al-Qaida in Iraq

islamirama · May 15, 2007

MTAFFI said:
okey dokey, whatever you say...lol.. I am brainwashed :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I never said I like Bush, in fact, I cant wait until the elections. I look at all sources of media, it seems froms your posts that you only look to one source, I remain objective and unbiased, while you consider no other belief or opinion other than what suits your needs. I do not rely on polls because they typically come from a small number of people and depending on the source they are typically biased. I could poll 1010 people at the university of charlotte about who is their favorite football team, and I bet over 90% would say the Carolina panthers, would that mean 90% of americans love the panthers? If I polled a black community in a poor neighborhood on whether or not they like Bush, do their views represent the US as a whole? I dont think so, unless everyone is polled a poll holds no weight, but that is only my opinion, which according to you holds no weight anyways... But then again what do your words hold? The same statements and articles from the same conspiracy theory sites or biased poll research. Wow.... I think your post directed at me is more like a direct reflection of yourself and your ignorance as to how the world works. If you would just look at things from two sides and try to see what is really happening, rather than what you wish was happening, I think your arguments could not only be more productive but more reliable and true as well.

here's some new sources for you...

Pentagon survey: US Iraq troops 'condone torture'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

1/3 of US troops in Iraq 'condone torture': poll
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

One in Ten US Occupation Troops Admit Mistreating Civilians
Less than half of the soldiers and marines would report a team member for unethical behavior;
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17647.htm

Insurgents in Iraq are right to try to force US troops out of the country, a former British army commander has said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6618075.stm

Keltoi · May 15, 2007

islamirama said:
here's some new sources for you...

Pentagon survey: US Iraq troops 'condone torture'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

1/3 of US troops in Iraq 'condone torture': poll
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

One in Ten US Occupation Troops Admit Mistreating Civilians
Less than half of the soldiers and marines would report a team member for unethical behavior;
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17647.htm

Insurgents in Iraq are right to try to force US troops out of the country, a former British army commander has said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6618075.stm

This has got to be the first time a "survey" has been taken with soldiers during wartime. Not a good time to look for sensitivity and rational remarks.

That being said, U.S. soldiers are far more sensitive to the needs of civilians than probably any occupying force in history. That is one reason the U.S. military "hates" the enemy in Iraq so much, because they brutally kill civilians right and left. But guess what, this enemy that the U.S. military hates so much is also given medical attention if wounded on the battlefield. I know of one particular case where a platoon of soldiers were engaged in an hour long firefight so they could medivac a wounded insurgent out of the warzone. So while these surveys might point to the frustration and anger some in the U.S. military feel towards their enemies, it doesn't address the reality of what soldiers do on the battlefield.

MTAFFI · May 15, 2007

islamirama said:
here's some new sources for you...

Pentagon survey: US Iraq troops 'condone torture'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

1/3 of US troops in Iraq 'condone torture': poll
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6627055.stm

One in Ten US Occupation Troops Admit Mistreating Civilians
Less than half of the soldiers and marines would report a team member for unethical behavior;
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17647.htm

Insurgents in Iraq are right to try to force US troops out of the country, a former British army commander has said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6618075.stm

I dont deny any of those articles, yes there have been cases of torture, yes civilians have been mistreated, yes war is a disgusting travesty created by human kind and horrible things happen when it takes its course. I do not doubt or hesitate to agree that the US has done some injustices to the Iraqi people, I do not believe that it is right. I also dont doubt that the insurgency is also trying to remove troops but do no doubt for a second that they are doing a much better job at killing innocents and other insurgents than they are at killing our soldiers. I believe that if you could "poll" (since you have such an interest in such useless things) Iraqis, they would rather have US troops than the indiscriminate insurgents who blow up schools, mosques, and markets, full of women and children. The only thing that the US can say for these soldiers is that we are sorry for their mistakes. But it is war, and a war where you dont know if a civilian is in fact the enemy until he shoots at you.

I do not wish to antagonize you or irritate you islamarama I just wish to help you to see that your views are one sided and you can gain no true knowledge of anything unless you take in from an unbiased point of view. For each article you have posted above I could post one that shows different. Polls are garbage, dont waste your time. Look at every news agency, look at a biased toward muslim and look at a biased toward the US, then try and find one in the middle. Take all the information put it together swirl it around in your coffee and somewhere in there you will find the truth.

islamirama · May 15, 2007

MTAFFI said:
I believe that if you could "poll" (since you have such an interest in such useless things) Iraqis, they would rather have US troops than the indiscriminate insurgents who blow up schools, mosques, and markets, full of women and children.

