What Would Jesus (pbuh) Be?

[Ramadhan]

Back on topic, Jesus pbuh would greet people with:
"shalom alaikum"

a "peace be with you" greeting that is offered by every muslims many times a day.

 

[Predator]

And this is where any parallel between the Quranic Isa and the Biblical Jesus whom Christians worship just comes to an end. Our Jesus is not a murderer.

One of the most common claim made by Christians is that Jesus never killed anybody. They often always bring this up against Muslims as if to show that the prophet Muhammad was a bad person because he killed people. Before refuting the myth that Jesus never killed anyone, we must also expose the Christian double standard and the Christian weak line of argument. If Jesus is great, and the prophet Muhammad is bad because he killed people, then so is Moses, and so is David.



The OT shows us a lot of battles that both Moses and David took part in, and both these men killed a lot of people, including women and children. Yet when we show this to Christians, they simply ignore it, or try to justify it. Yet what is most inconsistent about this is that if the prophet Muhammad kills people in battle or war, the Christian goes mad and starts screaming out 'false prophet! Such inconsistency from the Christian only exposes the Christian's deceptive character, and shows that these Christians dont have no holy spirit in them.



Now let us go back to the main topic, which is refuting the Christian propaganda lie that Jesus never killed anyone. As you all know, Christians always make the claim that Jesus is God, they claim that Jesus is the same God of the OT. So basically what we have is this:



1- Jesus is God



2- Jesus is the God of the Old Testement



3- Christians believe that the OT is the inspired word of God



4- The OT is authentic to the Christian



5- The God in the OT is Jesus



So since Jesus is the God of the OT, we shall now look at the God of the OT ordering the KILLINGS of many people:



Zephaniah 2:12-15



Zephaniah 2:12-15

"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist



Ezekiel 9:5-7

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."



Matthew henry's Biblical commentary writes this on Ezekial 9:5-7 :



. A command given to the destroyers to do execution according to their commission. They stood by the brazen altar, waiting for orders; and orders are here given them to cut off and destroy all that were either guilty of, or accessory to, the abominations of Jerusalem, and that did not sigh and cry for them. Note, When God has gathered his wheat into his garner nothing remains but to burn up the chaff, Matthew 3:12 http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+3:12&t=kjv.



1. They are ordered to destroy all, (1.) Without exception. They must go through the city, and smite; they must slay utterly, slay to destruction, give them their death's wound. They must make no distinction of age or sex, but cut off old and young; neither the beauty of the virgins, nor the innocency of the babes, shall secure them. This was fulfilled in the death of multitudes by famine and pestilence, especially by the sword of the Chaldeans, as far as the military execution went. Sometimes even such bloody work as this has been God's work. But what an evil thing is sin, then, which provokes the God of infinite mercy to such severity! (2.) Without compassion: "Let not your eye spare, neither have you pity (Ezekiel 9:5 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+9:5&t=kjv> ); you must not save any whom God has doomed to destruction, as Saul did Agag and the Amalekites, for that is doing the work of God deceitfully, Jeremiah 48:10 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jer+48:10&t=kjv> . None need to be more merciful than God is; and he had said (Ezekiel 8:18 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+8:18&t=kjv> ), My eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity." Note, Those that live in sin, and hate to be reformed, will perish in sin, and deserve not to be pitied; for they might easily have prevented the ruin, and would not.



2. They are warned not to do the least hurt to those that were marked for salvation: "Come not near any man upon whom is the mark; do not so much as threaten or frighten any of them; it is promised them that there shall no evil come nigh them, and therefore you must keep at a distance from them." The king of Babylon gave particular orders that Jeremiah should be protected. Baruch and Ebed-melech were secured, and, it is likely, others of Jeremiah's friends, for his sake. God had promised that it should go well with his remnant and they should be well treated (Jeremiah 15:11 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jer+15:11&t=kjv> ); and we have reason to think that none of the mourning praying remnant fell by the sword of the Chaldeans, but that God found out some way or other to secure them all, as, in the last destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, the Christians were all secured in a city called Pella, and none of them perished with the unbelieving Jews. Note, None of those shall be lost whom God has marked for life and salvation; for the foundation of God stands sure.



