How is sharia to be implemented, in Muslim countries?

[talibilm]

@talibilm : Have you seen any other site whereby their intention to demolish the ka'ba can be confirmed..?

this is an old matter so we have to find the older links and the link i quoted it just which I found now. My concern is already posted in the last post of Bro Huzaifa.

 

[M.I.A.]

Yes. Allaah Ta`aalaa will grant certain abilities to Dajjaal, and this will be part of the Fitnah (test). He will order the sky to rain, and it will rain. He will order the plants to grow, and they will grow. Those who oppose him, he will order the earth to be barren in the areas wherein they live. He will bring a person back to life.

Hearing all of this, a person might ask: "How is it possible he will be able to do all of this? Only Allaah Ta`aalaa can do this."

And the answer is very simple: "It's because it is Allaah Ta`aalaa Who will cause it to happen, not Dajjaal. Dajjaal can do nothing. He is powerless. As part of the Fitnah, when Dajjaal will order the sky to rain, Allaah Ta`aalaa will cause it to rain, and thus those in whose hearts is a sickness will fall prey to the temptations of Dajjaal. So it is not that Dajjaal in and of himself has the power to do these things; it is in fact Allaah Ta`aalaa Who causes it to happen."

والله تعالى أعلم

والسلام

its a straight understanding of it.. the truth if you will.

may allah swt give you good character.


...but most things will just be a slap in the face and a whisper in the ear.

for some.. lol.

 

[Serinity]

[MENTION=38436]talibilm[/MENTION]

Look, I don't support ISIS as they are.

At first, I did support them, but then the more I heard about their ways, the more I didn't.

They should attack Israel, and free Palestine.

Tho, I think while some have portrayed Islam in quite a harsh light - if you dig deeper - and go to the roots - it is not harsh at all.

From my understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, the State of a country should have Shariah. But every Dhimmi, as long as they pay their Jizyah, can have their religion,I they are not forced to Islam. They can rule in their own matters by whatever they believe in.


The State's religion should be Islam, and Shariah Law.

Astaghfirullah if I said anything wrong.

And Allah :swt: knows best.

 

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

We have the Noble Quran and hadith and actions of rightly guided Caliphas for us and if you want to give importance to fiqh when the Imams have themselves told not to obey their fiqh if it goes against a authentic hadith which are used to INVENT extreme ideas its upto you and be answerable to Allah . We should also remember this ayah '' They took their Monks and priests as their Rab .............

Nothing as guarded as the Noble Quran and next comes our sahih hadith .

This isn't the first time, brother, that I've seen you say that Fiqh is unimportant. Do you know what Fiqh is? Fiqh is simply the understanding of Qur'aan and Sunnah. Fiqh is not separate from Qur'aan and Sunnah. The word "Fiqh" itself comes from the verb فقه يفقه which means "to understand". When you take an Aayah of the Qur'aan, or a Hadeeth, and you try to derive a ruling from it, you have to understand it first. What is that understanding called? "Fiqh". It is impossible to escape from Fiqh. Anyone who understands what Fiqh actually is knows this. So now, you can either use the "Fiqh" of the A'immah of Islaam, of the four Madhaahib, who lived 1,000+ years ago, and some met the Sahaabah, OR you can choose - like the Fiqh-rejecters do - to use your own "Fiqh". But whose Fiqh should a person have more confidence in? The Fiqh of a person who was born yesterday, or the Fiqh of one of the A'immah of the past who lived in the time of Sahaabah and just after the time of Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم? Who do you think understood Islaam better?

EVERYTHING in the books of Fiqh is simply rulings extracted FROM Qur'aan and Sunnah. That is what Fiqh is about. Fiqh is the "Understanding" of Qur'aan and Sunnah according to the way the Salaf of this Ummah understood it, because yes, that's of utmost importance as well. It's not just about understanding Qur'aan and Sunnah; you must understand it the way Sahaabah-e-Kiraam had understood it. The way the Salaf-us-Saaliheen had understood it. Not the way modernists living in 2017 think they understand it.

You want to reject Fiqh? Reject what the Mufassireen have said, what the Muhadditheen have said, what the Fuqahaa have said? Just take rulings directly from "The Noble Qur'aan", like you said, without looking at Tafseer and without looking at what any of the Fuqahaa have said about it? Perfect. Let's do exactly that:

Don't back out now. Stick to what you've said. Let's derive the rulings DIRECTLY from the Qur'aan WITHOUT looking at Fiqh, or Tafseer, or anything else:

-------------------------

Quran (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]… but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.

Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”

Quran (4:76) – “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”

Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Quran (4:104) – “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…”

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah"

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Nabi that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all that you can of power and of the steeds of war, that you may terrorise the enemy of Allaah and your enemy."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allaah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allaah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

"He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the Kaafiroon may despise it."

