WHATS your views on Sharia Laws

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But surely, a country must have one system or another? If it's Sharia law, would it not be applied to all citizens, whatever their religion?
The crime would still be crime regardless of religious affiliation. The punishment however is different.


Yes - but inevitably, innocent people will be convicted by mistake and they will be executed too.
I agree wholeheartedly, and is exactly why in Islam there has to be an extrmely high level of proof of the criminal activity in addition to several get-out clauses, which include:the victims being able to essentially pardon the criminal or the judge themselves can choose administer a less harsh punishment (such as a fine or imprisonment etc) or simply not administer a punishment at all - it depends on the case and what is deemed to be just.

In Islamic courts, the judge has a lot of power - equal to that of his responsibility. Since the whole purpose of a legal system is to ensure justice, in the society, this power and responsbility should not be overlooked.
 
I agree wholeheartedly, and is exactly why in Islam there has to be an extrmely high level of proof of the criminal activity in addition to several get-out clauses, which include:the victims being able to essentially pardon the criminal or the judge themselves can choose administer a less harsh punishment (such as a fine or imprisonment etc) or simply not administer a punishment at all - it depends on the case and what is deemed to be just.
Interesting. So, as in the current example, can the judge choose not to punish the guilty party by stoning?
 
I wonder if anyone can estimate for me - what percentage of modern day Muslims agree with this law (stoning for adultery)? In how many countries is this part of the present legal system?

You're still failing to see Islam for what it is. Islam is not democracy. It never was and it never will be. The One who created us is the one who decides our laws. When Islam says something we reply with, "We hear, and we obey." (Quran 28:285)

Instead of focusing on the branches, focus on who Muslims worship. We can go around in circles all day long about my laws and your laws but neither of these laws will be followed until we know where they came from. Therefore, when you come to learn that the Islamic laws come from the One and Only Almighty, then is there any dispute left?
 
You're still failing to see Islam for what it is. Islam is not democracy. It never was and it never will be.
No, I totally get that. But even other Muslims seem to hold different views about this, so what chance have I got?
 
Interesting. So, as in the current example, can the judge choose not to punish the guilty party by stoning?

In theory yes. Practically of course, it all depends on whether or not administering the punishment would lead to social justice (i.e. prevention of similar crimes or deterance) or social injustice, (i.e. public outcry) which would clearly be worse for society as a whole because now the justice system would become unjust.

It's a balancing act and sometimes the law will have to fall one way or the other. That responsibility alone is why the Judge in an Islamic court has so great a power (along with the stuff I stated previous post, he can even overrule a prior decision)

Is the system flawless? No - it's always going to be possible that the wrong person is convicted, we're human afterall ;). What matters most is this system helps keep that number as low as possible whilst still creating justice amongst society.
 
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@ck1986

Are you a Quranite? meaning, do you reject hadeeths? and only follow the Quran?

Scimi
 
I wonder if anyone can estimate for me - what percentage of modern day Muslims agree with this law (stoning for adultery)? In how many countries is this part of the present legal system?

It is incumbent on all Muslims to accept and submit to the laws set out by Allah subhanahu wa ta'alaa in their entirety. We cannot pick and chose which ones we like and which we are not so keen on - if we did so we would be leaving the fold of Islam by questioning Allah's commands. The Shariah has been provided by Allah subhanahu wa ta'alaa to ensure a safe and peaceful society, for which we are immensely grateful and thank Him every day. His wisdom is beyond our comprehension, so we accept His laws in full without question. In the case of adultery, Allah has been very clear that it is illegal and has prescribed a specific punishment that must be carried out provided that strict evidential standards have been met - it cannot be reduced or changed by a judge. Like many Islamic punishments it is always administered in public so that people can see justice done. Although such a punishment may seem harsh, there is no doubt that all Muslims welcome the protection it provides to society as a whole through its deterrent effect, which is so strong that it has only rarely been carried out in 1400+ years. Be under no illusion that in the eyes of Muslims, the suffering caused by adulterers to their families and to society as a whole more than justifies the punishment, remembering that in Islam much greater emphasis is placed on supporting the victims of wrongdoing than the perpetrators.

I am not sure of the answer to your second question, but it is well known that there are very few if any countries that apply Shariah in full at this time.
 
Thank you for your replies. I am confused between this:

In the case of adultery, Allah has been very clear that it is illegal and has prescribed a specific punishment that must be carried out provided that strict evidential standards have been met - it cannot be reduced or changed by a judge.

