If God existed…Question to an atheist! first of many to follow

[Ayesha Rana]

Why do you keep insisting it is by chance when it is no such thing? Evolution has random inputs - variation - but it is not by chance per se. Imagine a flock of gazelles. If they died at random there would be no evolution as such. But if a cheetah came along and ate all the slow ones - that would not be by chance. The cheetah would eat the ones it could catch, and the ones that were too fast for it would escape. Over time the gazelles would get faster and faster as the slow ones would not have any children and the fast ones would. Where is the chance here?

Evolution may not be by chance but do you claim that the creation of the Universe was by chance? What is the chance of having 10 marbles labelled 1 to 10 in a bag and being able to pick out each one in order with your eyes closed. The chance is 1 out of millions. So what is the chance of the Universe falling together by accident. There must be a divine power behind it and that power is God. Subhanallah.
Peace.

 

[HeiGou]

Evolution may not be by chance but do you claim that the creation of the Universe was by chance? What is the chance of having 10 marbles labelled 1 to 10 in a bag and being able to pick out each one in order with your eyes closed. The chance is 1 out of millions. So what is the chance of the Universe falling together by accident. There must be a divine power behind it and that power is God.

I don't think enough is known about the creation of the Universe to be sure. The chances are 1 in 10x9x8x7x6x5x4x3x2x1 or 1 in 182,880 which is better than 1 in a million. But you are asking the wrong question - suppose you pull out of a bag 10 marbles labels one to ten. Suppose the order you get them in is 5, 7, 2, 4, 8, 9, 1, 3, 10, 6. Now, with those marbles in your hand, what is the chance that you are hold ten marbles in that precise order? Well precisely one because they are in your hand in that order. The Universe exists already. The marbles have been drawn. We are here, me at my desk, you wherever you are. If it was possible to "rewind the tape" and go back to the Big Bang and start all over again and billions of years later end up with me here and you there, that would be aa miracle. But obviously I am here and you are there or I wouldn't be writing this and you wouldn't be reading this.

 

[HeiGou]

Survival of the fittest is not by chance, its a system which fits perfectly! Imagine if the system was flawed, things would have just blown completely out of proportion. I dont think humans or "chance" has its way of creatin such a system.

Don't tell me you are becoming an Evolutionist! This forum is for you to convert me not the other way around - I'd be banned in seconds if I actually convinced someone!

Humans do use "natural selection" to find "good enough" solutions where no perfect solution exists. Computers do models and test the model, change it slightly and test it again, and if it is better, change it slightly and test it again. After enough tests they tend to have a pretty good solution.

 

[IceQueen~]

I don't think enough is known about the creation of the Universe to be sure. The chances are 1 in 10x9x8x7x6x5x4x3x2x1 or 1 in 182,880 which is better than 1 in a million. But you are asking the wrong question - suppose you pull out of a bag 10 marbles labels one to ten. Suppose the order you get them in is 5, 7, 2, 4, 8, 9, 1, 3, 10, 6. Now, with those marbles in your hand, what is the chance that you are hold ten marbles in that precise order? Well precisely one because they are in your hand in that order. The Universe exists already. The marbles have been drawn. We are here, me at my desk, you wherever you are. If it was possible to "rewind the tape" and go back to the Big Bang and start all over again and billions of years later end up with me here and you there, that would be aa miracle. But obviously I am here and you are there or I wouldn't be writing this and you wouldn't be reading this.

yeah but who brought the 'marbles' in this sense into being in the first place?

 

[Ayesha Rana]

I don't think enough is known about the creation of the Universe to be sure. The chances are 1 in 10x9x8x7x6x5x4x3x2x1 or 1 in 182,880 which is better than 1 in a million.

Sorry i heard it on a lecture. Mabey my ears weren't open properly.
But yeah, even then like Marge1 said where did the marbles come from. Who made the elements? I don't know how people can possibly think they were not created by God

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Don't tell me you are becoming an Evolutionist! This forum is for you to convert me not the other way around - I'd be banned in seconds if I actually convinced someone!