-----------------------

Now, since you have said that Fiqh must not be quoted, and we shouldn't then let look at Tafseer either, and also, you said: " We should also remember this ayah '' They took their Monks and priests as their Rab ............." meaning `Ulamaa shouldn't be quoted either, so now, let us derive rulings directly from the Aayaat above.

And in advance, let met say this: You cannot reply to this post of mine by quoting ANY scholar, or book of Fiqh, or Tafseer, or Mufassir, or anything else, since you have made it clear that according to you, we should do away with all of that, since, and again I will quote your words from your post on page #7, post #140: "quote Fiqh when the Noble Quran and hadith and actions of Prophet :saws: and his sahabas are clear about it ." And your post from earlier on this page: "We have the Noble Quran and hadith and actions of rightly guided Caliphas for us and if you want to give importance to fiqh when the Imams have themselves told not to obey their fiqh if it goes against a authentic hadith" And again, your statement: "Nothing as guarded as the Noble Quran and next comes our sahih hadith"

So, brother, you have put yourself into a corner now. You cannot reply by quoting ANY scholar, past or present, because if you do that, you will be contradicting your statement about not "taking their Monks and priests as their Rab". So, do not take any Monk or Priest as your Rab, by quoting him in contradiction of "Clear Verses of the Noble Qur'aan". It is clear, like you said, isn't it? So, no quoting any scholar in your reply, or any book of Fiqh of ANY Madh-hab, or quoting books of Tafseer (because they are written by "Monks and Priests", i.e. scholars).

So, I'm waiting for your reply.

Was-Salaam.

 

[Simple_Person]

Fiqh indeed is to understand, however often we see especially in this day and age, that fiqh (understanding/interpretation) of a scholar in the past has been held in such a regard if you do not agree with it, you somehow are being branded is a "kafir" by the Muslims of today. Which is not true. As there are multiple mathabs and they don't agree on small things with each other, but yet nobody can brand a follower of another mathab as misguided. They don't agree with each other, yet they are all right in their interpretation.

I am of opinion, that one first has to learn what already exist of understanding of previous scholars. They may contain some understanding which in the light of the modern day can be seen differently and thus disagree with them and give their own fiqh off course with a bit of knowledge..not like..the ignorance of us Muslims of today. Upon existing fiqh that is even valid in the light of the modern day, but rather general understanding, one can off course go a little bit in more detail because of more scientific discovery has been made.

Without fiqh..i think we then talk about ISIS type of guys. Among them are many who are VERY VERY knowledgeable about the Qur'an and Sunnah, yet they don't understand it.

Knowing something, doesn't mean you understand it. As support to this claim.


"Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient," Qur'an 2:26

Looking from a logical point of view we see that both the guided and the misguided have obtained the SAME KNOWLEDGE, yet one understands it and the other doesn't. So knowledge is not the same as understanding.

This i think is also a bit of a problem of the current generation of us Muslims. We read the Qur'an but we do not ponder about what Allah(swt) might be trying to tell us. I am also of opinion that ones state of the heart really is crucial to understanding it. When we look at a misguided person, he can't understand it, no matter how many hours or years of his life he spends on it. The diseases of the heart or not even willing to spend time on it to ponder about it. It amazes me time and time again that majority of us Muslims of the current day blindly follow Islam.

There is i believe a hadith ( you guys are way better with knowledge than me and maybe confirm or correct me), that whoever ponders about the meaning of an aya and his conclusion is wrong, he gets 1 reward and the one who gets the right meaning he will get 2 rewards.

Yet, even my own family who have been Muslims their whole life, see pondering about Qur'an as if it is something dangerous. While there is a clear difference between saying..yes i understand it and it is like this and nothing else..or saying i THINK i understand this and correct me if i am wrong (willing to learn). In the mean time read the fiqh of scholars and learn one or two new things with it. While often, no pondering is done only what fuqaha has said is being adopted.

 

[Serinity]

Correct me if I am wrong but, the ayah talking about "not taking the priests, Imaams, Scholaars, etc. As your Rabbs".. The understanding I have of that, is, do not prefer your scholar, etc. over Allah, if Allah says alcohol is haram, and a scholar says it is halal, that scholar should be ignored and exposed.

If say a group of people who are deviants come and say "Zinaa is halal" (may Allah protect us) or "This ayat, says this and this" while the interpretation is incorrect and false. For example, "This ayat says **haraam** is OK" / legalises haram. Audhu billah.

That scholar should be exposed. Prefering the False legislation of People contrary to Islam. That is taking them as Rabbs. Correct?

The moment you prefer a law contray to Islam, or a ruling other than that of Islam's, you have taken them as your Rabb.

Allahu alam.

