Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

[Fr0mHim]

please guide me in your teachings of what you believe man.

 

[Woodrow]

please guide me in your teachings of what you believe man.

Rather then hijacking this thread and getting it off topic. Let me direct you over to this section:


Click on the link: http://www.islamicboard.com/discover-islam/

 

[Keltoi]

wanted to add this:


to me its truth not because of what someone said about it in a 2000 year old book though I can give restate scripture that gives prophesy of someone dieing to save someone else but its not a quote but its a prophesy through action through more of an event. its truth to me because everything in this world testifies of him well I wont use the word everything... but some events testify of him... or could... like a person being able to SAVE someone else by dieing(metiphorically or actually) or someone willing to give up(agian either dieing for real or dieing mentally) their time to spend with someone who needs it. and to me thats what God did... now granted honestly sometimes myself thinks of worldly things and the thought of God coming down to save me isn't satifying to me. but hey thats just me...

Yes, most of this thread is bogged down with whether Christ died on a Friday, Thursday, or Wednesday. To those who take heart in Christ's forgiveness of sins the doctrinal arguments are just that, arguments. I'm glad that Christ's Word has given you comfort through dark times. Welcome to the forum.

 

[Redeemed]

wanted to add this:


to me its truth not because of what someone said about it in a 2000 year old book though I can give restate scripture that gives prophesy of someone dieing to save someone else but its not a quote but its a prophesy through action through more of an event. its truth to me because everything in this world testifies of him well I wont use the word everything... but some events testify of him... or could... like a person being able to SAVE someone else by dieing(metiphorically or actually) or someone willing to give up(agian either dieing for real or dieing mentally) their time to spend with someone who needs it. and to me thats what God did... now granted honestly sometimes myself thinks of worldly things and the thought of God coming down to save me isn't satifying to me. but hey thats just me...

Welcome here on this discussion panel. It sounds like you are a Christian. I am too, and I can tell you that it is a good idea to sit back and really listen or read as you pray about the dialiogue so you don't make the mistakes I did of just jumping in like an elephant in a jewerly shop. Not that you did anything wrong now, but I can tell you there are quite a few Christians on this forum that know more than I do. You will get the hang or it really soon.
Alapiana

 

[back_to_faith]

The "Jewish Encyclopedia," Vol.4, pg.474, confirms this method of reckoning time. It reads, "A short time in the morning of the seventh day counted as the seventh day

Think of it this way. If we took the '3 days and 3 nights' literally, we could only assume it was a literal 72 hours. To say it was longer - even one second longer - would mean that you would have to say something like 'longer than 3 days and 3 nights' and if was shorter, then you would have to say something like 'less than 3 days and 3 nights.' I realize this argument seems to be pulling hairs, even being picky, but either you read it literally, or you read it figuratively. .

1- One could search till the day of Judgment and never finds that there is such idiom in the Hebrew language :

(part of a day (as opposed to night) ,reckoned as a day _and_ a night)

only It is possibile that A part of a day was reckoned as a day and a part of a night was reckoned as a night .


2-There is no evidence that "three days and three nights" is an idiom. Just saying it doesn't make it so. There is no reason to believe that "three days and three nights" means anything other than "three days and three nights". An idiom is an expression whose meaning _cannot_ be derived from its constituent elements. The above expression shows no evidence of an idiomatic expression.


3- you wrote (If we took the '3 days and 3 nights' literally, we could only assume it was a literal 72 hours)..
Did you read anything in my post to you,that I thought , Jesus had to stay 72 hours in the tomb in order to fulfill what he said?!!!

again read what I wrote:

when the phrase "three days and three nights" is stated, it includes either all three days and all three nights or can be deficient in only parts of a day or night at the beginning or end of the entire period, but never of a full segment of day or night out of twenty-four hours (1 Samuel 30:11-13). Although Jesus did not have to be buried exactly seventy-two hours, he did have to be buried at least on parts of three days and three nights. Jesus died on a Friday at the ninth hour, which corresponds to about 3 P.M. The claim is made that Jesus rose three days later, on a Sunday. This would mean that he was buried during the daylight hours of three different days. If this was true, he was buried for only two nights.



What shoots the whole argument in the foot is the narrative of John :

"On the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb" (John 20:1).

Thus, John says that Jesus, having risen before the dawn of Sunday morning, was buried for only two days and two nights, i.e., one full day (Saturday), part of another (Friday), and two nights (Friday and Saturday nights).

 

[YusufNoor]

Greetings of Peace, YusufNoor. I agree the pieces I posted on the three days question do not address all the issues you have noted.