3. They are directed to begin at the sanctuary (Ezekiel 9:6 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+9:6&t=kjv> ), that sanctuary which, in the chapter before, he had seen the horrid profanation of; they must begin there because there the wickedness began which provoked God to send these judgments. The debaucheries of the priests were the poisoning of the springs, to which all the corruption of the streams was owing. The wickedness of the sanctuary was of all wickedness the most offensive to God, and therefore there the slaughter must begin: "Begin there, to try if the people will take warning by the judgments of God upon their priests, and will repent and reform; begin there, that all the world may see and know that the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God, and hates sin most in those that are nearest to him." Note, When judgments are abroad they commonly begin at the house of God, 1 Peter 4:17 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1pe+4:17&t=kjv> . You only have I known, and therefore I will punish you, Amos 3:2 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=am+3:2&t=kjv> . God's temple is a sanctuary, a refuge and protection for penitent sinners, but not for any that go on still in their trespasses; neither the sacredness of the place nor the eminency of their place in it will be their security. It should seem the destroyers made some difficulty of putting men to death in the temple, but God bids them not to hesitate at that, but (Ezekiel 9:7 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+9:7&t=kjv> ), Defile the house, and fill the courts with slain. They will not be taken from the altar (as was appointed by the law, Exodus 21:14 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ex+21:14&t=kjv> ), but think to secure themselves by keeping hold of the horns of it, like Joab, and therefore, like him, let them die there, 1 Kings 2:30,31 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1ki+2:30,31&t=kjv> . There the blood of one of God's prophets had been shed (Matthew 23:35 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+23:35&t=kjv> ) and therefore let their blood be shed. Note, If the servants of God's house defile it with their idolatries, God will justly suffer the enemies of it to defile it with their violences, Psalms 79:1 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ps+79:1&t=kjv> . But these acts of necessary justice were really, whatever they were ceremonially, rather a purification than a pollution of the sanctuary; it was putting away evil from among them. 4. They are appointed to go forth into the city, Ezekiel 9:6,7 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+9:6,7&t=kjv> . Note, Wherever sin has gone before judgement will follow after; and, though judgement begins at the house of God, yet it shall not end there. The holy city shall be no more a protection to the wicked people then the holy house was to the wicked priests.

II. Here is execution done accordingly. They observed their orders, and, 1. They began at the elders, the ancient men that were before the house, and slew them first, either those seventy ancients who worshipped idols in their chambers (Ezekiel 8:12 <http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eze+8:12&t=kjv> ) or those twenty-five who worshipped the sun between the porch and the altar, who might more properly be said to be before the house. Note, Ringleaders in sin may expect to be first met with by the judgments of God; and the sins of those who are in the most eminent and public stations call for the most exemplary punishments. 2. They proceeded to the common people: They went forth and slew in the city; for, when the decree has gone forth, there shall be no delay; if God begin, he will make an end.



These are just 2 examples the God in the OT ordering the death and destruction of the people. In fact the verses are very explicit; the God of the OT is making it clear that it is HIS SWORD which shall slay the people.

So since Jesus is God, and is the God of the OT, this means that it was Jesus who ordered these killings and it was Jesus who killed all these people! Hence the Christian myth is DEBUNKED. Jesus did kill, and Jesus ordered the killings of women and children, the fact that Christians claim that Jesus never killed anyone is a plane intentional lie by the Christians. We must ask why would the Christians make such a blatant lie? And it also leaves us with another question, which is what else do the Christians lie about? What other myths and propaganda do they create on their made up faith? We can only guess, but no doubt each lie will get caught and exposed.

 

[Supreme]

One of the most common claim made by Christians is that Jesus never killed anybody. They often always bring this up against Muslims as if to show that the prophet Muhammad was a bad person because he killed people. Before refuting the myth that Jesus never killed anyone, we must also expose the Christian double standard and the Christian weak line of argument. If Jesus is great, and the prophet Muhammad is bad because he killed people, then so is Moses, and so is David.

I mentioned it not to try and refute any claims Muhammed, David and the like weren't great. Killing people doesn't make one great, and not killing them does not make one great. I mentioned it because Jesus is not a murderer, because He never murdered anyone.

The OT shows us a lot of battles that both Moses and David took part in, and both these men killed a lot of people, including women and children. Yet when we show this to Christians, they simply ignore it, or try to justify it. Yet what is most inconsistent about this is that if the prophet Muhammad kills people in battle or war, the Christian goes mad and starts screaming out 'false prophet! Such inconsistency from the Christian only exposes the Christian's deceptive character, and shows that these Christians dont have no holy spirit in them.