 

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

Correct me if I am wrong but, the ayah talking about "not taking the priests, Imaams, Scholaars, etc. As your Rabbs".. The understanding I have of that, is, do not prefer your scholar, etc. over Allah, if Allah says alcohol is haram, and a scholar says it is halal, that scholar should be ignored and exposed.

If say a group of people who are deviants come and say "Zinaa is halal" (may Allah protect us) or "This ayat, says this and this" while the interpretation is incorrect and false. For example, "This ayat says **haraam** is OK" / legalises haram. Audhu billah.

That scholar should be exposed. Prefering the False legislation of People contrary to Islam. That is taking them as Rabbs. Correct?

The moment you prefer a law contray to Islam, or a ruling other than that of Islam's, you have taken them as your Rabb.

Allahu alam.

100% correct.

With Fiqh, we do not do that. With Fiqh, we understand what Allaah Ta`aalaa wants from us. The Fuqahaa and Mujtahideen analyse the Aayaat of the Qur'aan as well as the Ahaadeeth, and with the `Ilm Allaah Ta`aalaa has granted them, they derive thousands of Masaa'il (rulings) from those Aayaat and Ahaadeeth. Without Fiqh, a person would not know what the Shar`i ruling is in their daily life. I mean, this is common sense. For example: A woman wants to know if her Wudhoo is valid if she made it while having nail-polish on her fingers.

Now, how will you find the answer to this? You're not going to find an Aayah of the Qur'aan or a Hadeeth speaking about making Wudhoo while wearing nail-polish, because the nail-polish in vogue these days didn't exist during that time. So that is why you have Fiqh, and Ijtihaad, and `Ulamaa, Fuqahaa, Mujtahideen, people who spend their entire lives studying Islaam in-depth, and who have studied the Principles of Islaamic Jurisprudence (Usool-ul-Fiqh), Qawaa`id-ul-Fiqh, Maqaasid ash-Sharee`ah (The Objectives of the Sharee`ah), etc. and thus they are able to determine what the ruling of the Sharee`ah would be concerning this issue.

Another example:

Is smoking Halaal or Haraam?

You will not find any Aayah or Hadeeth speaking about smoking. It didn't exist back then. So now what? Well, this is where Fiqh comes in. Understanding of the Aayaat. The `Ulamaa look at the Aayah of the Qur'aan wherein Allaah Ta`aalaa says:

ولا تقتلوا أنفسكم

"And do not kill yourselves."

From this Aayah, they derive the ruling that smoking is not permissible, because smoking severely damages the health of the smoker and eventually leads to his death.

If a person rejects Fiqh, however, they can say: "Why is smoking Haraam? There is no Aayah or Hadeeth that explicitly states that smoking is Haraam."

You have Principles of Fiqh which is derived from the Qur'aan and Sunnah, and those are utilised when determining what the ruling of Sharee`ah is with regards to contemporary issues.

If a person rejects Fiqh, we can ask that person - right now - 500 different questions and ask him to answer them and provide the Shar`i ruling just from the Aayaat and Ahaadeeth alone.

"Is Forex trading permissible?"

"What is the ruling with regards to cloning?"

"Is DNA testing valid in Sharee`ah? Can it be used to establish parentage of a child?"

"Is organ transplant permissible?"

"Is it permissible to donate blood?"

"With all these electronic devices, is it permissible to touch the screen, upon which ayaat are visible/displayed , without Wudhu?"

"Is it permissible to take insulin injections while fasting? Will it affect the validity of the fasts?"

"What is the ruling of the person who hasn't performed haj but goes for umrah during the months of haj viz in this case Shawaal.. Is it incumbent upon this person to perform haj before returning or will the lack of a haj visa count as him not having the means?"

"Can a girl chat with a boy (privately) using an instant messaging app like WhatsApp?"


For a person who rejects Fiqh, we say to him: "Answer the above questions without using Fiqh. Answer them with a clear Aayah of the Qur'aan or a Hadeeth. Nothing else. Do not quote any books of Fiqh. Do not quote `Ulamaa. Do not use Usool-ul-Fiqh, or Qawaa`id-ul-Fiqh, or Maqaasid-ush-Sharee`ah, etc. Just a clear-cut Aayah of the Qur'aan or a Hadeeth for each question, please."

We are waiting.

 

[talibilm]

This isn't the first time, brother, that I've seen you say that Fiqh is unimportant. Do you know what Fiqh is? Fiqh is simply the understanding of Qur'aan and Sunnah. Fiqh is not separate from Qur'aan and Sunnah. The word "Fiqh" itself comes from the verb فقه يفقه which means "to understand". When you take an Aayah of the Qur'aan, or a Hadeeth, and you try to derive a ruling from it, you have to understand it first. What is that understanding called? "Fiqh". It is impossible to escape from Fiqh. Anyone who understands what Fiqh actually is knows this. So now, you can either use the "Fiqh" of the A'immah of Islaam, of the four Madhaahib, who lived 1,000+ years ago, and some met the Sahaabah, OR you can choose - like the Fiqh-rejecters do - to use your own "Fiqh". But whose Fiqh should a person have more confidence in? The Fiqh of a person who was born yesterday, or the Fiqh of one of the A'immah of the past who lived in the time of Sahaabah and just after the time of Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم? Who do you think understood Islaam better?

