Yvonne Ridley’s Speech at EWAMY, cairo

[Chechnya]

I aint no public relations expert but I for sure no that aint a good idea.

the idea is to stop the west defining us into different categories - good muslims and not so good muslims. and more importantly it shows support for our mujahideen brothers and sisters.

when aslan maskhadov was dubbed an extremist - it was russias attempt to isolate him but eveyone stuck by him basically saying if he's an extremist then we all are.

You mean make no moral judgements and allow others to define Islam for you?

can you please expand.

i didnt understand your point

 

[Keltoi]

the idea is to stop the west defining us into different categories - good muslims and not so good muslims. and more importantly it shows support for our mujahideen brothers and sisters.

when aslan maskhadov was dubbed an extremist - it was russias attempt to isolate him but eveyone stuck by him basically saying if he's an extremist then we all are.



can you please expand.

i didnt understand your point

My point is that it sounds as if you would rather make no moral judgements about the actions of fellow Muslims. If they blow up children or commit suicide in bomb attacks that should be defended because they are Muslims. That seems to suggest you make no moral judgements about the actions of those who call themselves Muslims.

 

[Chechnya]

My point is that it sounds as if you would rather make no moral judgements about the actions of fellow Muslims. If they blow up children or commit suicide in bomb attacks that should be defended because they are Muslims. That seems to suggest you make no moral judgements about the actions of those who call themselves Muslims.

I dont know how you drew those conclusions from my statement :rollseyes

 

[Keltoi]

I dont know how you drew those conclusions from my statement :rollseyes

You stated that those who commit un-Islamic acts are simply "misguided", and that Muslims should call themselves extremists and support the "mujahadeen" in Chechnya, Iraq, and Afghanistan. That seems to shrug off any un-Islamic acts as "misguided" while still supporting those same un-Islamic acts.

 

[Umar001]

Since the west uses the word "extremist" for some of the best Muslims i.e Mujahideen in Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan - we should call ourselves extremists too to show solidarity with our brothers and sisters.

So the Prophet peace be upon him warned against extremist, and now we want to call ourself extremist because the west, according to some, has labelled the best men extremist, if anything we should say they are not extremist and neither are we.

I find it abit silly to say 'We are extremist' even if it is to show solidarity, when that is a 'title' the prophet, peace be uponhim, wanred against, even if it was for a diff meaning, as some say, wouldn't it be better if we just cleared the people accused of being extreme from that title?

 

[Sis786]

Man this forum aint changed, Im going to give a simple answer and say "Great Speech"

 

[Chechnya]

You stated that those who commit un-Islamic acts are simply "misguided", and that Muslims should call themselves extremists and support the "mujahadeen" in Chechnya, Iraq, and Afghanistan. That seems to shrug off any un-Islamic acts as "misguided" while still supporting those same un-Islamic acts.

How are you in support of something when you call it misguided? :rollseyes

The very word suggests that it is something wrong, bad and so on. So using the word is recognition in itself that a certain action was wrong and unislamic - it certainly isnt "support".

So the Prophet peace be upon him warned against extremist, and now we want to call ourself extremist because the west, according to some, has labelled the best men extremist, if anything we should say they are not extremist and neither are we.

Im not sure you have understood the point. Certainly the prophet (saw) warned us away from extremism.

But the western-led media label of "extremism" is totally different to what the prophet (saw) mentions. In the west sometimes a sister who wears a niqab is an extremist or a brother that has a large beard - or someone who fights for self-determination and freedom.

So in this case rather than let the western leaders, media etc divide us - we should show that we are one and accept a label for ourselves that they have bestowed on those who they aim wrongly to malign.

 

[Umar001]

Im not sure you have understood the point. Certainly the prophet (saw) warned us away from extremism.

But the western-led media label of "extremism" is totally different to what the prophet (saw) mentions. In the west sometimes a sister who wears a niqab is an extremist or a brother that has a large beard - or someone who fights for self-determination and freedom.

So in this case rather than let the western leaders, media etc divide us - we should show that we are one and accept a label for ourselves that they have bestowed on those who they aim wrongly to malign.