"One young Iraqi man told us that he was trained by the Americans as a policeman in Baghdad and he spent 70 per cent of his time learning to drive and 30 per cent in weapons training. They said to him: 'Come back in a week.' When he went back, they gave him a mobile phone and told him to drive into a crowded area near a mosque and phone them. He waited in the car but couldn't get the right mobile signal. So he got out of the car to where he received a better signal. Then his car blew up.

"There was another man, trained by the Americans for the police. He too was given a mobile and told to drive to an area where there was a crowd - maybe a protest - and to call them and tell them what was happening. Again, his new mobile was not working. So he went to a landline phone and called the Americans and told them: 'Here I am, in the place you sent me and I can tell you what's happening here.' And at that moment there was a big explosion in his car."

Source

Khadduri's report went like this: "A few days ago, an American manned check point confiscated the driver license of a driver and told him to report to an American military camp near Baghdad airport for interrogation and in order to retrieve his license… we have forwarded your papers and license to al-Kadhimia police station for processing. …The driver did leave in a hurry, but was soon alarmed with a feeling that his car was driving as if carrying a heavy load, and he also became suspicious of a low flying helicopter that kept hovering overhead, as if trailing him. He stopped the car and inspected it carefully. He found nearly 100 kilograms of explosives hidden in the back seat and along the two back doors.

(2) On May 13, 2005, a 64 years old Iraqi farmer, Haj Haidar Abu Sijjad, took his tomato load in his pickup truck from Hilla to Baghdad, accompanied by Ali, his 11 years old grandson. They were stopped at an American check point and were asked to dismount. ….A minute later, his grandson told him that he saw one of the American soldiers putting a grey melon size object in the back among the tomato containers. "They intended it to explode in Baghdad …'.

Source

I do not wish to antagonize you or irritate you islamarama I just wish to help you to see that your views are one sided and you can gain no true knowledge of anything unless you take in from an unbiased point of view. For each article you have posted above I could post one that shows different. Polls are garbage, dont waste your time. Look at every news agency, look at a biased toward muslim and look at a biased toward the US, then try and find one in the middle. Take all the information put it together swirl it around in your coffee and somewhere in there you will find the truth.

right back at ya!

Sami Zaatari · May 15, 2007

:threadclo

MTAFFI · May 15, 2007

islamirama said:
"One young Iraqi man told us that he was trained by the Americans as a policeman in Baghdad and he spent 70 per cent of his time learning to drive and 30 per cent in weapons training. They said to him: 'Come back in a week.' When he went back, they gave him a mobile phone and told him to drive into a crowded area near a mosque and phone them. He waited in the car but couldn't get the right mobile signal. So he got out of the car to where he received a better signal. Then his car blew up.

"There was another man, trained by the Americans for the police. He too was given a mobile and told to drive to an area where there was a crowd - maybe a protest - and to call them and tell them what was happening. Again, his new mobile was not working. So he went to a landline phone and called the Americans and told them: 'Here I am, in the place you sent me and I can tell you what's happening here.' And at that moment there was a big explosion in his car."

Source

Robert Fisk has an obviously biased view on the war in Iraq, I am not saying he isnt a good reporter but I am saying that he is very very biased. Again I have to say that I just simply do not believe that this could be true, I believe someone could have said this to him, but I dont think it is true. I think it is extremely fabricated, but time will tell, eventually the US will pull out of Iraq and if these sorts of things continue then we will see, but until then I cannot believe this.

islamirama said:
[
Khadduri's report went like this: "A few days ago, an American manned check point confiscated the driver license of a driver and told him to report to an American military camp near Baghdad airport for interrogation and in order to retrieve his license… we have forwarded your papers and license to al-Kadhimia police station for processing. …The driver did leave in a hurry, but was soon alarmed with a feeling that his car was driving as if carrying a heavy load, and he also became suspicious of a low flying helicopter that kept hovering overhead, as if trailing him. He stopped the car and inspected it carefully. He found nearly 100 kilograms of explosives hidden in the back seat and along the two back doors.

(2) On May 13, 2005, a 64 years old Iraqi farmer, Haj Haidar Abu Sijjad, took his tomato load in his pickup truck from Hilla to Baghdad, accompanied by Ali, his 11 years old grandson. They were stopped at an American check point and were asked to dismount. ….A minute later, his grandson told him that he saw one of the American soldiers putting a grey melon size object in the back among the tomato containers. "They intended it to explode in Baghdad …'.

Source

Again, I have to use the word propaganda and lies.... I am not even so sure of the credibility of this source

islamirama said:
[
right back at ya!