EVERYTHING in the books of Fiqh is simply rulings extracted FROM Qur'aan and Sunnah. That is what Fiqh is about. Fiqh is the "Understanding" of Qur'aan and Sunnah according to the way the Salaf of this Ummah understood it, because yes, that's of utmost importance as well. It's not just about understanding Qur'aan and Sunnah; you must understand it the way Sahaabah-e-Kiraam had understood it. The way the Salaf-us-Saaliheen had understood it. Not the way modernists living in 2017 think they understand it.

You want to reject Fiqh? Reject what the Mufassireen have said, what the Muhadditheen have said, what the Fuqahaa have said? Just take rulings directly from "The Noble Qur'aan", like you said, without looking at Tafseer and without looking at what any of the Fuqahaa have said about it? Perfect. Let's do exactly that:

Don't back out now. Stick to what you've said. Let's derive the rulings DIRECTLY from the Qur'aan WITHOUT looking at Fiqh, or Tafseer, or anything else:
-------------------------

Quran (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]… but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (3:151) – “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.

Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”

Quran (4:76) – “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…”

Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

Quran (4:104) – “And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain…”

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion is all for Allah"

Quran (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:67) - "It is not for a Nabi that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land..."

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all that you can of power and of the steeds of war, that you may terrorise the enemy of Allaah and your enemy."

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allaah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allaah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (33:60-62) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

"He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the Kaafiroon may despise it."

-----------------------

Now, since you have said that Fiqh must not be quoted, and we shouldn't then let look at Tafseer either, and also, you said: " We should also remember this ayah '' They took their Monks and priests as their Rab ............." meaning `Ulamaa shouldn't be quoted either, so now, let us derive rulings directly from the Aayaat above.

And in advance, let met say this: You cannot reply to this post of mine by quoting ANY scholar, or book of Fiqh, or Tafseer, or Mufassir, or anything else, since you have made it clear that according to you, we should do away with all of that, since, and again I will quote your words from your post on page #7, post #140: "quote Fiqh when the Noble Quran and hadith and actions of Prophet :saws: and his sahabas are clear about it ." And your post from earlier on this page: "We have the Noble Quran and hadith and actions of rightly guided Caliphas for us and if you want to give importance to fiqh when the Imams have themselves told not to obey their fiqh if it goes against a authentic hadith" And again, your statement: "Nothing as guarded as the Noble Quran and next comes our sahih hadith"

So, brother, you have put yourself into a corner now. You cannot reply by quoting ANY scholar, past or present, because if you do that, you will be contradicting your statement about not "taking their Monks and priests as their Rab". So, do not take any Monk or Priest as your Rab, by quoting him in contradiction of "Clear Verses of the Noble Qur'aan". It is clear, like you said, isn't it? So, no quoting any scholar in your reply, or any book of Fiqh of ANY Madh-hab, or quoting books of Tafseer (because they are written by "Monks and Priests", i.e. scholars).

So, I'm waiting for your reply.

Was-Salaam.

Its useless to debate or argue in some matters like these and what akhi game should i play with a twister when You claimed about Najashi is enough proof against you. and now you quote noble Quran verses without taking the context and tafsir including those verse of Military vigilance which i usually quote since i saw none quotes them. I can quote pro peace verses of Noble Quran much more than them by many times

The above bolded you claim are misconceptions or slander about me WHEN I ALWAYS KEEP SAYING TO FOLLOW SAHABAS TOO and their actions & implementation is the endorsement of our deen...So misquoters and mischief makers we cant talk or agree with them anything . Sorry, Lakum deenukum waliya deen will be our paths.

I follow that hadith which are more than 10 from different collectors which AFFIRM WHO ARE THE BEST OF THE UMMAH (the three generations) , more than anything else and the Madhab Imams statement to leave their fatwa if they go against any authentic hadith. We take fiqh ONLY when the matters are confusing or not clear.

