that it is never asserted in scripture nor would it be in keeping with what is in fact revealed in scripture to say, "There are only 12 apostles!!!"


The English word "Apostle" comes from the Greek word apostello, which is used 131 times in the New Testament and it means to send. The apostles apostolos are people who are sent out with a message, specifically with a message about the resurrection. Now, Paul is NOT an apostle in the same way that say Peter and John are, and even he recognizes this. But he is one who is sent out by Christ to bear witness to the resurrection and God's new movement of the Gospel that is to be shared, by Christ's own command, with all the world. So, Paul becomes an apostle (a sent out one) to the Gentiles. Nothing at all improper about that usage or for Paul to make such a claim for himself.

Acts 13 tells how the Holy Spirit himself specifically told the other apostles that he was also calling Paul and Barnabas to a special work and ministry. And in Acts 14:14 they are both called apostles. Others who are noted as apostles, in addition to "THE TWELVE", include Andronicus and Junias (Romans 16:7).

So, while we generally think of the apostles as those who were initially THE 12 Disciples of Jesus, the truth is that just as Jesus had more than 12 disciples so too the term "apostle" should not be so narrowly defined as to automatically exclude all who were not a part of that group.
 
Mark 7

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "[f]

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

But even though Jesus had done away with this proscription much earlier, Paul never does tell Jews that they should eat anything unclean. Paul's comments are directed to the Gentiles that have come to have faith in Christ, and to them he says that they know that these other gods that people in paga temples pretend to sacrifice meat to before selling it in the marketplace aren't really gods. There is only one God, YAHWEH, and therefore this meat wasn't sacrificed to anything, and they are free to eat it without being concerned. The only exception is if there are new converts present who have recently come out of this pagan culture, then they need to be mindful of how this could still be confusing to them and abstain until they become more mature in their faith.


Moot point . The Gospels show Jesus breaking the laws of the Torah. According to Matthew and Mark, Jesus said that all foods are clean, but the Jewish Law clearly prohibits the consumption of pork!

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. (Matthew 15:11)

"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' (Mark 7:18-20)

Notice how the deceptive editors placed a note (in brackets) claiming that Jesus made all foods clean. This is clearly false, and Jesus never uttered these words. The Gospels were written under the influence of Paul, who rejected the Jewish Law (Hebrews 5:13, Galatians 3:13)


The Gentile writers fabricated these words to make Jesus say that all foods are clean, thus supporting the Pauline doctrine. According to Matthew 5:17-20, 23:23, Jesus came to preach the Jewish Law, and what does the Jewish Law say about eating pork?

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.
Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you. (Leviticus 11:7-8)
And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
These ye shall eat of all that [are] in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat: (Deu 14:8-9)

The Bible prohibits the eating of pork. Jesus never made permissible the consumption of ‘all’ foods, it was a Pauline innovation by the Gospel writers..
Jesus only ate kosher meat and was forbidden to eat pig’s flesh.

Jesus said that he had come to uphold the law and not to destroy it one jot or one tithe. Jesus was educated in the synagogue in Jerusalem from the age of twelve. He preached in the synagogue. He used to keep the synagogue clean. No Christian today can be found performing these actions. How many Christians have been even been circumcised in the manner that Jesus was? The services now held in today’s churches were developed long after Jesus had disappeared. Many of them come directly from the pagan Graeco-Roman mythological rites.

The prayers they use are not the prayers which Jesus made. The hymns they sing are not the praises which Jesus sung. Due to the innovations of Paul and his followers, there is no revealed teaching left as to what to eat and what not to eat. Anyone given a “Christian education” today eats what he feels like. Yet Jesus and his true followers only ate kosher meat and were forbidden to eat pig’s flesh”.

The Gospels imply that eating pork is forbidden, since Jesus murdered over 2,000 pigs by drowning them in the sea, and he will destroy the pigs on his Second Coming.
And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. (Matthew 8:32, Mark 5:13)
 
None of Jesus miracles were unique

The Bible itself refute the uniqueness of Jesus' Miracles:

Bringing the dead back to life:

"Then he cried out to the LORD , "O LORD my God, have you brought tragedy also upon this widow I am staying with, by causing her son to die?" Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried to the LORD , "O LORD my God, let this boy's life return to him!" The LORD heard Elijah's cry, and the boy's life returned to him, and he lived. Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from the room into the house. He gave him to his mother and said, "Look, your son is alive!" (From the NIV Bible, 1 Kings 17:20-23)"

"But the child's mother said, "As surely as the LORD lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So he got up and followed her. Gehazi went on ahead and laid the staff on the boy's face, but there was no sound or response. So Gehazi went back to meet Elisha and told him, "The boy has not awakened." When Elisha reached the house, there was the boy lying dead on his couch. He went in, shut the door on the two of them and prayed to the LORD. Then he got on the bed and lay upon the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands. As he stretched himself out upon him, the boy's body grew warm. Elisha turned away and walked back and forth in the room and then got on the bed and stretched out upon him once more. The boy sneezed seven times and opened his eyes. Elisha summoned Gehazi and said, "Call the Shunammite." And he did. When she came, he said, "Take your son." (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 4:30-36)"


Jesus' dead body never caused for any dead to come back to life, but Elisha's did:

"Elisha died and was buried. Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man's body into Elisha's tomb. When the body touched Elisha's bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet. Hazael king of Aram oppressed Israel throughout the reign of Jehoahaz. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 13:20-22)"


Creating life:

Jesus only restored life, but never actually created one from scratch. Moses, however, did create a live snake from a wooden stick:

"Then the LORD said to him, "What is that in your hand?" "A staff," he replied. The LORD said, "Throw it on the ground." Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. Then the LORD said to him, "Reach out your hand and take it by the tail." So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. (From the NIV Bible, Exodus 4:2-4)"


Curing the blind:

"When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. "Oh, my lord, what shall we do?" the servant asked. "Don't be afraid," the prophet answered. "Those who are with us are more than those who are with them." And Elisha prayed, "O LORD , open his eyes so he may see." Then the LORD opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the LORD , "Strike these people with blindness." So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked. Elisha told them, "This is not the road and this is not the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man you are looking for." And he led them to Samaria. After they entered the city, Elisha said, "LORD , open the eyes of these men so they can see." Then the LORD opened their eyes and they looked, and there they were, inside Samaria. When the king of Israel saw them, he asked Elisha, "Shall I kill them, my father? Shall I kill them?" "Do not kill them," he answered. "Would you kill men you have captured with your own sword or bow? Set food and water before them so that they may eat and drink and then go back to their master." So he prepared a great feast for them, and after they had finished eating and drinking, he sent them away, and they returned to their master. So the bands from Aram stopped raiding Israel's territory. Some time later, Ben-Hadad king of Aram mobilized his entire army and marched up and laid siege to Samaria. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 6:15-24)"


Healing leprosy:

"Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, "Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed." But Naaman went away angry and said, "I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than any of the waters of Israel? Couldn't I wash in them and be cleansed?" So he turned and went off in a rage. Naaman's servants went to him and said, "My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, 'Wash and be cleansed'!" So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 5:10-14)"


Feeding hundreds with few loafs of bread:

"A man came from Baal Shalishah, bringing the man of God twenty loaves of barley bread baked from the first ripe grain, along with some heads of new grain. "Give it to the people to eat," Elisha said. "How can I set this before a hundred men?" his servant asked. But Elisha answered, "Give it to the people to eat. For this is what the LORD says: 'They will eat and have some left over.' " Then he set it before them, and they ate and had some left over, according to the word of the LORD. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 4:42-44)"

So as we clearly see from the above verses, Jesus' Miracles were not unique. Therefore, they can never be used to prove that he is the Creator of the Universe
 
The biggest problem with the above analysis is simply that it is never asserted in scripture nor would it be in keeping with what is in fact revealed in scripture to say, "There are only 12 apostles!!!"


I really could swear you are not at all interested what are asserted/written/revealed in your own scripture, based on your multitude posts that ignored the bible verses about the oneness of God and Jesus' commands to worship God only, while believing in what is not revealed/written in the bible such as the worshipping of jesus pbuh.

quick summary about Paul:

1. Jesus (pbuh), during his lifetime on earth, commands mankind to strictly and uncompromisingly observe the religion of Moses till the end of time (Matthew 5:18). He tells them that observing the religion of Moses and selling their belongings shall make them "prefect." (Luke 18:18-22).
2. After the departure of Jesus, Paul, according to his own admission "beyond measure" severely persecuted countless Christians, strove to "slaughter" them, and also "wasted" the church (Galatians 1:13-15, Acts 8:1-3, Acts 9:1-2, Acts 9:41, Acts 6:5, Acts 22:4,.. etc.). Paul also looked on with satisfaction as the apostle Stephen was stoned to death (Acts 22:20).
3. Paul receives "visions" and is saved (Acts 22:9, Acts 9:7...etc.)
4. Paul is not sure exactly what he saw in his visions. His visions also contained "unspeakable words that it is unlawful to utter." (2 Corinthians 12:1-5)
5. Paul tells us that the person in his visions was Jesus (pbuh). He declares that he received his teachings of "Christianity" from these visions and from no one else, not even the apostles (Galatians 1:12). In other words, he has no need of learning from the apostles. His visions are higher in authority than anything they might have to say. He then goes on to show everyone how the apostles of Jesus are constantly in need of his guidance to recognize the truth (e.g. Galatians 2:11-13)
6. Paul claims that all things are made lawful to him and he shall not follow anyone (1 Corinthians 6:12). He also claims that he shall do whatever it takes to get people to follow him, no matter what that might entail (1 Corinthians 9:20-22).
7. The apostles differ with Paul regarding the "truth" of the circumcision ordained by God and other matters.(1 Corinthians 7:19, Galatians 2:7...etc.).
8. The apostles, according to Paul, did not walk "uprightly" according to the "truth of the Gospel" and were lazy, misguided, hypocrites (1 Corinthians 15:10, Galatians 2:14, Galatians 2:13).
9. Most of the books of the New Testament are written by Paul himself. In them, Paul himself gives an unblushing pronouncement of how he was a vastly superior apostle of Jesus (pbuh) than the apostles who accompanied Jesus (pbuh) during his ministry and they all needed his guidance to see the "truth" of Jesus' message and how Jesus (pbuh) and the apostles eagerly appointed him the twelfth apostle.
 
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