Again, I think I may've hit a nerve unintentionally. My post did not say 'Jesus never killed, therefore our main figure is better than your main figure who did kill.' I understand the tirades and murders recorded in the OT.

Now let us go back to the main topic, which is refuting the Christian propaganda lie that Jesus never killed anyone. As you all know, Christians always make the claim that Jesus is God, they claim that Jesus is the same God of the OT. So basically what we have is this:



1- Jesus is God



2- Jesus is the God of the Old Testement



3- Christians believe that the OT is the inspired word of God



4- The OT is authentic to the Christian



5- The God in the OT is Jesus

We don't deny whatsoever God has killed/kills people. What we do deny is that Jesus ever killed anyone during His time on Earth, as this would be completely contrary to His Earthly message.

 

[Predator]

We don't deny whatsoever God has killed/kills people.

So by God you mean you refer to Jesus :

Jesus = The God who created the universe

So that means God is infact killing people remotely ,so Jesus does kill people

What we do deny is that Jesus ever killed anyone during His time on Earth, as this would be completely contrary to His Earthly message

Yeah but Jesus isnt finished yet ,he will be coming back to earth towards the end of time

Killing people doesn't make one great, and not killing them does not make one great.

So killing doesnt make one great , so i suppose killing the Beast devil anti-christ at the end of time would be cruel thing , right ,since Jesus forgives , he should be forgiving and cleanse the devil instead

I mentioned it because Jesus is not a murderer, because He never murdered anyone,

You make that sound so wonderful , Right , Jesus is not a murder yet but would be a HERO for killing the beast anti-christ .

Killing people doesn't make one great, and not killing them does not make one great

Couldnt the same be said about Muhammad , David and Moses , they were heroes of God and killing their enemies made them great?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I really could swear you are not at all interested what are asserted/written/revealed in your own scripture, based on your multitude posts that ignored the bible verses about the oneness of God and Jesus' commands to worship God only, while believing in what is not revealed/written in the bible such as the worshipping of jesus pbuh.

Look who is talking. Again, you make a number of assertions (9 enumerated), but none of them are related to what you quoted from my previous post.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The biggest problem with the [naidamar's] analysis is simply that it is never asserted in scripture nor would it be in keeping with what is in fact revealed in scripture to say, "There are only 12 apostles!!!"

BTW, it is revealed/written in the Bible that Jesus is worshipped, so quit saying that it isn't.

Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Matthew 28:17
When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Luke 24:52
Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

John 9:38
Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.


So, while we may not be able to definitively answer the question as to what group he would associate with, what places he would or would not enter. As long as there were people today who related to him as they did in the past, the one thing that we can definitively say about Jesus is that people would worship him, and he would accept it now just as he did then.

 

[Supreme]

So by God you mean you refer to Jesus :

Jesus = The God who created the universe

So that means God is infact killing people remotely ,so Jesus does kill people

By God, I mean the Son. Jesus is just God the Son in human form. The Son has killed people, but Jesus, seeing as He was merely the Son incarnate, does not kill people.

Yeah but Jesus isnt finished yet ,he will be coming back to earth towards the end of time

I don't think there's a single Christian who doubts this.

So killing doesnt make one great , so i suppose killing the Beast devil anti-christ at the end of time would be cruel thing , right ,since Jesus forgives , he should be forgiving and cleanse the devil instead

Seeing as the Devil is not human, forgiveness cannot be applied to it.

ou make that sound so wonderful , Right , Jesus is not a murder yet but would be a HERO for killing the beast anti-christ .

The 'beast anti-christ' is not human, therefore murdering it is not the same as murdering a human.

Couldnt the same be said about Muhammad , David and Moses , they were heroes of God and killing their enemies made them great?

The same could be said, yes, but it's entirely subjective.

 

[glo]

Back on topic, Jesus pbuh would greet people with:
"shalom alaikum"

a "peace be with you" greeting that is offered by every muslims many times a day.

During our church service we too say to each other 'peace be with you' - after all, what greater thing than to offer your fellow man than the peace of God? :statisfie

But you make a good point - we should wish each other the peace of God at all times and with every greeting, not just when we are in church.
Food for thought ...

 

[Predator]

BTW, it is revealed/written in the Bible that Jesus is worshipped, so quit saying that it isn't.

Matthew 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Matthew 28:17
When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Luke 24:52
Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

John 9:38
Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.