THIS IS A REMINDER FOR THOSE WHO THINK NONE UNDERSTANDS ISLAM EXCEPT THEM

DIFFERENCE OF OPNION AMONG SAHABAS
Muslim :: Book 19 : Hadith 4374
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah who said: On the day he returned from the Battle of Ahzab, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made for us an announcement that nobody would say his Zuhr prayer but in the quarters of Banu Quraiza (Some) people, being afraid that the time for prayer would expire, said their prayers before reaching the street of Banu Quraiza. The others said: We will not say our prayer except where the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has ordered us to say it even if the time expires. (When he learned of the difference in the view of the two groups of the people, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) did not blame anyone from the two groups.

asalam alaikum

 

[talibilm]

Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 3 :: Hadith 98

Narrated Abu Huraira:
I said: "O Allah's Apostle! Who will be the luckiest person, who will gain your intercession on the Day of Resurrection?" Allah's Apostle said: O Abu Huraira! "I have thought that none will ask me about it before you as I know your longing for the (learning of) Hadiths. The luckiest person who will have my intercession on the Day of Resurrection will be the one who said sincerely from the bottom of his heart "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah."And 'Umar bin 'Abdul 'Aziz wrote to Abu Bakr bin Hazm, "Look for the knowledge of Hadith and get it written, as I am afraid that religious knowledge will vanish and the religious learned men will pass away (die). Do not accept anything save the Hadiths of the Prophet. Circulate knowledge and teach the ignorant, for knowledge does not vanish except when it is kept secretly (to oneself)."



UPDATING HADITHS & Noble Quran verses FOR EXTREME THINKERS SINCE WE SHOULD FOLLOW SAHABA AND UNDERSTAND LIKE THEY UNDERSTOOD


Muslim :: Book 32 : Hadith 6330
'Urwa b. Zubair reported that Hisham b. Hakim found a person (the ruler of Hims) who had been detaining some Nabateans in connection with the dues of Jizya. He said: What is this? I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah would torment those persons who torment people in the world.

Muslim :: Book 32 : Hadith 6328
Hisham reported on the authority of his father that Hisham b. Hakim b. Hizam happened to pass by people, the farmers of Syria, who had been made to stand in the sun. He said: What is the matter with them? They said: They have been detained for Jizya. Thereupon Hisham said: I bear testimony to the fact that I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah would torment those who torment people in the world.


Muslim :: Book 32 : Hadith 6329
This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Hisham with the same chain of transmitters and he made this addition of Jarir that (Hisham b. Hakim) went to Umair b. Sa'd who was then ruler in Palestine and he narrated to him this hadith and he (submitting before the words of the Prophet) commanded that they should be let off and so they were let off.


NOTE : during the Khilafah of Umar Ibn Al Khattab Radhi-yallaahu 'anhu, when he saw an old Jewish man begging, so he ordered he be provided for from the treasury of the Muslims. THIS HOW SAHABAS DEALT even WITH A JEW .



Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 88 :: Hadith 184
Narrated 'Abdullah and Abu Musa: The Prophet said, "Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which Religious ignorance will spread, knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and there will be much Al-Harj, and Al-Harj means killing."


PROTECT DHIMMIS
Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 53 :: Hadith 391
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr: The Prophet said, "Whoever killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims, shall not smell the smell of Paradise though its smell is perceived from a distance of forty years."



PEACE TREATY AS EASY AS THIS


Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 53 :: Hadith 387
NArrated Abu Humaid As-Saidi: We accompanied the Prophet in the Ghazwa of Tabuk and the king of 'Aila presented a white mule and a cloak as a gift to the Prophet. And the Prophet wrote to him a peace treaty allowing him to keep authority over his country.

 

[talibilm]

PROPHET GUARANTEED ONLY UNTILL TABE'IEN.


Sayyidina lmran ibn Husayn (RA) reported that Allah’s Messenger said, The best of my ummah is the generation to which 1 have been sent, then they who will follow them.’ The narrator said, ‘And I do not remember if he mentioned the third (generation) or not, “After that’, the Prophet (SAW) said, “A people will come who will voluntarily give testimony, they will commit treachery and will not be trustworthy. They will be corpulent, generally. [Bukhari 2651]


Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 57 :: Hadith 3
Narrated Abdullah: The Prophet said, "The best people are those living in my generation, and then those who will follow them, and then those who will follow the latter. Then there will come some people who will bear witness before taking oaths, and take oaths before bearing witness." (Ibrahim, a sub-narrator said, "They used to beat us for witnesses and covenants when we were still children.")


Muslim :: Book 31 : Hadith 6159
'A'isha reported that a person asked Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as to who amongst the people were the best. He said: Of the generation to which I belong, then of the second generation (generation adjacent to my generation), then of the third generation (generation adjacent to the second generation).


Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 57 :: Hadith 2
Narrated Imran bin Husain: "Allah's Apostle said, 'The best of my followers are those living in my generation (i.e. my contemporaries). and then those who will follow the latter" 'Imran added, "I do not remember whether he mentioned two or three generations after his generation, then the Prophet added, 'There will come after you, people who will bear witness without being asked to do so, and will be treacherous and untrustworthy, and they will vow and never fulfill their vows, and fatness will appear among them."


