What Would Jesus (pbuh) Be?

[Supreme]

But if they are not following God's true guidance, can we really say they are truly submitting to him?

Yes, but each religion claims it's following God's true guidance. Therefore, should those people see themselves as Muslims?

 

[Nathaniel]

Bear in mind that the definition of a Muslim in the linguistic sense is a person who submits. In a religious context, it refers to a person who submits themselves to God. Therefore, it is absolutely correct in this sense to say that Jesus and Moses were Muslims.

Sure, we can take that definition, but then Zoroastrians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahais, and (dare I say it) Trinitarian Christians are all Muslims.

 

[Nathaniel]

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them."

So what did Jesus mean when he said that he came to "fulfill" the Law?

 

[Uthman]

Yes, but each religion claims it's following God's true guidance. Therefore, should those people see themselves as Muslims?

I suppose this is getting a little abstract, but if they claim to be submitting to God, then I suppose that they might call themselves Muslims in the linguistic sense since it basically means the same thing but in different languages. Within the sphere of Islamic theology though, they would obviously not be considered Muslims unless they follow what was revealed by Prophet Muhammad saws.

 

[Predator]

and (dare I say it) Trinitarian Christians are all Muslims.

Wrong


Surah Maidah Verse 73.

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.


If you were to worship only God the Father ( God Almighty) as the creator of the universe and say Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not GODs but are his creations and they are just servants of God then you are monothiest

A monotheist worships the One and only Uncreated being

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the created beings and thus cannot be called Gods

GOD Almighty is uncreated and how can he create another Uncreated ????

Look this is common sense, HE CANT CREATE ANOTHER GOD.

 

[Nathaniel]

Airforce,

Feel free to quote me completely out of context if you like. But if you'd actually like to engage with what I said, here is what you should have quoted:

Sure, we can take that definition, but then Zoroastrians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahais, and (dare I say it) Trinitarian Christians are all Muslims.

I'd also recommend that you do a little research about what Christians actually believe about God rather than saying what the Quran claims we believe. Christians do not believe that "Allah is one of three in a Trinity" - we believe that the One God (YHWH) has existed eternally as three Persons. We do not believe that the Son or the Spirit were created.

 

[mkh4JC]

I'd also recommend that you do a little research about what Christians actually believe about God rather than saying what the Quran claims we believe. Christians do not believe that "Allah is one of three in a Trinity" - we believe that the One God (YHWH) has existed eternally as three Persons. We do not believe that the Son or the Spirit were created.

Yes and perhaps for a person to come to some kind of understanding of the Trinity (though of course not complete understanding) I could say that the Bible says in the book of Genesis that God made man in his image and likeness. And as we are triune beings or threefold beings and still one, so too is he. As it goes; God=the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body. So just as we are threefold beings and are still one, so too is God. That's not all it means to be made in the image and likeness of God but it is one of the things it means.

 

[Supreme]

Airforce,

Feel free to quote me completely out of context if you like. But if you'd actually like to engage with what I said, here is what you should have quoted:



I'd also recommend that you do a little research about what Christians actually believe about God rather than saying what the Quran claims we believe. Christians do not believe that "Allah is one of three in a Trinity" - we believe that the One God (YHWH) has existed eternally as three Persons. We do not believe that the Son or the Spirit were created.

I would have to agree with him that Jesus was a created being, but the part of God that became incarnate as Jesus, that we now call the Son, is uncreated.

 

[Nathaniel]

I would have to agree with him that Jesus was a created being, but the part of God that became incarnate as Jesus, that we now call the Son, is uncreated.

He also said that the Holy Spirit was created, so I wanted to clarify the eternal nature of the Son and the Spirit. Of course, Jesus' human nature was necessarily finite.

 

[Supreme]

He also said that the Holy Spirit was created, so I wanted to clarify the eternal nature of the Son and the Spirit. Of course, Jesus' human nature was necessarily finite.

Oh yes, such a statement requires minimal understanding from even the least capable of folk. And saying the Holy Spirit is created is just a stupid thing to say. How can God be created? Such an idea is blasphemous in Christianity.

 

[glo]

I suppose we do similar things. We turn round and greet one another. The other day, the lovely tall black gentleman turned round to me, gave me a high five and told me that we were both one. It made me feel fantastic.

That's very interesting, Supreme. Your comment really got me wondering.

Which is the more important and meaningful?

• Wishing somebody the peace of God by saying it in a specific way, or
• Wishing somebody the peace of God by demonstrating it through attitude and actions (whatever they may be)?

Of course that's not to say that you cannot do both - say the words and demonstrate them through actions.
But I would suggest that simply saying the words, without the right intentions attached, would be meaningless ...

Any thoughts?

 

[جوري]

These are the things Jesus pbuh would do:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt"

{Matthew 26:39}

-Not eating pork (leviticus 11:7, Deuteronomy 14:8)

-Praying from dawn to evening (Psalms 113:3)

-Supplicating with hands raised (1 Kings 8:54, Nehemiah 8:6)

-No alcohol (Luke 1:15)

-Fasting (Matthew 4:2 - 5:6 - 6-16)

-Greetings (all prophets greeted by "peace be upon you (pbuh)!" Translation: "al salamu aleikum" as all muslims of today great each other... John 20:19-21-26, Luke 24:36, Matthew 10:12-13)

-Muslim frequently use the phrase "Insha Allah" (James 4:14-15)

-Charity (Leviticus 27:30-33)

-No interest (psalms 15:5, Exodus 22:25)

-Circumcision (Luke 2:21)

-Woman with veil on her hair (1corinthians 11:6)

-Taking of shoes in holy worship places (exodus 3:5 - Joshua 5:15 - Acts 7-33)

-Ablution before praying (Exodus 40:31-32)

-Following the lunar calendar (Isaiah 66:23)

-Pilgrimage (deuteronomy 12:5-7)


Had Jesus pbuh been among us today, there would be not a shred of doubt that he would be a muslim.
Tell me one christian that does ALL those things that Jesus pbuh did, while I can tell you a billion muslims who do.

very comprehensive and I enjoyed this alot.. a far cry from this norse god they are making him out to be, a humble servant who pretty much lived a Muslim life style..