I havent seen a single source of your come from anywhere that is not anti US

MTAFFI · May 15, 2007

Sami Zaatari said:
:threadclo

I bet you wish it were closed, it doesnt serve your best interest

Zman · May 15, 2007

MTAFFI said:
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME?!?! You really think that the US used children as a human shield because a suicide bomber drove his truck into the kids and soldiers and killed some of them?? This is proposterous, you act as though the sick individual who did this didnt see the kids, or that he couldnt have simply turned around and come back another time. Some people are really disgusting. Keep living in your little world, keep thinking that Al_Qaeda has your best interest in mind, keep thinking that this nonsense propoganda that your perpetuate as fact is true.

It's mighty convenient that you chose to omit what that soldier allegedly said.

It only dims your intelligence and makes you even more vulnerable when the troops do finally pull out. What a totally ridiculous joke of a post that really is, you should be ashamed of your self for being that gullible and ignorant.

Choosing to insult and defame, only shows the true depth of your character.

Doesnt the Quran say something about those who wish to make you believe things that are simply not true?

Citing the Quran, are we?

Have you miraculously become a believer? :lol:

BTW, if you choose to cite a verse, post the EXACT verse with with ayah/surah, numbers, and don't try to ad-lib it

Zman · May 15, 2007

MTAFFI said:
Again, I have to use the word propaganda and lies.... I am not even so sure of the credibility of this source

I havent seen a single source of your come from anywhere that is not anti US

Convenient excuses and methods of refutation.

Muslims can also use your tactics and always cite: "lies," "propaganda," "anti-Islamic," "biased," "lacking credibility," and it would be that your argument was Just shot out of the water, checkmate, debate over, we win, right?

Zman · May 15, 2007

Aaron85 said:
As i know muslim extremists began to attack USA long before George W.Bush became a president.
Those attacks like- first attack on WTC, attack on american embassy in Lebanon, hostages taken in Iran in american embassy, it all hapenned long before Bush was elected.

BTW, the US has been attacking Islamic nations, long before your so-called "Muslim extremists," came into existence.

U.S. action created your so-called "Muslim extremists.

Why did you leave out the many invasions, assassinations, coups of Third World nations, that aren't even Islamic.

The U.S. doesn't have a problem with Muslims only, it has a huge problem with the entire Third World.

And now, "Old Europe," has an issue with the U.S.

BTW, the attack of the U.S. embassy in Lebanon was a legitimate target. Because it housed the Marines.

The U.S. became an actor in Lebanon's war, once it sent in its military, and took sides with the Phalange against the Muslims.

What precipitated that attack, was the shelling of Muslim neighborhoods in Beirut by a U.S. Battleship...

Zman · May 15, 2007

MTAFFI said:
What about all of the insurgent groups, they too then should face war crimes...

Face war crimes for what? Resisting the US occupation?

The thing is the US is not at war in iraq right now,

Really? So, 130,000 US troops, the Air Force, Navy, the daily bombardments, the battles, those aren't signs of the US being in a war? Ok, Napoleon :lol:

our objectives in iraq are complete,

Of course they are. Our beloved king george did give his seal of approval when he declared: "Mission Accomplished."

we are just trying to provide security now, which cant be done because of the mongrels and heathens that insist on the deaths of more muslims to get people like you to believe it is all the US's fault.

What about the 650,000 Iraqi's who were killed by the U.S. mongrels and heathens?

Or the 500,000 Iraqi children who were murdered during the US's genocidal economic sanctions, which Madeleine Albright stated on 60 Minutes as being "Worth It?"

Face it, the Muslim world (in the middle east) today is in shambles and probably wont recover.

Thanks to the idiots in the White House.

It isnt the US's fault you cant be civilized and get along because of ridiculous religious differences.

Like the U.S. occupations Civilized Behavior at Abu Ghraib, Fallujah, Haditha, the village of Isghaqi, using White Phosphorous and Napalm bombs & cluster bombs against civilians in populated areas, allowing sectarianism to bloom, under our watch? Yes, I agree.

But hey, I think we will be leaving relatively soon anyways, so we will see who is blowing up mosques and setting off car bombs and killing officials, police, women, children and other innocent civilians.

It'll still be the CIA!

You should be ashamed

Actually, a defender of an occupation, of mass murderers and war criminals, like you, is the one who should be truly ashamed.

But, unfortunately, as you have consistently displayed, you have no shame to begin with...

Zman · May 15, 2007

E'jaazi said:
It's because of the US the AQ is in Iraq! The US started all of this. As bad as Saddam might have been, things in Iraq were not this bad.