I have understood you but you have misunderstood my answer.

Imagine some of us said we were extremist, ok, we took the label, then 1. Non-Muslims might be reluctant to speak to us. 2. Muslims themselves will hear us say 'im an extremist' and becuase they read the prophet's speech those muslims might keep away from us.

So rather than do a stupid thing and accept a label which will just bring negative points, would it not be better to say 'No we are not extremist, the people are fighting for justice thats not extreme' blah blah blah!!

 

[Chechnya]

I have understood you but you have misunderstood my answer.

Imagine some of us said we were extremist, ok, we took the label, then 1. Non-Muslims might be reluctant to speak to us. 2. Muslims themselves will hear us say 'im an extremist' and becuase they read the prophet's speech those muslims might keep away from us.

Note that when refering to the non-muslims, i mentioned only their leaders, media etc. - the people are different matter. From my experience most dont fall into the trap of seeing Muslims other than what they are. However if there are some who will shy away from us then so be it - supporting in every way we can our people is more important to us than trying to impress a certain setion of the non-muslim population.

As for Muslims themselves, one expects that we all know that the laughable western interpretration of extremism is NOT what the prophet (saw) was refering too - so i dont see any problems there. Most Muslims are aware that sisters who war niqab, hijab are not extreme, most brothers with beards are not extreme etc.

So rather than do a stupid thing and accept a label which will just bring negative points, would it not be better to say 'No we are not extremist, the people are fighting for justice thats not extreme' blah blah blah!!

Very noble idea but in practice quite useless in my opinion. We have been doing it for a long time while our "extremist" brothers and sisters are being killed - it hasnt changed anything.
Aslan Maskhadov ( i use him as an example because in my opinion he is the best leader the muslim world has had in the last few decades) was eventually killed for being an extremist - all the whining and bleating of Muslims that he actually wasnt an extremist didnt help. Nor does it look like it is going to help in the future.
So rather than trying to impress the non-muslims with THEIR version of moderation we should stick to our brother and sisters inshalah who are being maligned.

 

[Umar001]

Note that when refering to the non-muslims, i mentioned only their leaders, media etc. - the people are different matter. From my experience most dont fall into the trap of seeing Muslims other than what they are. However if there are some who will shy away from us then so be it - supporting in every way we can our people is more important to us than trying to impress a certain setion of the non-muslim population.

As for Muslims themselves, one expects that we all know that the laughable western interpretration of extremism is NOT what the prophet (saw) was refering too - so i dont see any problems there. Most Muslims are aware that sisters who war niqab, hijab are not extreme, most brothers with beards are not extreme etc.

I feel I should put my position on everything I disagree with in your post but I wont since that in my eyes will only result in waste of time.

You have misunderstood, maybe from your end 'extremist' means just those who wear niqab and beards, but rather your mistaken, if this was the case we would not see anyone with niqabs and beards, do you think the west would let extremist run around? So your view is faulty. I know Muslims who do not see neither niqab nor the beard as extremist points but do consider other things as extremist, so when we say we are extremist those muslim would be concerned.

Very noble idea but in practice quite useless in my opinion. We have been doing it for a long time while our "extremist" brothers and sisters are being killed - it hasnt changed anything.
Aslan Maskhadov ( i use him as an example because in my opinion he is the best leader the muslim world has had in the last few decades) was eventually killed for being an extremist - all the whining and bleating of Muslims that he actually wasnt an extremist didnt help. Nor does it look like it is going to help in the future.
So rather than trying to impress the non-muslims with THEIR version of moderation we should stick to our brother and sisters inshalah who are being maligned.

Who spoke about non-muslims' version of moderation, we should be moderate Muslims according tot he Quran and Sunnah, full stop. Calling ourselves extremist will only serve to further alienate us, if you were telling me to done something according tothe Qu'ran and Sunnah that would alienate us then I would not mind but this is your own 'idea'. Rather then going around say 'We are extremist like our brothers an sisters in so and so, but at the same time we are moderate according to the Quran and Sunnah' it would be much better to explain that we are moderate Muslims and we hold on to everything Islam teaches us and Islam teaches us not to be extreme and then explain what extreme means.