As to the question of Christians worshiping on Sunday as opposed to Saturday, it is true there is not 100% universal agreement on the subject even among Christians. A small percentage of Christians still meet on Saturday.

Here is an article from carm.org which pretty well explains why most Christians worship on Sunday.

In the Old Testament, God stated, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you" (Exodus 20:8-10, NASB). It was the custom of the Jews to come together on the Sabbath, which is Saturday, cease work, and worship God. Jesus went to the synagogue on Saturday to teach (Matt. 12:9; John 18:20) as did the
apostle Paul (Acts 17:2; 18:4). So, if in the Old Testament we are commanded to keep the Sabbath and in the New Testament we see Jews, Jesus, and the apostles doing the same thing, then why do we worship on Sunday?
First of all, of the 10 commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17, only 9 of them were restated in the New Testament. (Six in Matt. 19:18, murder, adultery,stealing, false witness, honor parents, and worshiping God; Rom. 13:9, coveting. Worshiping God properly covers the first three commandments) The one that was not reaffirmed was the one about the Sabbath. Instead, Jesus said that He is the Lord of the Sabbath (Matt. 12:8).
In creation, God rested on the seventh day. But, since God is all powerful, He doesn’t get tired. He doesn’t need to take a break and rest. So, why did does it say that He rested? The reason is simple: Mark 2:27 says, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." In other words, God established the Sabbath as a rest for His people, not because He needed a break, but because we are mortal and need a time of rest, of focus on God. In this, our spirits and
bodies are both renewed.
The OT system of Law required keeping the Sabbath as part of the overall moral, legal, and sacrificial system by which the Jewish people satisfied God’s requirements for behavior, government, and forgiveness of sins. The Sabbath was part of the Law in that sense. In order to "remain" in favor with God, you had to also keep the Sabbath. If it was not kept, then the person was in sin and would often be punished (Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 6:23; Deut. 13:1-9; Num.
35:31; Lev. 20:2, etc.).
But with Jesus’ atonement, we no longer are required to keep the Law as a means for our justification. The requirements of the Law were fulfilled in Christ. We now have rest from the Law. We now have “Sabbath", continually.

Are we free to worship on Sunday?

Within the New Testament is ample evidence that the seventh day Sabbath is no longer a requirement.

* Rom. 14:5-6: "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."

The entire section of Rom. 14:1-12 is worth careful study. The
instructions here are that individuals must be convinced in their own minds about which day they observe for the Lord. If the seventh day Sabbath were arequirement, then the choice would not be mans’, but God’s. To me, this verse is sufficient to answer the question beyond doubt. Furthermore,

* Col. 2:16-17: "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Notice the time sequence mentioned in Col. 2:16-17 above. A festival is yearly. A new moon is monthly. A Sabbath is weekly. No one is to judge in regard to this. The Sabbath is defined as a shadow, the reality is Jesus. Jesus is our Sabbath. So, if someone is judging you because you worship on the Sabbath, they are wrong. Likewise, if you regard Sunday above Saturday (Rom. 14:5-6), all you need to do is be convinced in your own mind that that is alright.

Is there any evidence in the NT that Christians met on Sunday?

* Acts 20:7: "And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight."

The first day of the week is Sunday and this is the day the people
gathered. This passage can easily be seen as the church meeting on Sunday, though it does not necessitate it. It has two important church functions within it: breaking bread (communion) and a message (preaching/teaching). Additionally, Luke included the Roman system as well as the Jewish system of counting days. The Jewish system was sundown to sundown. But Luke also used the Roman system: midnight to midnight (Luke 11:5; Acts 16:25; 20:7; 27:27). This is a subtle
point that shows the Jewish Sabbath system was not exclusively used by Luke. If the Sabbath was mandatory, why the use of the non-Jewish system?

* 1 Cor. 16:1-2: "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that nocollections be made when I come."

Notice here that Paul is directing the churches to meet on the first day of each week and put money aside. It would seem that this is tithing. So, the instructed time for the church to meet is Sunday, the first day of the week and it is that day the Galatians were to set money aside collections. Is this an official worship day set up by the church? You decide. Does this verse apply to Christians today? It most certainly does.

