Sikhism

[Zohair]

post the ayat agian, i cant seem to find it..

you said that people who follow the qur'an correctly will not go astray. in these ayats, and in what the Prophet Muhammad SAW says don't follow any other religions after Islam, because Islam is the final religion and the Prophet Muhammad SAW is the last and final messenger. you said guru and prophet are different things, well the prophet SAW also said that there is to be no religion after Islam.

here are the verses:

Surah (chapter) 33 verse 40:

*{Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of Allah and the seal of all the prophets. And Allah knows all things.}*

and the Prophet SAW said:

"O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur’an and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray."

I think that if someone as big as guru nanek were to come, the prophet SAW would have told us of his coming, as the prophets in the past have told their people about the Prophet Muhammad SAW.

the Prophet Muhammad SAW gave accurate predictions of what would happen from the time of his death until the day of judgement. all the major signs and the minor signs, he spoke of Jesus christ returning to this earth and killing the anit-christ (dajjal). he did not speak about guru nanek. If guru nanek were to be a true person of god, Prophet Muhammad SAW would have surely told us about him.

Also, the Muslims after the Prophet Muhammad SAW, some of them went astray yes, but the majority were on the right path. and you don't need a messenger to come after and guide people to the right way again because the prophet SAW left the qur'an and sunnah so that mankind will always have the truth with them.

 

[amardeep]

the muslims went conquering the world, killing thousand of thousands of civilians..do you call this the sunnah of the prophet?

Yazid, the chaliph, murdered the Profets family in Kerbala..do you call this a just rule?? most muslims went astray..they forgot about God and started conquering the world.

nowhere in the Quran is it stated that Muhammad saws is for mankind. it says Wa Khattam al Nabeen, but Guru Maharaj never claimed to be a Nabi or a rasool..they were sent by God to put people back on their rightfull path, be it Islam or hinduism, or Sikhism if that is what they want and desire.

no scripture preaches of Muhammad..all of the prophecies has been debunked by budhist, hindues, christians and jews....

and u say "If guru nanek were to be a true person of god, Prophet Muhammad SAW would have surely told us about him.".

u say surely..which means that you are making a conclusion of your own..why would Muhammad talk about a person, who noone would be alive to see? Guru Nanak Maharaj was born 800 years after all of the remaining sahabas of Muhammad were dead..who would he say it to??

the Ahlul Bayt of Shii'sm actually talks about a divine crowd of people in India...here is your proof and prophecy...

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

I think that if someone as big as guru nanek were to come, the prophet SAW would have told us of his coming, as the prophets in the past have told their people about the Prophet Muhammad SAW.

the Prophet Muhammad SAW gave accurate predictions of what would happen from the time of his death until the day of judgement. all the major signs and the minor signs, he spoke of Jesus christ returning to this earth and killing the anit-christ (dajjal). he did not speak about guru nanek. If guru nanek were to be a true person of god, Prophet Muhammad SAW would have surely told us about him.

Also, the Muslims after the Prophet Muhammad SAW, some of them went astray yes, but the majority were on the right path. and you don't need a messenger to come after and guide people to the right way again because the prophet SAW left the qur'an and sunnah so that mankind will always have the truth with them.

Well you live by what the Koran says we live by what the Guru Granth Ji says!

If monahmmed didn't prophecise the coming of Guru Nanak that to us is of no relevence all we know is Guru ji came and Sikhi is the result!

 

[Zohair]

Muhammad is a mercy to the entire world - that is in the qur'an and it is a very famous line.

I use the word "surely" because I am "sure", he would have told us about him. because muhammad was not only for the arabs of his time, he was for the whole world and the people after him, so he gave us prophecies of people who would come. the Mahdi is a good example, none of the sahaba will be alive to see him.

and it says here that NO NEW FATIH will be born

"O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur’an and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray."

 

[amardeep]

lol....are you using that quote as evidence?? even muslims are arguing on what he said that day..u say Quran and Hadith, while shia say Quran and Ahlul Bayt...that is not an evidence..

and so what if he talked about mahdi? he hasent come yet, and even Jesus talked about him..nothing new there..

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Muhammad is a mercy to the entire world - that is in the qur'an and it is a very famous line.