Please do not try to resolve to your own methods of naming ourselves something that is not entirely true in order to bring about some sort of unity with others, what unity will be brought about will be non-Muslims just thinking that we are extreme like those who kill innocent men and women and children, unless you personally agree with that, do you?

Your brother Eesa

 

[Chechnya]

I feel I should put my position on everything I disagree with in your post but I wont since that in my eyes will only result in waste of time.

You have misunderstood, maybe from your end 'extremist' means just those who wear niqab and beards, but rather your mistaken, if this was the case we would not see anyone with niqabs and beards, do you think the west would let extremist run around? So your view is faulty. I know Muslims who do not see neither niqab nor the beard as extremist points but do consider other things as extremist, so when we say we are extremist those muslim would be concerned.

I'll reply in detail later inshallah - just some quick points before i go.

There are many misguided Muslims around - the condemnation of any wrong action should be enough for Muslims without having to resort to the western-used names which they use on anyone they dont happen to like.

Going by your statement it seems that Muslims are a gullible lot who dont have the brains to figure out that showing support/solidarity with so-called "extremist" brothers and sisters is not the extremism mentioned by the prophet (saw). If that is the case maybe the same people get "concerned" and start to believe when the west tells them that maskhadov is an extremist or sadulayev is a terrorist - very naive and i have never seen such naivety in any muslim yet.

Who spoke about non-muslims' version of moderation, we should be moderate Muslims according tot he Quran and Sunnah, full stop. Calling ourselves extremist will only serve to further alienate us, if you were telling me to done something according tothe Qu'ran and Sunnah that would alienate us then I would not mind but this is your own 'idea'. Rather then going around say 'We are extremist like our brothers an sisters in so and so, but at the same time we are moderate according to the Quran and Sunnah' it would be much better to explain that we are moderate Muslims and we hold on to everything Islam teaches us and Islam teaches us not to be extreme and then explain what extreme means.

Please do not try to resolve to your own methods of naming ourselves something that is not entirely true in order to bring about some sort of unity with others, what unity will be brought about will be non-Muslims just thinking that we are extreme like those who kill innocent men and women and children, unless you personally agree with that, do you?

Your brother Eesa

I spoke about the non-muslims version of moderate and extreme because nowadays more often than not it is they who are diving us into good and bad categories.
We should not let ourselves be divided in this way especially as the western interpretation of extreme in many cases is describing some of the best amongst us - i have no problems associating a word to myself that they use on our betters - not because i believe the word is correct butbecause i feel it is a way to show support for these brothers and sisters who are increasingly being isolated and killed.

Personally i would rather accept the western label of extreme than the label of moderate.
To them as they have repeatedly shown a moderate is someone like Ahmed Kadyrov, Musharaf, Irshad Manji etc. - now accepthing THAT is something that certainly will bring disunity.
I would much rather be associated with "extremists" such as Maskhadov, Sadullayev, even Basayev (though i disagree with some of his actions).

Salam

 

[Umar001]

My Dear Brother,

I love you for the sake of Allah but I cannot help but disagree with your view and it feels that you cannot see the point I am trying to state.

Going by your statement it seems that Muslims are a gullible lot who dont have the brains to figure out that showing support/solidarity with so-called "extremist" brothers and sisters is not the extremism mentioned by the prophet (saw). If that is the case maybe the same people get "concerned" and start to believe when the west tells them that maskhadov is an extremist or sadulayev is a terrorist - very naive and i have never seen such naivety in any muslim yet.

So what your saying is that the Muslims who do not want to be labelled extremist and do not want to be unified with extremist are 'gullible' 'who dont have brains' but you see, while I do agree that some people called extremist in the news, I cant think of any actually, but for the benefit of doubt, some people in the news might not be extreme in the western view and islamic view, the vast majority, from what we hear in the news are extreme, for example, Osama Bin Laden, IF he agrees with 9/11 would that not be extreme in ISlam? What about others who condone suicide bombing and killing of innocents and kidnapping and beheading, are those not extreme by Islamic views? These are the widest images of Extreme Muslims which are shown on TV!! This is why those who you say seem 'gullible' and so forth.