Thank you

 

[Nathaniel]

And saying the Holy Spirit is created is just a stupid thing to say.

I wouldn't say stupid: that is simply what Islam teaches (that the Spirit is Jibreel). It is just a misinformed statement about what Christianity teaches.

 

[جوري]

I wouldn't say stupid: that is simply what Islam teaches (that the Spirit is Jibreel). It is just a misinformed statement about what Christianity teaches.

He is big on 'stupid' and 'IQ's, I assume it is a form of projection as it doesn't really pad the resume to speak of something so boastfully and be lacking it, but it is no matter..
Who is to say who is misinformed here? I rather think until such a time you can untangle the fiasco that is the trinity, the law of parsimony is the best to follow so Christianity doesn't come across so monolithic (as it does) to the rest of the strict monotheists!


all the best

 

[Supreme]

I wouldn't say stupid: that is simply what Islam teaches (that the Spirit is Jibreel). It is just a misinformed statement about what Christianity teaches.

They believe that the Holy Spirit we worship is the same as Angel Gabriel? This isn't surprising, as they demonstrably seem to believe that the Quranic Isa is the same Jesus Christians worship. It's more of an identity crisis to seperate beings than anything else.

That's very interesting, Supreme. Your comment really got me wondering.

Which is the more important and meaningful?

Wishing somebody the peace of God by saying it in a specific way, or
Wishing somebody the peace of God by demonstrating it through attitude and actions (whatever they may be)?

Of course that's not to say that you cannot do both - say the words and demonstrate them through actions.
But I would suggest that simply saying the words, without the right intentions attached, would be meaningless ...

Any thoughts?

I'd have to say the second thing glo.

 

[Predator]

Yes and perhaps for a person to come to some kind of understanding of the Trinity (though of course not complete understanding) I could say that the Bible says in the book of Genesis that God made man in his image and likeness. And as we are triune beings or threefold beings and still one, so too is he. As it goes; God=the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body. So just as we are threefold beings and are still one, so too is God. That's not all it means to be made in the image and likeness of God but it is one of the things it means.

1 eternal Father + 1 eternal Son + 1 eternal Holy spirit makes 3 Gods. Its a pagan theory and not a monotheistic one.

Monotheism is one person

I'd also recommend that you do a little research about what Christians actually believe about God rather than saying what the Quran claims we believe. Christians do not believe that "Allah is one of three in a Trinity" - we believe that the One God (YHWH) has existed eternally as three Persons.

Its your christians who needs to do some research with your bible about this fabrication ,see below how the 2 trinitarian stooges have proven that Trinity is no more than a man-made lie

http://www.answering-christianity.com/shamoun-winn_trinity_debate.htm



As the holy quran tell us

Holy Quran 4:171

" Dont say trinity , Desist it will be better for you , for Allah is one person"

 

[Nathaniel]

1 eternal Father + 1 eternal Son + 1 eternal Holy spirit makes 3 Gods. Its a pagan theory and not a monotheistic one.

Monotheism is one person

Mono=one
Theos=God

Hence monotheism means one God. Not one person. Monotheism is firmly taught by both the Old and the New Testaments, and part of the definition of the doctrine of the Trinity. But I can see that you don't wish to discuss what the doctrine of the Trinity is, and simply assert your personal beliefs about it - that is up to you, but don't expect any Christians to take your arguments seriously.

 

[glo]

1 eternal Father + 1 eternal Son + 1 eternal Holy spirit makes 3 Gods. Its a pagan theory and not a monotheistic one.

Monotheism is one person

If you must fit God into a mathematical formula, then try 1x1x1=1


Anyway, Nathaniel is the maths teacher!

 

[Predator]

But I can see that you don't wish to discuss what the doctrine of the Trinity is, and simply assert your personal beliefs about it - that is up to you, but don't expect any Christians to take your arguments seriously.

The Muslim world should congratulate the "Fifty cooperating denominations" of
Christendom and their Brains Trust the "Thirty-two scholars of the highest eminence"
for bringing their Holy Bible a degree nearer to the Qur-ánic truth.

"CHRISTIAN MES-A-MATHICS"
3. "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, the WORD, and
the HOLY GHOST: and these three are one." (1st Epistle of John 5:7 - AV)

This verse is the closest approximation to what the Christians call their Holy Trinity in the
encyclopaedia called the BIBLE. This key-stone of the Christian faith has also been scrapped from the RSV 1952 without even a semblance of explanation. It has been a pious fraud all along and well-deservedly has it been expunged in the RSV for the English speaking people. But for the 1499 remaining language groups of the world who read the Christian concoctions in their mother tongues, the fraud remains. These people will never know the truth until the Day of Judgement. However, we Muslims must again congratulate the galaxy of D.D.'s who have been honest enough to eliminate a lie from the bible bring it closer to the Quran

 

[Nathaniel]

If you must fit God into a mathematical formula, then try 1x1x1=1


Anyway, Nathaniel is the maths teacher!

Sorry glo, but I hate the 1x1x1=1 thing, it is absolute garbage.

*Nerd hat on*
The point is that "person" and God are different categories. God={Father, Son, Spirit} (using set notation) is the best "equation" one can come up, but this set needs to be endowed with a number of relational properties.
*Nerd hat off*