That why in a recent poll, Iraqi's yearned for Saddam's days. In comparison with the gates of hell that the occupation forces opened, Saddam's days were delightful.

But, don't expect some of these guys to agree, they're never wrong.

Even the neocons have admitted their mistake. Even Congress and the Senate are against Bush and his Crusade...

Zman · May 15, 2007

Joe98 said:
But who is making it bad?

The US soldiers have the task of protecting the workers who are trying to build infrastructure.

What building?

Haven't you read the papers?

All the billions that went missing. It was under the CPA's control.

Even U.S. officials and Generals have said a while back, that the rebilding will not be completed, due to their miscalculation.

They went in their with a ready military plan to overthro and to occupay. They had no "Nation-Building" plan in place. That's why no rebuilding was done.

They admitted that!

They're using the bombings as a distraction from their failure and as an excuse to remain in Iraq. To continue "the rebuilding efforts," to "separate the Sunni's & Shia," "If we left, there would be a bloodbath."

They said the same b/s about Vietnam, and it didn't happen.

Zman · May 15, 2007

MTAFFI said:
That is the most accurate 4 sentence response I have seen on this forum

That's a lie!

It's propaganda!

It's biased and anti-Iraqi/Islamic!

You lack credibility!

Zman · May 15, 2007

MTAFFI said:
If I ever need a good source of Al-Qaeda propoganda I will be sure to come to you.

A much better source would be the CIA :thumbs_up

Zman · May 15, 2007

MTAFFI said:
I am brainwashed

This is the first thing out of your mouth that I agree with. Keep up the good work...

Zman · May 15, 2007

MTAFFI said:
...I think your post...is more like a direct reflection of yourself and your ignorance as to how the world works.

If you would just look at things from two sides and try to see what is really happening, rather than what you wish was happening, I think your arguments could not only be more productive but more reliable and true as well.

Your statement fits you hand-in-glove.

I sincerely hope that you apply the advice you give to others, to YOURSELF...

Zman · May 15, 2007

Keltoi said:
That being said, U.S. soldiers are far more sensitive to the needs of civilians than probably any occupying force in history.

Are you really sure about that. Is there proof?

What about the Abu Ghraib abuses (Just one example).

That is one reason the U.S. military "hates" the enemy in Iraq so much, because they brutally kill civilians right and left.

What about the massive amounts of Iraqi civilians the US has killed?

These are serious questions. I'm not out to bust your chops...

Keltoi · May 15, 2007

Zman said:
Are you really sure about that. Is there proof?

What about the Abu Ghraib abuses (Just one example).

What about the massive amounts of Iraqi civilians the US has killed?

These are serious questions. I'm not out to bust your chops...

As for Abu Ghraib, it was a vile abuse, regardless of what the Iraqi men were guilty of. However, the soldiers in Abu Ghraib prison are hardly representative of U.S. military conduct as a whole.

As for civilians, the U.S. is either directly or indirectly responible for many civilian deaths. Either through miscommunicated bombing, collateral damage during battles, and the cases of soldier misconduct. I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of U.S. soldiers have no desire to see civilians killed.

This is in direct contrast to the enemy there, who routinely tortures and beheads civilians, dumping their bodies all over Baghdad and the rest of the country. People have to go out in the morning and look in the rivers to find other headless corpses floating in it. This is the kind of savagery that takes most people, who aren't even over there, for a loop. Imagine the soldiers and others over there who see what the insurgency is doing to the people of Iraq. Yes, the U.S. shares a large part of the blame for the state of affairs over there, but the large majority of civilian deaths in the past 3 years have not been caused by U.S. action.

islamirama · May 15, 2007

Keltoi said:
As for Abu Ghraib, it was a vile abuse, regardless of what the Iraqi men were guilty of. However, the soldiers in Abu Ghraib prison are hardly representative of U.S. military conduct as a whole.

As for civilians, the U.S. is either directly or indirectly responible for many civilian deaths. Either through miscommunicated bombing, collateral damage during battles, and the cases of soldier misconduct. I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of U.S. soldiers have no desire to see civilians killed.

This is in direct contrast to the enemy there, who routinely tortures and beheads civilians, dumping their bodies all over Baghdad and the rest of the country. People have to go out in the morning and look in the rivers to find other headless corpses floating in it. This is the kind of savagery that takes most people, who aren't even over there, for a loop. Imagine the soldiers and others over there who see what the insurgency is doing to the people of Iraq. Yes, the U.S. shares a large part of the blame for the state of affairs over there, but the large majority of civilian deaths in the past 3 years have not been caused by U.S. action.

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