...and this, in answer to my question could the judge administer a different punishment in the case of adultery:

In theory yes. Practically of course, it all depends on whether or not administering the punishment would lead to social justice (i.e. prevention of similar crimes or deterance) or social injustice, (i.e. public outcry) which would clearly be worse for society as a whole because now the justice system would become unjust.
 
The judge (qadi) could only change the punishment if the full evidential standards for applying the hadd (divine prescribed punishment) were not met, e.g. if only one instead of the required four reliable witnesses was provided, in which case he could award a lesser, discretionary (ta'zir) punishment of his choice.
 
The judge (qadi) could only change the punishment if the full evidential standards for applying the hadd (divine prescribed punishment) were not met, e.g. if only one instead of the required four reliable witnesses was provided, in which case he could award a lesser, discretionary (ta'zir) punishment of his choice.

In which case, the judge's discretion is quite limited.

Does this mean, if someone were found guilty of adultery based on other types of evidence (eg DNA, a video, a confession), would they receive a different punishment from someone found guilty in the Qu'ranic way (4 witnesses etc)? Does the stoning (the punishment) depend on the evidence used to convict?
 
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...
...and this, in answer to my question could the judge administer a different punishment in the case of adultery:
I should clarify: that outcome is going to be extremely rare, especially in adultery cases because of the requirement of 4 witness testimony. The scenario I was talking about was a hypothetical (as in worst possible case scenario, only then would the social justice vs social injustice be potentially applicable). So please accept my full apologies for the confusion.

Ummshareef is correct.
 
Therefore, when you come to learn that the Islamic laws come from the One and Only Almighty, then is there any dispute left?


Muslims use this as a way to convince (for example) Jews and Christians, those that believe in god, that the Islamic laws must be right.

Muslims problem is that the number of Athiests is growing and growing. You will need some other argument to convince us.

.
 
That's some really faulty logic right there.
 
Muslims use this as a way to convince (for example) Jews and Christians, those that believe in god, that the Islamic laws must be right.

Muslims problem is that the number of Athiests is growing and growing. You will need some other argument to convince us.

.

This is coming from the guy who thinks London is in France?.. :haha: How about you work on your fifth grade geography lessons and French 101? I think anything else will be fully over your head!

best,
 
In which case, the judge's discretion is quite limited.

Does this mean, if someone were found guilty of adultery based on other types of evidence (eg DNA, a video, a confession), would they receive a different punishment from someone found guilty in the Qu'ranic way (4 witnesses etc)? Does the stoning (the punishment) depend on the evidence used to convict?

Yes, the judges discretion is very limited. Allah subhanahu wa ta'alaa has provided His guidance alHumdulillah, which we as Muslims accept and embrace as with all matters. A confession or four adult male Muslim witnesses to the act of intercourse are the only two acceptable types of evidence for the prescribed punishment to be applied. If other types of evidence were presented, such as DNA or a video, it would be up to the judge's discretion as to what punishment to apply.
 
-We can go around in circles all day long

-about my laws and your laws

-but neither of these laws will be followed until we know where they came from.

-Therefore, when you come to learn that the Islamic laws come from the One and Only Almighty, then is there any dispute left?


I thought I understood what this means. The folks above have said I don't understand what it means.

Could you please clarify what it means.
 
I thought I understood what this means. The folks above have said I don't understand what it means.

Could you please clarify what it means.

Seeing as you've made the last quote up and attributed it to me, I have no idea what it is that you seek clarification in.
 
Before anyone tells me - I understand that for Muslims, if it’s in the Qu’ran that’s the end of the story and it cannot be questioned. Please read the following comments with the understanding that they are from the point of view of a non-Muslim westerner. (Or don’t read it, if you don’t care about what non believers think). It is said that westerners don’t understand Sharia Law and react unfairly against it – well, I am trying to understand it but this thread has raised many questions for me.

I have seen people say Sharia Law is not so different from US law. It has also been suggested in many western countries that Sharia Law could exist alongside western law.

When I look at all the answers in this thread, it seems to me that in fact they are fundamentally different and it would be very difficult to have them co-exist.

Firstly, as Ummshareef makes clear, it is possible in Sharia to have a different punishment for the same offense. This depends on the nature of the evidence, not the degree of the crime. This is a fundamental difference with western law and (if it were not in the Qu’ran) would be logically and morally indefensible.