So, while we may not be able to definitively answer the question as to what group he would associate with, what places he would or would not enter. As long as there were people today who related to him as they did in the past, the one thing that we can definitively say about Jesus is that people would worship him, and he would accept it now just as he did then.

Jesus has clearly defined who is person that needs to be worshipped

" 'All this I will give you,' he (Satan) said (to Jesus), 'if you will bow down and worship me.' Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 4:9-10)"

In this verse, we clearly see that Jesus refused to obey to Satan's commands by taking Satan as his GOD or Superior. Jesus told him that non shall be worshiped except GOD Almighty. If Jesus was GOD Almighty Himself as Trinitarians falsely claim, then his answer to Satan would be completely different!


"They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 15:9)"

"They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 7:7)"

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. (From the NIV Bible, John 4:23)"

Again, here we clearly see how Jesus defined the true worship. It is the Worship of GOD Almighty alone! There is no "trinity worshiping". This is all bogus man made lies and "rules (Mark 7:7)" that misinterpret what Jesus really meant.

Thus you are supposed to worship the FATHER in heaven (God almighty) and not Jesus



Did David worship Saul when he prostrated his face down to the ground before him?
Let's look at the following verses:

1 Samuel 24
7 With these words David rebuked his men and did not allow them to attack Saul. And Saul left the cave and went his way.
8 Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, "My lord the king!" When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
9 He said to Saul, "Why do you listen when men say, 'David is bent on harming you'?


Notice how David called Saul "my lord". While this is elaborated on much greatly in this article, but I just find it quite ridiculous that trinitarian Christians use "Jesus is lord" as a desperate proof for their lies about Jesus being our so-called "Creator".

Also, when David prostrated his face down to the ground to Saul, was he worshiping Saul as if Saul was GOD Almighty?


More examples:

2 Samuel 14:4
4 When the woman from Tekoa went to the king, she fell with her face to the ground to pay him honor, and she said, "Help me, O king!"

2 Samuel 14:22
22 Joab fell with his face to the ground to pay him honor, and he blessed the king. Joab said, "Today your servant knows that he has found favor in your eyes, my lord the king, because the king has granted his servant's request."


You Trinitarians are confused about people loving and adoring Jesus peace be upon him so much that they would greet him by either bending down their heads while standing (which could be considered an act of worship), or by bowing down on their hands and knees and greeting him with an act of worship. They think this would without a doubt the Creator of the Universe.

Notice in Luke 24:53 it says "praising God" and not "praising Jesus". After they finished greeting Jesus, who was given the power to heal the sick, cure the blind, and bring the dead into life, they returned to Jerusalem and Worshiped GOD Almighty.

Please be advised that some people in the Old Testament were too given the power to heal the sick, cure the blind, and bring the dead into life by GOD Almighty. So Jesus' miracles don't prove that he is GOD Almighty at all! Read 1 Kings 17:22, 2 Kings 4:34, 2 Kings 6:17,20, 2 Kings 5:14, and 2 Kings 4:44 for more details.

As I said, you have to take the entire argument of Jesus about the word "worship" to fully understand that GOD Almighty is an Absolute Undivided One GOD.


People dared to praise Jesus as GOD. Jesus refuted them:

“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)”


If Jesus doesn't consider himself as "good", then how can any sane person put him on the same level as GOD Almighty?

I have yet to see a good answer to this one by any polytheist trinitarian.


"Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

"My Father (GOD) is greater than I. (From the NIV Bible, John 14:28)"

"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. (From the NIV Bible, John 5:31)"

"By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. (From the NIV Bible, John 5:30)"

"...You have never heard his (GOD's) voice nor seen his form...(From the NIV Bible, John 5:37)"

"Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 23:46)"

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 24:36)" Not even Jesus knows when the Hour will come! How in the World can he be the Creator of the Universe?!

"1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears; (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 11:1-3)"

If Jesus had the spirit of fearing GOD in him, then how in the world is he the Creator of the Universe?!



In Islam, Allah Almighty ordered the Angels to bow down to Adam:

It is important to know that the word "worship" in the Middle East doesn't always apply to GOD Almighty alone. Even in Islam, Allah Almighty ordered the Angels to bow down to Adam peace be upon him

"And behold, We said to the angels: 'Bow down to Adam:' and they bowed down: Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. (The Noble Quran, 2:34)"

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said:

Narrated 'Umar: "I heard the Prophet saying, 'Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophets, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 654)"

 

[Ramadhan]

Did people really worshipped Jesus pbuh and he did not object?