I use the word "surely" because I am "sure", he would have told us about him. because muhammad was not only for the arabs of his time, he was for the whole world and the people after him, so he gave us prophecies of people who would come. the Mahdi is a good example, none of the sahaba will be alive to see him.

and it says here that NO NEW FATIH will be born

"O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur’an and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray."

If the koran claims that adam and moses etc are prophets, why do you not revert back to being Jews/christians as they were the first and your ancestors were jews/christians! Why even bother with Islam?

 

[Zohair]

No offence, but this debate is just pointless and a waste of time. I suggest you EDUCATE yourselves about islam before you try to debate it. some of your points are too nonsensical. don't believe things that people tell you, go to the direct source. there were many things in the last few posts that were just blatantly (if thats a word) WRONG.

aight, I'm outta here, peeaccee

 

[starfortress]

greeting to all

After a long observation in sikh, i think sikh is pluralism in relegion,like someone describe in the last few post "different transport reach the same destination"
Islam never accept the concept of "pluralism in relegion practise" or as it doctrine,but we could accept it in other context(case) like a comparative religion or interfaith dialogue,...btw the the plurism theory is "easy on paper but hard to practise" isn't it?
Islam, like most other monotheistic faiths, views itself as the only true path for following the will of God and going to Paradise. Nonetheless, Muslims consider the monotheistic faiths that precededed it, Judaism and Christianity, as valid for their followers. (Qur'an, Sura 5, verse 44 and verses 46-7, verse 69)

peace

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

I came across these verses, if anyone could shed light please!

The Koran commands Muslims not to befriend Jews or Christists "0 ye who believe (Muslims) take not the Jews or the Christists for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them" (Surat AI-Maidah 5:51).

"Kill the Mushrikun (polytheists, Christists and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-salat (public prayer with Muslims) and give Zakat (Islamic alms), then leave their way free. Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful' (Surat At-Taubah 9;5).

 

[jss]

lol I understand that but a person said that sikh's believe in the qur'an, but they don't believe it was the final scripture, and they don't believe Muhammad SAW, was hte last prophet, so I put those verses.

The Guru Granth Sahib emphasises respect for all religions. If someone calls the Quran false then that is contrary to the Guru's teachings.
Furthermore there have been and many amazing Muslims who do alot of good deeds and serve humanity in this dark age. Therefore to malign a whole group of people due to their beliefs is totally wrong and not gurmat (the Guru's path)

Now the difference between the Guru Granth Sahib and other scriptures is this.
Guru means:-
Gu=from darkness
Ru=into light

The Guru Granth Sahib contains the treasure of the Lord and guides us on on a simpler and better path to be unison with the almighty. There is guidance on how to live and reach the highest goal, finding God within oneself and become God realised. There is only one command in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji-and that is jap (meditate).

Not everyone, due to their karam or karma has the chance to reach this stage of spiritual development. One would only step on this path of gurmat by Gurprasad (Guru's grace).

Hope that clarifies a few things.

bhul chuk maaf

GurFateh

 

[Mohsin]

TWe say the followers of Islam and hinduism went astray.
Hindu scriptures only talks about One God..hinduism is a monoteistic religion, yet the followers worship several Gods..they fell astray from their scriptures in many ways.

same goes with muslims. Right after the death of Muhamad, Muslims started robbing and conquering the world. yet Muhammad never attacked a different tribe or nation. he only deffended himself. they killed people, and forced indians to become muslims...destroyed churches and hindu temples, even though muhammad never did such a thing..

Muslims focused more on this life, on creating a huge khilafah state, and forgot all about their Imaan and spirituality...therefore, Guru Nanak was sent to this earth by Allah Subhana Wa Tala..not as a Nabi, not as a rasool,,,but as a Guru...a spiritual teacher.

there are just a few examples on how people fell astray from the original teachings of Islam, hinduism and chrittianty...

Yes but the problem here is you are generalising. Not all muslims had gone astray. A lot were still practising good muslims, its only the corrupt rulers in power who had gone astray due to the money they now had which got to their heads. There is nthinh wrong with the initial revelation that Allah SWT sent down, as some poeple were still practising it, some weren't. Now in islam this life is a test for us, so it's obvious that those who follow the laws will attain salvation on T.D.O.J. but those who don't follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, ie unpractising muslims, they could end up in hell.