* Revelation 1:10-11, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

The New Bible Dictionary says regarding the term, ‘The Lord’s Day’ in Rev. 1:10: "This is the first extant occurrence in Christian literature of "tekuriake hemera." The adjectival construction suggests that it was a formal designation of the church’s worship day. As such it certainly appears early in the 2nd century" (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, 1. 67).
In many churches today, the term "The Lord’s Day" is used to designate
Sunday, the same as it was in the second century.
I hope this is evidence enough to show you that the Bible does not require that we worship on Saturday. If anything, we have the freedom (Rom. 14:1-12) to worship on the day that we believe we should. And, no one should judge us in regard to the day we keep. We are free in Christ and not under law, (Rom. 6:14).

Conclusion

The Seventh Day Adventists have every right to worship on the Sabbath and they should if they are convinced that is the right thing to do. However, if
any member of any church were to require a person to worship on the Sabbath as a sign of "true" Christianity or "true" redemption, then that is wrong. According to Rom. 14:1-12, we are free.
Additionally, Sunday is the day that the Lord Jesus rose from the dead. The Jewish people who had rejected Jesus continued to worship on Saturday, the Sabbath. But it was the Christians who celebrated Jesus' resurrection and this was most probably the driving force to gather on the first day of the week.

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu


Greetings of Peace Don,

Thank you for taking the time to post all of the information that you did over the last few days! I realize that it takes a lot of time and concern to do. May Allah(SWT) reward you for your diligent effort.

Not to refute what you wrote, but I try to point out that in my Pre-Islamic days. I clung pretty close to a lot of the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong, hence the little tag of heretic on my title. It was to make it easier for “Christians” to understand my mindset and realize that I have some firm understandings of what I felt “must be” the message of the New Testament. You can check his (HWA) book What Day is the Christian Sabbath? Online if you choose. Not that I was ever a member, but I did feel that HWA did make sense of a lot of the New Testament.

Therein lines the problem though. We see here on this sight, a lot of discussion, arguing and bickering about “is the bible changed?” but we are, imho, missing the point! “Christians” will argue, “God can protect His Word!” and Muslims argue something else. Moses came down from Sinai with clear laws and rules and a message that was understandable. YET, with Jesus/Isa(as), no one is quite sure what the words were, what the message was and more importantly, “how do we follow Jesus/Isa(as)?” WHY NOT? What is part of Allah(SWT)’s plan to make religion a “shell game” with everyone trying to figure out the truth for himself? Does one take the side of the church that is easiest to follow or make the sense?

If the “Church” was guide by a separate entity of “God” called the Holy Spirit, the correct way of life and the true message should have been easy to ascertain! But it’s not! Did the Jesus of the bible command his followers to “take communion” OR celebrate Passover! Did the early church observe the Jewish Holy Days, as well as the Sabbath? ALL evidence from the NT is that they did! Of course, that more HWA! There are mistranslations in regard to Easter, the Sabbath and the “breaking of bread”! Search out a Ferrar Fenton translation to see for sure!

But that ultimately led me to the question, “couldn’t “one third of God(the Holy Spirit”) preserve the message of one-third of God(Jesus)” in regards to the correct way to follow the other third of God(Father)”? Well as there is no concretely established procedure, then the answer is no. YET if the question WAS accurate, it would be impossible for it not to be so! Therefore, the question must be in error!

We don’t have that problem in Islam. Yes, there are some that choose not to follow the straight path, BUT finding the straight path IS POSSIBLE! True Islam follows the Qur’an and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah(pbuh)! And as the Jews follow the “way” of Ezra as opposed to the way of Moses(as), that leaves Islam as the ONLY religion of the God of Abraham that one can be sure that we still have the “proper instructions” for!

Sorry to go off-topic, but it indirectly refutes the original question.

 

[Rufaidah]

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Allah says in his book (the holy quran)

157. And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa (jesus)
son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor
did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa - jesus) and most
surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they
have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and
they killed him not for sure.

158. Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

159. And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most
certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of
resurrection he (Isa -jesus) shall be a witness against them.​

 

[Redeemed]

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Allah says in his book (the holy quran)

157. And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa (jesus)
son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor
did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa - jesus) and most
surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they
have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and
they killed him not for sure.

158. Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

159. And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most
certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of
resurrection he (Isa -jesus) shall be a witness against them.​

I don’t see why there needs to be an issue about Jesus rising on the third day. Jesus’ death was witnessed in Acts and so was His resurrection on the third day. Why would sincere people want to lie about what they saw? Anyway there are so many things that cannot be proved and all we have is faith.
Things that take faith are who Jesus is in relationship to God. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus say He is a part of the trinity or that He is the Father or the Holy Spirit. He does say, however, He is the Son of God. He himself alludes to being a part of God that is apart from any other great man of God from the past, present or future. Even the Bible is full of Scripture that show that Jesus is a part of God’s essence such as in the beginning was the word and the word was God and became flesh, and Jesus telling Phillip if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Even the names that were ascribed to Him such as Immanuel, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, Lilly of the Valley, Rose of Sharon, Lamb of God, Lion of the tribe of Judah and mighty God. When according to Scripture Jesus rose from the dead, He said He would judge the living and the dead. It is written that God won’t judge, but He has given the judgment to Christ. Jesus said all authority has been give to me. All trumps all other prophets who came before Him or after in my opinion. If Jesus is whom he said, we should believe Him. Even the Muslims recognize him as a great prophet of God and prophets don’t lie. If they do, they are false prophets that should be stoned according to Scripture. There is no way any one can prove that Jesus is in the very nature God according to the Bible. It takes faith to believe that God is a Spirit that can manifest Himself in whatever form He chooses. If you say that because of this, there is more than one God consider yourself rebuked where you stand.
I was called by God to submit to him and to trust and obey Him not to questions the elements of His essence. It is written: “Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God is One.” We are not ignorant concerning Isaac and Ishmael and the promises given to both of them. Jesus came from the seed of Isaac as the seed of promised and Muhammad came from the seed of Ishmael. Now both Isaac and Ishmael worshipped the same God who is one. There is no question about it. There is only one God. He is our Creator. There is no other. Now it is written that all things were made by Jesus and for Him. Even the angels were created by Him and for Him according to the Bible.
Now Jesus is the one who said, “I am the door, I am the true shepherd, all others are hirelings, I am the Way, Truth and the Life, No one comes unto the Father (Allah) but by me. These are not lies that Jesus spoke. These are words that the world is accountable for hearing. Many have come after Jesus trying to discredit Him. Some were even supernaturally inspired by Satan to do so. Satan is a liar and the Father of all lies. He comes to steal, kill and destroy. He can transform himself into an angle of light. Why should it amaze anyone that there are those who appear as ministers of truth but are sheep in wolves clothing? Was it God that said He is not a begetter nor is He begotten? Why would God contradict Himself? God said, to Peter on the mount of transfiguration, “This is my Son in whom I am well please; hear ye Him.” Jesus said it is written, ye are gods; and you want to stone me because I said am the Son of God. He said, you can’t hear me because you are of your father the devil. My sheep hear my voice and follow me. Jesus said, if you love me, follow me. Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. The whole Bible is written so that we might have life and life more abundantly. All the disciples including Paul were just trying there best to follow Christ, because according to Jesus, there is no other way to God. If Jesus is a prophet sent from God, how wrong can we go if we listen to Him instead of someone who came after Him telling us He is not who he said He is. Joseph Smith had a revelation of God (so he said) appearing before him saying that all religions were wrong. And he came up with some golden plates that teach that Jesus is Satan’s spiritual brother, and as man is God once was and as God is you may become. That is not to far from what Islam teaches don’t they say that Jesus is the angel Gabriel. This doesn’t make sense to me. How can Jesus be the spiritual brother of His own creation? When it says in the Bible that Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, in the originally text, it reads that He is the beginner of the beginning of creation. Behold your Creator according to the Bible. Jesus himself said he would die and rise on the third day. If Jesus didn't die on the cross for the remission of our sin and rise in power, the whole of Christendom is a farce and a phony religion. Who then is the true prophet Jesus or Muhammad?
In my opinion, any religion that recognizes Jesus as a prophet makes a big problem saying that what He said would happen to him didn’t happen. The only way out of this mess is to say that the Bible is full of mistakes, lies and false testimonies or to try cheap semantic tricks by twisting the true meaning of what is written. If the Mormons got special warm feelings in the belly area when they pray to their Jesus that to them confirms they have the right religion. The JW’s believe that Jesus is the Son of God but they don’t believe that He is in the very nature God. According to the Bible Jesus is the Spiritual Sum of all things and all things are held together by the Word of His power.

 

[NoName55]

edit.