Muslim :: Book 31 : Hadith 6150
Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The best of my Umma would be those of the generation nearest to mine. Then those nearest to them, then those nearest to them, then people would come whose witness would precede the oath and the oath will precede the witness. Hannad has not made the mention of Qarn in his narration. Qutaiba said that, instead of the word Qaum, the word Aqwam has been used.


Muslim :: Book 31 : Hadith 6154
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may, peace be upon him) as saying: The best age of my Umma is one in which I was sent (by Allah as an Apostle), then the one next to that. (The narrator said): And Allah knows best whether he stated this third (time) or not. Then there would come people who would love (to look) bulky and they would hasten to the witness box before they are asked to bear witness.


Muslim :: Book 31 : Hadith 6153
'Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: The best among people are of my generation, then those next to them. (The narrator said): I do not know whether (he said) it three times or four times. Then there would fellow after them such persons whose evidence would precede the oath, and in case of some others, the oath (would precede) the evidence.

And the above hadith there are more than 10 even from many other collectors other the four top ones shows the authenticity so take your deen from them as much as possible and if you cant find in them THEN go to fiqh and ulamas and even a fatwa of a ulama disturbs your heart you can avoid it.

PROOF HERE

Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wasallam) said: “Ask yourself for a decision, ask your heart for a decision (saying it three times.) Righteousness is that with which the soul is tranquil and the heart is tranquil, but sin is that which rouses suspicion in the soul and is perplexing in the breast, even if people give you a decision in its favour.” [Mishkat]


Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wasallam) said: “Leave that which causes you doubt for that which does not cause you doubt.” [Tirmidhi]




NOTE: Everybody has within them the sense to distinguish right from wrong. And each person will be held accountable for using this sense. It is possible to twist facts and get people to give the decision that you want to hear, but if your heart is not at peace with the decision then know that it is most likely sinful for you to act on it EVEN IF SUCH STRANGE FATWA CAME FROM A MUFTI . Unfortunately, if a person sins enough then the heart becomes dead and the ability to feel disquiet dies.


Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wasallam) said: “Leave that which causes you doubt for that which does not cause you doubt.” [Tirmidhi]


This hadith is one of the ahadith around which the whole religion revolves: it is the foundation of scrupulousness (wara) around which revolves certainty; and it brings relief from the dark oppressiveness of doubts and speculation.

 

[Serinity]

Bro @talibilm, I understand you bro.

But I also understand Bro Huzaifah.

The ayahs Huzaifah quoted, should also be understood in context. Not just read up-front. Islam came as a Mercy to Mankind. and the Prophet Muhammad :saws: did not come to curse, but as a Mercy.

he wanted to demonstrate how interpretation of Ayaats require understanding of Deen, and knowledge of context wherein it was revealed. Qur'aan and Sunnah is all we need. But we also need Fiqh, and tafsirs, so that the Muslims who are not scholars can understand. (I know you agree on that, )

Islam is not a Pacifistic Religion, but a religion of Truth and Reality. If someone stormed your house and wanted you killed, you'd defend yourself, be it by force, right?

And this whole Offensive Jihad, should be understood in context.

When you think of Offensive Jihad, you probably think of barbarians who invade countries, say "convert" if no, then slaughter, rince and repeat. Right? That isn't how it goes.

Muslims weren't barbarians, but they werent pacifists either. BUT, they wanted peace. They were not warmongers - they didn't do war just for the sake of it.

Remember when Umar R.a. stopped himself from killing a Mushrik, because he went to Jihad for the SAKE of Allah, not to pleasure himself, or to avenge in his anger? When a Mushrik spat on him R.A. he got angry, and wanted to kill him, but didn't???

In Jihad, we do it for Allah, none else. Not for ourselves.
Tafsir and Fiqh IS important.

Please correct me if I said anything wrong.

And Allah :swt: knows best.

 

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

Those posts of brother talibilm above are very long but aren't exactly saying anything definitive, are they. I thlnk we need to do this in a point-by-point process:

Point #1:

Brother talibilm, do you believe that laymen do not need to follow a Madh-hab of Fiqh, and that they can open up an English translation of the Qur'aan and an English translation of a Hadeeth Kitaab and take out rulings from there?

This is the first point that needs to be addressed, before coming to anything else.

 

[Serinity]

Those posts of brother talibilm above are very long but aren't exactly saying anything definitive, are they. I thlnk we need to do this in a point-by-point process:

Point #1:

Brother talibilm, do you believe that laymen do not need to follow a Madh-hab of Fiqh, and that they can open up an English translation of the Qur'aan and an English translation of a Hadeeth Kitaab and take out rulings from there?

This is the first point that needs to be addressed, before coming to anything else.

Lets do this for the subject on Offensive / Defensive Jihad too.