But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the revelation, or for that matter it doesn't mean there is any need for God to send another teacher like Guru Nanek. For example he was sent right? Did he ALL bring muslims back to the true path? No. Even if you look at all the sikh followers, i know of so many sikhs who drink, gamble, do drugs have girlfriends withour parents knowing. These are going against the teachings of Guru nanek. So according to you if Guru Nanek came to bring all people back to the true path then i guess he failed pretty badly. So that leads me to ask why would God say the Shariah (The law) to prophet Muhammed PBUH is eternal for the rest of time, for the rest of mankind, and that there will be no Prophet to come, but yet God a few hundred years later sends 10 Gurus with new rules. Are you suggesting God changed his mind??

In Islam it is simple. This life is a test. We will be tested through many things, wealth, poverty, death to relatives and many others, all the time God is testing us to see how loyal we stay and there will be salvation for those who stayed loyal on The Day of Judgement.

 

[Mohsin]

Nanak rejected the notion of any religion, and hence neither argument from either side makes any sense)

Yes but then Why had the same God sent down religions previously to the other messengers

but if you read the actual application of those terms, you will see that Guru Nanak is very respectfully saying that such practices - be they Muslim or Hindu practices - are of little merit. They do not make one a better person or make one 'a favourite of God'. The only thing worth anything is a humble and compassionate life

There are many errors with your above statement. Firstly it also says in The Qur'an the only way we differ in front of God is by piety, not by what Sex we are, what race we come from, our lineage, age wealth, but our piety alone.

49:13 O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allah is the most pious. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.​

Now we attain piety by following the rules and commands of God. Now all the rituals Guru nanek mentions above are what God (my God, your God, and the God that send Prophet Muhammed PBUH whom you believe in) has instruct3d us to do. is that clear, so these aren't useless rituals that are of little merit. I don't understand why would Guru nanek speak against what God had ordained for previous Prophets

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Even if you look at all the sikh followers, i know of so many sikhs who drink, gamble, do drugs have girlfriends withour parents knowing. These are going against the teachings of Guru nanek. So according to you if Guru Nanek came to bring all people back to the true path then i guess he failed pretty badly. So that leads me to ask why would God say the Shariah (The law) to prophet Muhammed PBUH is eternal for the rest of time, for the rest of mankind, and that there will be no Prophet to come, but yet God a few hundred years later sends 10 Gurus with new rules. Are you suggesting God changed his mind??

.

They were brought back into the correct path, at that time. Yes, Sikhs have faultered but we could argue so have the muslims, christians, jews etc etc. But that has no reflection on the teachings of the prophets does it? It's solely on us!

As for God chaining his mind, ohi janae. But he felt it necessary to send Guru Nanak. Otherwise he wouldn't have sent him would he!

 

[Mohsin]

Where does it say that Muhammad is for entire of mankind?

and if he was, yet again, why did'n he travel to the world?

i've read the letters he sent to persia and etopia...they only say he is the messenger of God and i invite you to Islam.....

how does this make him a universal prophet, if he did'n even leave the side of Arabia?

at the time of Muhammad, only the people near him were muslims. at the time of the Gurus, there were sikhs in afghanistan, iran and iraq as well as india..

The Prophet said: 'Every Prophet used to be sent to his people alone but I have been sent to all mankind'. (Sahîh Bukhârî)

It says in The Qur'an he is the seal of the prophethood, and Allah also says he is the mercy for the rest of mankind, i will try and find it for you insha'allah

 

[Mohsin]

post the ayat agian, i cant seem to find it..

Which ayah?

do you think that when the muslims after the death of Muhammad pbuh went and conquered the world, killing tens of thousands of people, that they were following the sunnah? they fell astray...."muslims" started loving this world more than the afterlife..

we are not saying that the true muslims who follow the Quran, are astray..but the fact of the matter is, that there are more people claiming to be muslims not followin the teachings, then there are true muslims following the teachings

I replied to this here

Yes but the problem here is you are generalising. Not all muslims had gone astray. A lot were still practising good muslims, its only the corrupt rulers in power who had gone astray due to the money they now had which got to their heads. There is nthinh wrong with the initial revelation that Allah SWT sent down, as some poeple were still practising it, some weren't. Now in islam this life is a test for us, so it's obvious that those who follow the laws will attain salvation on T.D.O.J. but those who don't follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, ie unpractising muslims, they could end up in hell.