With regard to John 9:38 "Lord. I believe, and he worshipped him." and Matthew 28:17 "they saw him, they worshipped him." Please note that the word translated as "worshipped" in both verses is the GREEK word "prosekunesan" which is derived from the root word proskuneo {pros-ku-neh'-o}. The literal meaning of this word is (and I quote): "to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand." This word also has the general meaning of "bow, crouch, crawl, kneel or prostrate." Please check the Strong's concordance for the true meaning of this word. Is the act of kissing someone's hand the same as worshipping him? Once again, selective translation.

However, the above two verses of John and Matthew are not the only two verses of the Bible were such selective translation techniques are employed in order to impress upon the reader a chosen doctrine. For example, in the "Gospel of Matthew" the English "translation" records that Jesus was "worshipped" by Magi that came from the East (2:11); by a ruler (9:18) , by boat people (14:33), by a Canaanite woman (15:24), by the mother of the Zebedees (20:20); and by Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:9) to name but a very few.

Since worshipping any one other than God is a fundamental sin, therefore, the reader understands that Jesus was God since he condoned them "worshipping" him. Since Jesus (pbuh) never once in the whole Bible ever told anyone "worship me!" (as God Himself does in many places), therefore, once again, we are told that Jesus was "hinting" that he wants us to worship him. However, as we can plainly see, what the author was in fact saying in these verses is that these people "fell at Jesus' feet," or that these people "knelt before Jesus."

How then shall we interpret their "kneeling down before Jesus."? Should we understand that they were "praying" to him? Far from it! Let us ask the Bible to explain:

"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, [upon] me [let this] iniquity [be]: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid."

1 Samuel 25:23-24

When Abigail "fell before" king David was she "worshipping" him? Was she "praying" to him? When she addressed him as "my lord," did she mean that he was her God?. Similarly,

"Then she went in, and fell at his (Elisha's) feet, and bowed herself to the ground, and took up her son, and went out."

2 Kings 4:37

"And his (Joseph's) brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants."

Genesis 50:18

"And there went over a ferry boat to carry over the king's household, and to do what he thought good. And Shimei the son of Gera fell down before the king, as he was come over Jordan;"

2 Samuel 19:18

"Worship" is one of those English words which carry a double meaning. The one most popular among most people is "to pray to." This is the meaning that immediately springs into everyone's mind when they read this word. However, "worship" has another meaning. It also means "to respect," "to reverence," or "to adore" (see for example Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition). The second meaning is used more frequently in England than, for example, in the United States. However, the first remains the most popular and well known meaning in any English speaking country. Even at that, in Britain it is not at all uncommon even in this age to find the British addressing their nobles as "your worship."

What the translators have done when translating these verse is that they have "technically" translated the word correctly, however, the true meaning of this word is now completely lost.

Finally, in order to seal the proof of this matter and to dispel any lingering doubt that may remain in the reader's mind, the reader is encouraged to obtain a copy of the "New English Bible." In it they will find the translations of the quoted verses to read:

1. "bowed to the ground" (2:11);
2. "fell at his feet" (14:33);
3. "falling prostrate before him" (28:9), and
4. "fell prostrate before him" (28:17)...etc.

Please also read the translation of these verses in "The Complete Bible, an American Translation" By Edward Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith where they are once again honestly translated as:

1. "they threw themselves down and did homage to him" (2:11),
2. "fell down before him"(14:33),
3. "and they went up to him and clasped his feed and bowed to the ground before him" (28:9), and
4. "bowed down before him"(28:17), etc.

Once again, we remember that such sublime manipulation of the translation in order to establish with the reader a chosen doctrine was exposed by God in the noble Qur'an. The Qur'an says:

"There is among them a party who distort the Scripture with their tongues that you might think that it is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture; and they say, 'It is from God,' but it is not from God; and they speak a lie against God, and [well] they know it!"

The Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):78

 

[Ramadhan]

During our church service we too say to each other 'peace be with you' - after all, what greater thing than to offer your fellow man than the peace of God? :statisfie

But you make a good point - we should wish each other the peace of God at all times and with every greeting, not just when we are in church.
Food for thought ...

Good for you and your church to little by little try to emulate what Jesus pbuh did and would do.