I think this is a good approach, since it will be easier for the one's in the future reading it.

I know Talibilm, he is a very good brother. And I don't disagree with him. Tbh, I think this whole thing is a huge misunderstanding.

No offense, I love both of you for the sake of Allah. Lets make this easier for all of us, for The sake of Allah. As brothers in Islam. Okay?

may Allah help all of us. Ameen.

 

[talibilm]

Fiqh indeed is to understand, however often we see especially in this day and age, that fiqh (understanding/interpretation) of a scholar in the past has been held in such a regard if you do not agree with it, you somehow are being branded is a "kafir" by the Muslims of today. Which is not true. As there are multiple mathabs and they don't agree on small things with each other, but yet nobody can brand a follower of another mathab as misguided. They don't agree with each other, yet they are all right in their interpretation.

I am of opinion, that one first has to learn what already exist of understanding of previous scholars. They may contain some understanding which in the light of the modern day can be seen differently and thus disagree with them and give their own fiqh off course with a bit of knowledge..not like..the ignorance of us Muslims of today. Upon existing fiqh that is even valid in the light of the modern day, but rather general understanding, one can off course go a little bit in more detail because of more scientific discovery has been made.

Without fiqh..i think we then talk about ISIS type of guys. Among them are many who are VERY VERY knowledgeable about the Qur'an and Sunnah, yet they don't understand it.

Knowing something, doesn't mean you understand it. As support to this claim.


"Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient," Qur'an 2:26

Looking from a logical point of view we see that both the guided and the misguided have obtained the SAME KNOWLEDGE, yet one understands it and the other doesn't. So knowledge is not the same as understanding.

This i think is also a bit of a problem of the current generation of us Muslims. We read the Qur'an but we do not ponder about what Allah(swt) might be trying to tell us. I am also of opinion that ones state of the heart really is crucial to understanding it. When we look at a misguided person, he can't understand it, no matter how many hours or years of his life he spends on it. The diseases of the heart or not even willing to spend time on it to ponder about it. It amazes me time and time again that majority of us Muslims of the current day blindly follow Islam.

There is i believe a hadith ( you guys are way better with knowledge than me and maybe confirm or correct me), that whoever ponders about the meaning of an aya and his conclusion is wrong, he gets 1 reward and the one who gets the right meaning he will get 2 rewards.

Yet, even my own family who have been Muslims their whole life, see pondering about Qur'an as if it is something dangerous. While there is a clear difference between saying..yes i understand it and it is like this and nothing else..or saying i THINK i understand this and correct me if i am wrong (willing to learn). In the mean time read the fiqh of scholars and learn one or two new things with it. While often, no pondering is done only what fuqaha has said is being adopted.

Its agreed Fiqh basically means is to understand but the practical thing the ummah grasps or understand its as the deriving of rules by different madhabi Imaams.

Those imaams differ but when those esteemed imams have told us to leave their fatwa when it goes against any authentic hadith WE MUST FOLLOW their order particularly in these sensitive matters of Jihad etc which could cause confusion and chaos and fitna is worse than killing.

When we see the later imaam like Shafi who had studied from Maliki and Imam Malik studied from Imaam Hanifa JUST IMPLIES the difference of opinions occur when the later imaams like Sha fi imaam found different authentic hadith. And we cant expect all Imaams to have found all hadiths at the same time , that is proved here by difference in salah method by various Imaams.

We can bring Sharia Law only in muslim majority country and gradually and not in a day at once. To start Sharia We need such maturity ( like in the case oF Iran where Piety lovers were in majority but fitna Shah lovers were doing fitna. the Zeal with Shias are lacking in sunnis was Dr Israar's statement ). but I its absurd to talk of a world Muslim invasion and ask for Jizzya while we ourselves ( The Muslim countries ) are not on Islam and we have become cowards and laggards in Military . lol that irritates me, as some claim

 

[Simple_Person]

I think both of you are saying the same, but not understanding one another. As if person X is saying stay on the straight path for guidance, while person Y says do not deviate from the straight road. The difference is minimal, but but it is saying exactly the same thing, but from another perspective.

 

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

I know Talibilm, he is a very good brother.

I'm sure that he is. I don't doubt that. He is writing to defend what he believes to be the Haqq, as am I. When there are two parties that each are certain that their view is the correct one, then a Mujaadalah bil-Ihsaan (debate on good terms) is done to determine which group is correct.

But in order to do that, each group must first understand what is the standpoint of the other group. What is the premise of their argument. Right now, this first point deals with the issue of following a Madh-hab, and whether or not a layman can derive rulings on his own without referring to the `Ulamaa.

My standpoint is that following one of the four Madhaahib, namely, Hanafi, Maaliki, Shaafi`i, or Hanbali, is necessary for the layman. Even Salafis like al-Munajjid hold this same view.