Secondly, in Sharia the judge has huge power over the examination and verdict, but not much over the sentence. This seems to me to be the wrong way round. For a single man (and it is always a man) to have sole responsibility for assessing the evidence is dangerous. No one man can be free of individual prejudices and weaknesses. He may also struggle to understand some of the recent aspects of evidence (eg forensics). At the same time, one murder is not the same as another murder. There are degrees of severity (eg a crime of passion). To have no flexibility in the punishment is not human justice (even if it may be divine justice).

Thirdly (and this is a question not a statement), is there a right of appeal in Sharia? I assume not, because that would seem to undermine the crucial sense of certainty, that it is Allah’s law being handed down, not man’s. But perhaps there is a mechanism for appeal?

Fourthly, i don't see how joint law could work where some of the parties were Muslims, and some not. If a Muslim killed a non Muslim, what law do you judge him by? If you use Sharia, then the victim's non Muslim relatives would be given the option of giving him executed, or blood money etc. As a non Muslim, I don't want this option because I don't believe in capital punishment, and I certainly don't want to be directly responsible for firing the bullet. The alternative, the idea of accepting blood money for a life, to me is insulting and degrading in the first degree. So I would have to just let him go without punishment - but I don't want that either. I would be denied justice.

Fifthly, there is the nature of some of the punishments. Most of the negative publicity about Sharia has concentrated on this (because journalists like sensationalism). If we take the specific example of adultery, where the punishment is stoning, to a western person this feeds into a notion that Sharia Law is indeed medieval and barbaric, despite what some commentators claim. If I remember rightly that was the punishment administered to a number of women in Afghanistan during Taliban rule, when the main football stadium was converted into a kind of execution theme park and they half buried them in the middle of the pitch. This public perversion of a place of sport and recreation was bound to have a lasting impact on views. Football was banned, but stoning gets on tv.

Sixthly, when you look at the detail of some of these laws, it gets very confusing. For adultery, I learn that four male, Islamic witnesses are required to bear witness. This obviously strikes many people, both believers and non believers, as an extraordinary and unlikely requirement. The conditions of evidence seem random, arbitrary. It’s like saying, murder is a crime, but only if it happens on a Friday.

Non believers can simply react to this by saying this law is medieval or incomplete. For believers, this isn’t an option because the Qu’ran must be perfect. Therefore many believers have taken a different approach. They chose to interpret this passage as giving requirements which are deliberately impossible. In other words, this punishment is there in the Qu’ran, but only in a way that makes it very unlikely ever to be used. This is a very odd way indeed to make laws.

It seems to me that this is an interpretation of the passage in the Qu’ran, not what the Qu’ran itself definitively says.

It’s difficult to think of another reason why the Qu’ran has in fact laid down such an odd requirement as the 4 witnesses. Perhaps we could understand the word ‘witness’ in a broader sense (ie someone who bears witness, who gives evidence) rather than being strictly present at the scene of the crime. (But I am no scholar of Arabic.) Or perhaps in seventh century world, privacy was much harder (houses close together, tents etc) so witnesses might often be close by without it the act being a deliberate exhibitionism on their part. Who knows? Of course I’m just interpreting – but surely, when people say that this passage describes conditions that are deliberately impossible, they are also just speculating? They are ascribing a motive to this passage which may or may not have been present. The difficulty comes when you try to construct an entire legal system, covering all circumstances and all crimes, only from passages directly quoted in the Qu'ran, or possibly hadiths as well.

On a separate note, I would agree that western law has many flaws too (for instance I don’t like the US plea bargain system, or jury challenge). But these have the advantage of being capable of improvement, whereas Sharia Law cannot be changed even if it seems to be outdated.

I also think Sharia Law does have some advantages over western law especially in certain environments – I don’t think it’s all bad by any means. However, I understand that I have to buy into the whole of Sharia or nothing, I can't pick and choose. So that’s why I ask the questions above.
 
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I found a good link that explains the significance of the Shariah Law, but as of right now I cannot post any links; and the reason is probably because I'm fairly knew to this forum. Once I get the permission, I will post the link here.
 
I found a good link that explains the significance of the Shariah Law, but as of right now I cannot post any links; and the reason is probably because I'm fairly knew to this forum. Once I get the permission, I will post the link here.

Sorry for the typo: "knew". It should have been "new" I was typing quick and didn't check.
 
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