We should not let ourselves be divided in this way especially as the western interpretation of extreme in many cases is describing some of the best amongst us - i have no problems associating a word to myself that they use on our betters - not because i believe the word is correct butbecause i feel it is a way to show support for these brothers and sisters who are increasingly being isolated and killed.

So instead of defending their honour both Islamically and Westernly, i.e. Islamically showing that those brothers are not extreme in their religion and westernly showing others that they are not extreme by their definition, you choose to put yourself in the same catagory as those brothers, yet do you think if those brothers are asked 'Are you extremist' they will say yes?


I don't see much point in carrying the conversation, I havent seen any good reason for muslims to call themselves extremist, if they want to unifiy with those who are wrongly labelled extremist then all they have to do is clear those charges.

 

[Sabbir_1]

Mashallah this sister is amazing she speaks from the heart not afraid to speak the truth., may allah bless her.. Subhanallah where are the bros and sisters standing up for the muslims.. We need more yvonne ridleys, and george galloways..

 

[Keltoi]

Mashallah this sister is amazing she speaks from the heart not afraid to speak the truth., may allah bless her.. Subhanallah where are the bros and sisters standing up for the muslims.. We need more yvonne ridleys, and george galloways..

George Galloway is a Muslim? I thought he was just a shameless self-promoting BS artist.

 

[Chechnya]

So what your saying is that the Muslims who do not want to be labelled extremist and do not want to be unified with extremist are 'gullible' 'who dont have brains' but you see, while I do agree that some people called extremist in the news, I cant think of any actually, but for the benefit of doubt, some people in the news might not be extreme in the western view and islamic view, the vast majority, from what we hear in the news are extreme, for example, Osama Bin Laden, IF he agrees with 9/11 would that not be extreme in ISlam? What about others who condone suicide bombing and killing of innocents and kidnapping and beheading, are those not extreme by Islamic views? These are the widest images of Extreme Muslims which are shown on TV!! This is why those who you say seem 'gullible' and so forth.

If someone goes around beheading people - then he should be condemned by Muslims and be shown to be misguided, unislamic etc.
This would clearly show our position on it and that for me and most Muslims would be enough.
But to turn your point on itself the same could be said of the "moderates" - the moderates that are portrayed on our screens are the likes of Kadyrov, Musharaf, BMF etc.. These are the widest images of moderate Muslims which are shown. Majority of Muslims wont want tobe labelled moderate due to this interpretation of "moderate" where scumbags and murderers of Muslims are hailed.

Of course the only difference is many times the word "extreme" used by the western media is in reference to the best ones amongst us (hence us trying to stick with them) whereas the word "moderate" seems to be for any tom dick or harry that they can find who agrees with them.

So instead of defending their honour both Islamically and Westernly, i.e. Islamically showing that those brothers are not extreme in their religion and westernly showing others that they are not extreme by their definition, you choose to put yourself in the same catagory as those brothers, yet do you think if those brothers are asked 'Are you extremist' they will say yes?


I don't see much point in carrying the conversation, I havent seen any good reason for muslims to call themselves extremist, if they want to unifiy with those who are wrongly labelled extremist then all they have to do is clear those charges.

As i said earlier the idea seems good but in practice in my opinon it is useless.

Let me say that once upon a time i agreed with what you say and would have agreed with all your points but i think as time goes on we have to change our thinking patterns according to the situation we find ourselves in.

This has been tried for a long time - indeed some Muslims have even become apologists over this but it hasnt changed anything - people are still dying, Aslan Maskhadov was still killed for being an "extremist" despite our bleating, nothing has been achived by this except maybe we have further isolated those we sought originally to help.

I agree with you, Brother - this isnt going anywhere. You have your opinion and i have mine. While i understand your sentiments i disagree with your points.
May Allah (swt) bless you.

 

[Hijrah]

I'd just like to telly you guys though, the mention of sayyid qutb there is questionable, I was a big fan of his, I'm not very sure anymore, check the refutations section on this subject.