Now, I need the brother, talibilm, to answer the question I asked above. I need to know what exactly his standpoint is with regards to the issue of Madhaahib.

No offense, I love both of you for the sake of Allah. Lets make this easier for all of us, for The sake of Allah. As brothers in Islam. Okay?

may Allah help all of us. Ameen.

آمين يا رب العالمين​

 

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

In case the post was lost:

------------

Point #1:

"Brother talibilm, do you believe that laymen do not need to follow a Madh-hab of Fiqh, and that they can open up an English translation of the Qur'aan and an English translation of a Hadeeth Kitaab and take out rulings from there?"

 

[talibilm]

Its agreed Fiqh basically means is to understand but the practical thing the ummah grasps or understand its as the deriving of rules by different madhabi Imaams.

Those imaams differ but when those esteemed imams have told us to leave their fatwa when it goes against any authentic hadith WE MUST FOLLOW their order particularly in these sensitive matters of Jihad etc which could cause confusion and chaos and fitna is worse than killing.

When we see the later imaam like Shafi who had studied from Maliki and Imam Malik studied from Imaam Hanifa JUST IMPLIES the difference of opinions occur when the later imaams like Sha fi imaam found different authentic hadith. And we cant expect all Imaams to have found all hadiths at the same time , that is proved here by difference in salah method by various Imaams.

We can bring Sharia Law only in muslim majority country and gradually and not in a day at once. To start Sharia We need such maturity ( like in the case oF Iran where Piety lovers were in majority but fitna Shah lovers were doing fitna. the Zeal with Shias are lacking in sunnis was Dr Israar's statement ). but I its absurd to talk of a world Muslim invasion and ask for Jizzya while we ourselves ( The Muslim countries ) are not on Islam and we have become cowards and laggards in Military . lol that irritates me, as some claim

Its too late to bed for me, and so to answer further but the above post should help and May Allah guide us all ameen , wasalam.

 

[Simple_Person]

In case the post was lost:

------------

Point #1:

"Brother talibilm, do you believe that laymen do not need to follow a Madh-hab of Fiqh, and that they can open up an English translation of the Qur'aan and an English translation of a Hadeeth Kitaab and take out rulings from there?"

Brother, read the comment of brother talibilm, careful. He has NOT claimed such a thing. His argument is, we must follow Qur'an and Sunnah and if there is no clear ruling or understanding of something we resort to the fiqh of the scholars. Which is indeed how it is. While you it looks like seem to understand that brother talibilm is saying..no fiqh is needed whatsoever, while he is not saying that. Laymen such as me, i often try to understand something first then i resort to what scholars have said about it. Often my own general understanding is close, but after reading what scholars have said about it i even obtain more understanding of it. My BASIC principle is ISLAM = Peace. So if my understanding would say..go kill people out of nowhere without any context or whatsoever, that means it is being contradictory to the BASIC principle of Islam = peace even to the fitrah of the human being is being contradictory.

 

[Serinity]

Brother, read the comment of brother talibilm, careful. He has NOT claimed such a thing. His argument is, we must follow Qur'an and Sunnah and if there is no clear ruling or understanding of something we resort to the fiqh of the scholars. Which is indeed how it is. While you it looks like seem to understand that brother talibilm is saying..no fiqh is needed whatsoever, while he is not saying that. Laymen such as me, i often try to understand something first then i resort to what scholars have said about it. Often my own general understanding is close, but after reading what scholars have said about it i even obtain more understanding of it. My BASIC principle is ISLAM = Peace. So if my understanding would say..go kill people out of nowhere without any context or whatsoever, that means it is being contradictory to the BASIC principle of Islam = peace even to the fitrah of the human being is being contradictory.

And Islam does not say to go and kill people out of nowhere, even if they are kafirs. That is prohibited.

I have chatted with ISIS people, and they said that killing innocents was OK, and that killing civilians, be it your neighbours, etc. or to steal from kuffar from America, etc. Is ok.

Obviously it is not. They think since America bombs muslims, that whole America is free pass to being murdered. That all civilians are equally responsible.

They think killing civilians is ok cuz America kills Muslims. 2 wrongs doesn't make a right. And this mindset of "you kill my child, I kill your child" is contrary to Islam, and has its roots back in Jahiliyaah.

They quote the "Eye for Eye" ayaat as justification, with no understanding of it. In translation they are saying "It is ok to kill a the child of a murderer"

It is like "If I kill your child, can you kill my child?" the answer to that, is no. you can kill me. But, being vigilant is not allowed. So even if I did, you can not kill me without court, etc.

I understand you. Killing people out of nowhere, brings no peace. It is contrary to Islam. I can not fight without reason, either.

Astaghfirullah if I said anything wrong. Please correct me if I said anything wrong.

And Allah :swt: knows best.