I made a mistake and did not read properly due to huge red type and reported the post in error

 

[Woodrow]

Peace,

i am only going to address part of this as i need to go lie dow for a while. But this caught my eye and I know I would never get any sleep with it on my mind.

what Islam teaches don’t they say that Jesus is the angel Gabriel. This doesn’t make sense to me. How can Jesus be the spiritual brother of His own creation? When it says in the Bible that Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, in the originally text, it reads that He is the beginner of the beginning of creation. Behold your Creator according to the Bible. Jesus himself said he would die and rise on the third day. If Jesus didn't die on the cross for the remission of our sin and rise in power, the whole of Christendom is a farce and a phony religion. Who then is the true prophet Jesus or Muhammad?
In my opinion, any religion that recognizes Jesus as a prophet makes a big problem saying that what He said would happen to him didn’t happen. The only way out of this mess is to say that the Bible is full of mistakes, lies and false testimonies or to try cheap semantic tricks by twisting the true meaning of what is written. If the Mormons got special warm feelings in the belly area when they pray to their Jesus that to them confirms they have the right religion. The JW’s believe that Jesus is the Son of God but they don’t believe that He is in the very nature God. According to the Bible Jesus is the Spiritual Sum of all things and all things are held together by the Word of His power.

what Islam teaches don’t they say that Jesus is the angel Gabriel.

no, but the early Christians that came to Saudi Arabia taught that the Trinity was Jesus(as) Mary and Gabriel.


That is what causes confusion to some people first learning the belifs of Islam. they twist it and say Muslims believe Jesus(as) is Gabriel

The only way out of this mess is to say that the Bible is full of mistakes, lies and false testimonies.................

That is exactly what we believe.

But to be honest I am fully satisfied that the Qur'an is the word, I have no personal need to prove the Bible is false. The Qur'an is the Truth, the light and the way. Allah(swt) is the door to Allah(swt) and he sent us clear instructions on how to follow the path he has paved for us. The Glorious Qur'an is the true word of Allah(swt) and the true instructions on how to reach Jannah.

I escaped from the sin of shirk and count my blessings that I was led to the truth and am no longer a victim of mistaken beliefs.

 

[Keltoi]

The truth, no pun intended, is that the Qu'ran doesn't represent the truth to me, and the Bible doesn't represent the truth to Muslims. We aren't going to change anyone's mind here. If the two faiths are ever going to be able to coexist, we will have to concentrate on what makes us similar and not different.

 

[Ibn-Muktadir]

Do you think that God would shame his messenger by letting the Jews kill him? No rather he was saved and taken up so that he could complete his life afterwards. Think about it! Many phrophets have come and gone, they have all faced challenges and pain in the world, but do you think that God would allow Jesus to be shamed and murdered like this! Anyway i find christianity to be fillled with confusion and pagan ritiuals....any denials?

 

[Woodrow]

The truth, no pun intended, is that the Qu'ran doesn't represent the truth to me, and the Bible doesn't represent the truth to Muslims. We aren't going to change anyone's mind here. If the two faiths are ever going to be able to coexist, we will have to concentrate on what makes us similar and not different.

Very true. It is impossible for a Muslim to accept Christian beliefs and it is Impossible for a Christian to accept Muslim beliefs. The sooner we all accept that and decide that for the benefit of both we need to learn to co-exist.

Muslims, Christians and Jews lived in Peace in the Past, and so can we today. provided we all give up the idea of destroying what we don't agree with.

 

[Ibn-Muktadir]

My advice to christians is listen to these two guys Ahmed Deedat and Zakir Naik. If you still think Christianity is perfect then god help you!

 

[Keltoi]

Do you think that God would shame his messenger by letting the Jews kill him? No rather he was saved and taken up so that he could complete his life afterwards. Think about it! Many phrophets have come and gone, they have all faced challenges and pain in the world, but do you think that God would allow Jesus to be shamed and murdered like this! Anyway i find christianity to be fillled with confusion and pagan ritiuals....any denials?

Any denials? You have your beliefs. I have mine. Your beliefs about my religion mean absolutely nothing to me. I have enough faith to withstand a legion of accusations and insults. My advice, worry about your own faith.

 

[Ibn-Muktadir]

Any denials? You have your beliefs. I have mine. Your beliefs about my religion mean absolutely nothing to me. I have enough faith to withstand a legion of accusations and insults. My advice, worry about your own faith.

Answer me one question why does Christianity have pagan elements to eat? please someone tell.

 

[NoName55]

I know rather I should say that I believe some people mean well but Allah did let people kill some of his Messengers (Not Eesa ibn Mariam/Jesus) Ma'asalaama

 

[Keltoi]

Answer me one question why does Christianity have pagan elements to eat? please someone tell.

pagan elements to eat? Not sure I understand your question.

 

[Ibn-Muktadir]

I know rather I should say that I believe some people mean well but Allah did let people kill some of his Messengers (Not Eesa ibn Mariam/Jesus) Ma'asalaama

Ok i take your point. But this is one of the greates messengers and he was not gonna be shamed in this way. Once he come back all confusion about him will disolve.

 

[Ibn-Muktadir]

Sorry i meant In it....not eat lol