Maybe you and your fellow christians will also one day believe in what Jesus pbuh believed, and practise what Jesus pbuh practised.

 

[Supreme]

During our church service we too say to each other 'peace be with you' - after all, what greater thing than to offer your fellow man than the peace of God? :statisfie

But you make a good point - we should wish each other the peace of God at all times and with every greeting, not just when we are in church.
Food for thought ...

I suppose we do similar things. We turn round and greet one another. The other day, the lovely tall black gentleman turned round to me, gave me a high five and told me that we were both one. It made me feel fantastic.

 

[Predator]

lol since when did killing an animal make you a murderer?

‘By him in whose hand my soul is, surely the son of Mary will come down among you as a just ruler. He will break the cross, kill the pigs and abolish the Jizyah. Wealth will be in such abundance that no one will care about it, and a single prostration in prayer will be better than the world and all that is in it.’ (An-Nisaa 4:159) (Bukhari; Muslim).

The hadith clearly demonstrates that: First, Pigs will one day become a big menace for the mankind; Second, Killing pigs is an open option. Third, it will be Jesus after his Second Advent who will ultimately order the killing of all pigs. The question can be asked here: When birds can be culled in a big way to stop Bird flu, why can pigs not be killed to stop Swine flu? Killing pigs will not be easily acceptable to the market. But this option must not be lost sight of, and the action must be taken before it is too late.


Killing Pigs and banning Pig Farming must be an open option

By

Dr. Javed Jamil

In a disturbing new projection, Centre for Disease Control and Prevention, a health agency of the US says up to 40 percent of Americans could get swine flu this year and next and several hundred thousand could die without a successful vaccine campaign and other measures. The virus has already killed about 300 Americans and experts believe it has sickened more than 1 million, comparable to a seasonal flu with the weird ability to keep spreading in the summer. The world health organization and other agencies fear that the current pandemic can affect up to 2 billion people, that is one third of the world population, and the number of deaths could very well cross the ten million mark.

The world health organization and other agencies fear that the current pandemic can affect up to 2 billion people, that is one third of the world population, and the number of deaths could very well cross the ten million mark. ….. The 1918 flu pandemic in humans was associated with H1N1 and influenza appearing in pigs. It is estimated that anywhere from 50 to 100 million people were killed worldwide. This outbreak confirmed that pigs can serve as a crucible where novel influenza viruses emerge as a result of the re-assortment of genes from different strains.

Swine flu is a respiratory disease of pigs first described in the 1930s and while historic transmissions to people have been "sporadic", the human infection rate is rising. The cases commonly involved pig industry workers or people who came into close contact with infected pigs at country fairs. Of the several strains of the swine flu known to be circulating in the world’s pig populations, the one labelled H1N1 is the most common and it is a new variant of this strain which is thought responsible for the latest spate of cases. The 1918 flu pandemic in humans was associated with H1N1 and influenza appearing in pigs. It is estimated that anywhere from 50 to 100 million people were killed worldwide. This outbreak confirmed that pigs can serve as a crucible where novel influenza viruses emerge as a result of the re-assortment of genes from different strains.

It is sickening to see that even health policies are not outside the domain of the global forces of economics, which weigh all the policies on the balance provided by the interests of the market. Harsh measures to stop the death of humans are never applied, if these damage the “economy” – the “economy” in effect means the interests of the market. In the fast growing pandemic of Swine flu also, attempts are being made not to cause any severe damage to the tourism industry and the pig farming. People are being told that Pork eating does not cause Swine Flu. While it is true that pork does not directly cause the Flu, it is also true that the pig farming, which is directly associated with the supply of pork is directly responsible for its spread. That in itself is an enough reason to prohibit Pork eating. A history of the death of more than 50 million people less than a century back, and the fear of the disease affecting more than a third of the world population must be substantial enough grounds not only for banning Pork but also ban Pig farming. If the current and future pandemics are to be prevented,pigs should be killed

 

[Predator]

SWINE : The flesh of the swine forbidden -
(a) "Of their flesh (of the swine) shall ye NOT EAT, and their
carcase ye shall NOT TOUCH; they are unclean to you."
LEVITICUS 11:8

Jesus (pbuh) destroyed 2000 pigs to heal one man -
(b) "And forthwith Jesus gave them leave (permission). And the
unclean spirits (the devils) went out, and entered into the
swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the
sea, (they were about two thousand); and were choked in the
sea." MARK 5:13


So thus JESUS the MAN we Muslims call as our Prophet and the MAN you Christians call as your "Lord" killed the pigs to heal people , so thus why cant we kill pigs to prevent swine flu , the same way we kill birds as a swine flu prevention measure

PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE

 

[Supreme]

1) Why did God create pigs if only to kill them at the end of time?
2) Jesus sent the evil spirits into the pigs, and the evil spirits killed the pigs.