Humans do use "natural selection" to find "good enough" solutions where no perfect solution exists. Computers do models and test the model, change it slightly and test it again, and if it is better, change it slightly and test it again. After enough tests they tend to have a pretty good solution.

eace:

lol funny guy , you are nowhere close to convertin me . I'd sooner believe pigs can fly . Yes and someone is CONTROLLING the tests, who is that? The man who created the Tests! so the test has a creator RIGHT? Or is it testing on its own? :? lol

eace:
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[root]

My take on the universe is this:

A single existent universe really does put science onto it's back foot, afterall you have one chance and one chance only to "get it right". Of course we just don't know if this universe is indeed ours and recent research offers tantalising suggestions as noted here:

"At present the conventional view is that all of space, time, matter and energy began at a single point, which then expanded and cooled, leaving the Universe as it is today," said Professor Paul Steinhardt of Princeton University, New Jersey.

"However, this new theory suggests that there's a continuous cycle of universes, with each a repeat of the last, but not an exact replica.

"It can be thought of as a child of the previous universe."

I actually think that multiple unverse "multiverse" makes logical sense even if by historical repetition. We once thought our Sun was a single entity, our planet was the only planet. Our solar system the only solar system. Last but not least our Galaxy was a single entity. Each time throughout the years and as scientific discovery is made we have come to realise this to be so wrong. Logically, I believe the same fate will become of the idea our universe is a single entity and too will the multiverse give ample chance for the criteria such as our universe to come about.

It's a numbers game afterall, to me this is a logical approach.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

A beaver was at birth denied access to "beaver behaviour" when it became an adult it was moved and held in isolation, an empty room with four walls. Within a few days the said beaver started doing what beavers do, it started building a damn. It mimicked getting mud and debri and built a dam that must wholly have been constructed in it's mind, it spent most of it's time building it's very own Damn. Deprived of any raw material and any flowing water the Beaver acted on pure "instictive" action which is believed to be genticly inherited since the best beaver damn species were the one's who reproduced. A beaver, like the ant does not need instructions on how to build a damn or a home, they don't need instructions on what role they must fulfil it's all handed to them at the moment they are concieved when the genes of the parents lay in genes most of the characteristics and instincts for the new life.....

eace:

Look at what a complex pattern of behaviour your have just described. Look at how things change, look at how the beaver knows how to survive! You are so knowledgable root, how comes you dont question how all this comes to be?

eace:
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[root]

Look at what a complex pattern of behaviour your have just described. Look at how things change

Scotland gets really cold in the winter, if I throw water outside on a really cold night the water will form a highly complex frozen water crystal of great complexity. Have I just created it or has a spontanious chemical reaction occured? If water "drips" from a rock at night and freezes, will it not form a complex structure because "I" the creator of the first water crystal did not physically throw the water?

besides which, I cannot subscribe to "creationism" no matter how I logically look at the biggest problem for creationists namely matching RVI insertions within primates. Lastly, I firmly believe that "absolute proof" is beyond us so why would I accept "absolute proof" from a souce (religion) that is often shown not to be absolute proof. can you ever trust a lier who claims he never lies? The salvation for me is that science will only offer a probability, it is for me and me alone to logically decide as best I can what the probable fate of myself will be and how I probably came to be in the first place.

It is this uncertainty that drives me to continue to scutinise the scientific discoveries of the day and not scritinise the recent religous writings of yesterday. Progress is ahead of us and not behind. (in my opinion)

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Lastly, I firmly believe that "absolute proof" is beyond us so why would I accept "absolute proof" from a souce (religion) that is often shown not to be absolute proof. can you ever trust a lier who claims he never lies?

eace:

Same here, i require absolute PROOF, wivout proof i will NOT believe!

Interesting point of view, whos lying to you and how? Wheres the lie? I certainly wouldnt believe a liar i assure you

If i hav lied im only human, but divine sources dont lie

eace:
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[root]

Same here, i require absolute PROOF, wivout proof i will NOT believe!

Maybe this is why you follow Islam since it claims to offer you absolute proof unlike science which does not.