 

[Ramadhan]

1) Why did God create pigs if only to kill them at the end of time?

Maybe you can ask god directly?
I always heard, in this forums too, that christians claim they are always in communication/contact with god.

2) Jesus sent the evil spirits into the pigs, and the evil spirits killed the pigs.

And so I assume god told you this.

 

[Nathaniel]

And so I assume god told you this.

Simply read the "pig passage" in full:

When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."

He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
Matthew 8:28-34 (TNIV)

The passage seems to have more of an emphasis on Jesus being "anti-demon" than "anti-pig"...

 

[جوري]

isn't it interesting though, that Jesus your god decided to put the unclean spirits of devils in pigs and have them off of a cliff?
either way it doesn't matter to me what you guys eat, it is just a conundrum from where we are, that your god is a poor man who never ate pigs, in fact drove them off a cliff to save a human life and yet you feast on the filthy creatures day and night..


why did God create pigs? why did he create hippopotamus or giraffes? just because an animal exists in creation doesn't denote that it should also exist on your plate, especially if specifically forbidden -- don't you in the least find it strange that the alleged god of the OT is the same God of the NT, yet he changes his mind about oh just about everything?

 

[Ramadhan]

Simply read the "pig passage" in full:

When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."

He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
Matthew 8:28-34 (TNIV)

The passage seems to have more of an emphasis on Jesus being "anti-demon" than "anti-pig"...

Thank you for the explanation of the pigs killing scene.
Christians believe that Jesus is god, right.
and christians also believe that being god, jesus was all-knowing and knew things in advance. This is evidence because christians believe that Jesus was actually god who came down to earth to atone humans sins with his own blood. Hence, he'd known he would sacrifice himself by crucifixion.

Now let's go back to the 2,000 pigs killing scene. Based on christianity premise of jesus being god, surely Jesus pbuh must have known in advance that droving the evil spirits into the 2,000 pigs would cause the death of all those pigs, and yet he did it anyway.

Therefore, it is safe to assume that Jesus did not think much about killing those 2,000 pigs.

 

[Ramadhan]

These are the things Jesus pbuh would do:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt"

{Matthew 26:39}

-Not eating pork (leviticus 11:7, Deuteronomy 14:8)

-Praying from dawn to evening (Psalms 113:3)

-Supplicating with hands raised (1 Kings 8:54, Nehemiah 8:6)

-No alcohol (Luke 1:15)

-Fasting (Matthew 4:2 - 5:6 - 6-16)

-Greetings (all prophets greeted by "peace be upon you (pbuh)!" Translation: "al salamu aleikum" as all muslims of today great each other... John 20:19-21-26, Luke 24:36, Matthew 10:12-13)

-Muslim frequently use the phrase "Insha Allah" (James 4:14-15)

-Charity (Leviticus 27:30-33)

-No interest (psalms 15:5, Exodus 22:25)

-Circumcision (Luke 2:21)

-Woman with veil on her hair (1corinthians 11:6)

-Taking of shoes in holy worship places (exodus 3:5 - Joshua 5:15 - Acts 7-33)

-Ablution before praying (Exodus 40:31-32)

-Following the lunar calendar (Isaiah 66:23)

-Pilgrimage (deuteronomy 12:5-7)


Had Jesus pbuh been among us today, there would be not a shred of doubt that he would be a muslim.
Tell me one christian that does ALL those things that Jesus pbuh did, while I can tell you a billion muslims who do.

 

[Nathaniel]

Christians believe that Jesus is god, right.
and christians also believe that being god, jesus was all-knowing and knew things in advance.

No, Jesus was not all-knowing, as he was fully man.

The simple reason Christians don't eat pork is because of what Jesus says in Mark 7:14-22 (TNIV):
Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside you can defile you by going into you. Rather, it is what comes out of you that defiles you."

After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters you from the outside can defile you? For it doesn't go into your heart but into your stomach, and then out of your body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

He went on: "What comes out of you is what defiles you. For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile you."