Interesting point of view, whos lying to you and how? Wheres the lie? I certainly wouldnt believe a liar i assure you

Looking at it another way, it's not science that claims to have absolute proof! but religion. It's not religion that says "we might not be quite right here but....."

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

No. Why would He? Moreover God, if He existed, is clearly beyond our comprehension, so it is a mistake to talk about logic. It does not apply to God or what He does or does not do. Admittedly, if God were like us in some way and so our logic applied to Him, He might send down revelations, but presumably it would be more logical that He would simply have designed His creation better so it did not need constant reminders of the right and wrong thing to do.

Do you believe in God? Because sometimes you talk as if you do. Or are you not sure?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Maybe this is why you follow Islam since it claims to offer you absolute proof unlike science which does not.

Islam agrees with science or else i wud say science lessons go against my religion and never attend them :rollseyes ​

Looking at it another way, it's not science that claims to have absolute proof! but religion.

Again science agrees with Islam, every scientific fact will agree with islam, i assure u on this .

eace:​

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Do you believe in God? Because sometimes you talk as if you do. Or are you not sure?

I wanna say it again becoz u hav provided the opportunity

I think heigou is very openminded to islam, he seems to question everythin which is in a way good, i wish he just accept the truth one day inshaAllah .


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[------]

Sorry I am not ignoring your posts, but I am a little swamped. As I answered one a lot like it (random - I got to it first) I did not repeat myself.

That is you isn't it under a new name?

Its me Pagal Kuri HeiGou :rollseyes - This (Aalimah) is my username.

 

[root]

Alpha Dude - Hi Root, are you aware that in Islam we have the notion that there are seven heavens?

"Have you not seen how God has created seven skies one above the other?" 71:15

"……if you can penetrate through the zones of the skies and the earth, then penetrate, you will not do so without authority." 55:33

<^ talks about the barriers between the different heavens>

"And we have decorated the lowest heaven (universe) with lanterns (stars)." 41:12

Would you consider these verses interesting when considering the concept of "multiverses"?

I would ask first where is the difference here that you have quoted "Seven Heavens" since on this forum and others it refers to the seven layers of the atmosphere. Are you quoting something entirely different in the Koran or the same one that refers to the seven atmospheric levels?

 

[root]

Hmmm, I have not read any post on this subject on this forum yet so I cannot say whether it is the same quote or not. But what would make me inclined to believe that it is not referring to the atmospheric levels would be the last verse that I posted:

"And we have decorated the lowest heaven (universe) with lanterns (stars)." 41:12

It specifically asserts here that the lowest heaven has been adorned with lanterns - which can assumed to mean the stars.

Harun Hanya (who is very popular on this forum) has already claimed 41:12 as a scientific miracle in reference to the seven heavens being that of atmospheric levels:

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate." (The Qur'an, 41:12)

http://www.creationofuniverse.com/html/science_07.html

Perhaps someone can clarify

 

[root]

Here is another,

One fact about the universe revealed in the verses of the Qur'an is that the sky is made up of seven layers.

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an, 2:29)

"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)

Again this is given as a miracle of the Koran to correctly describe the seven atmospheric levels and further claims evidence of a "creation":

http://www.evidencesofcreation.com/miracles_01_08.htm

 

[snakelegs]

Does that make atheism another faith ... another religion?

absolutely. belief in non-god-ness is still a belief. so yes, i regard atheism as a religion. in fact, i have even had atheists try to convert me!

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

absolutely. belief in non-god-ness is still a belief. so yes, i regard atheism as a religion. in fact, i have even had atheists try to convert me!

I wouldn't describe atheism as a religion, myself. I think 'faith-position' is more accurate. Of course, it depends what you mean by religion, a term that is notoriously difficult to define.

Atheism is a belief, certainly. I don't say that I know there is no god, simply that I believe it is much more likely that there isn't than that there is.

But if atheism is a religion, what are its rituals? Where are its places of worship? What is an atheist prayer like? What are atheism's moral teachings and rulings?

Since atheism solely concerns the existence of god claim, none of these questions have definite answers, as they have nothing to do with atheism.

Peace