But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the revelation, or for that matter it doesn't mean there is any need for God to send another teacher like Guru Nanek. For example he was sent right? Did he ALL bring muslims back to the true path? No. Even if you look at all the sikh followers, i know of so many sikhs who drink, gamble, do drugs have girlfriends withour parents knowing. These are going against the teachings of Guru nanek. So according to you if Guru Nanek came to bring all people back to the true path then i guess he failed pretty badly. So that leads me to ask why would God say the Shariah (The law) to prophet Muhammed PBUH is eternal for the rest of time, for the rest of mankind, and that there will be no Prophet to come, but yet God a few hundred years later sends 10 Gurus with new rules. Are you suggesting God changed his mind??

In Islam it is simple. This life is a test. We will be tested through many things, wealth, poverty, death to relatives and many others, all the time God is testing us to see how loyal we stay and there will be salvation for those who stayed loyal on The Day of Judgement.

Guru Nanak Maharaj..the only spiritual leader in the world, to ever be accepted by people of all religions..

he's not accepted by Muslims. if he's claimed to be a Prophet then Muslims consider him to be an Anti-Christ. Prophet Muhammed made prophecies of people who will come near the last day, like the return of Prophet Jesus PBUH, and the just ruler Imam Mahdi, but he never mentioned Guru Nanek

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

he's not accepted by Muslims. if he's claimed to be a Prophet then Muslims consider him to be an Anti-Christ. Prophet Muhammed made prophecies of people who will come near the last day, like the return of Prophet Jesus PBUH, and the just ruler Imam Mahdi, but he never mentioned Guru Nanek

Not by the ignorant ones obviously!

He never claimed to be anything other than a servant of God!

 

[Mohsin]

i was going to india and was going to meat my friend there who lives in pakistan.. he took the train to india, while i took the plain.

we both took each of ours mean of transportation, yet we both ended up the same place.

how can u say there is only one way to attain God??? the plain and the train also contradict eachother..
we dont say all religions are true...we just say that people of all religions can attain paradise..

God does not reqire false worship off us. of course if we are righteous and do good deeds then Allah will reward us, i'm not saying he won't. But there is only one path to God. How can there be Heaven or Hell for every single person to be born (As it says in the semetic religions), and at the same time how can there be reincarnation. How can Jesus be a Son of god and a prophet at the same time?

Look at what is says in the Quran here

And they say: the Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a Son. Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing, whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall to ruins, that ye ascribe to the Beneficent a son, when it is not meet for (the Majesty of) the Beneficent that He should chose a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave. (Qur’an 19:88-93)​

You can see how angry God is at people who claim jesus PBUH is more than a prophet. So how can God accept such people who accuse god and his prophets nof such blaspheomous allegations

yes according to Islam they were all muslims. but according to their own scriptures, they did lots of things which Islam forbid...Suleiman married 600 women, and all the prophet did lots of things which is not allowed in Islam.

its like, if i create a religion, and then just say that all previus prophets belonged to my religion, even though all of their scriptures proves me wrong..then i can just say that their scripture is corrupt and VOILA i have a complete platform to create a religion..

Under different periods of History to diifferent nations to different sets of epopel God sent different laws with different purposes. So the laws of before maybe slightly diffferent, ie The jews of prophet Moses PBUH didn't pray 5 times a day but if i'm correct they prayed 2 times a day as this is what God wnated of them. So there is no contradiction. Also even christians and Jews admit openly that some of their scriptures may have been changed. In the Old testament it accuses several priophets of great major sins, as muslims we don't believe that is possible as they are great people that God chose who can't disobey him, therefore these must be alterations by people later.

And you can't simply create a new religion and VOILA
A thats it, your scripture/call/character/religion will be scrutinised and checked to see the validity of the divinity in your message. Qur'an passes such a test everytime with no error or contradiction. Prophet Muhammed for 40 years was known by his people as the truthfuil one, not once was he know to lie, and all of a sudden he started leiing at 40 years of age, and not just that, lieing about the greatet of things, lieing about God?? Illogical in anyonmes opinion

yeah an all of these "propecies" about Muhammad have been proved wrong by christians, hindues and budhists... muslims take verses out of contex and only use the verses which fits to Muhamad..

Not true Hundreds of christians convert because of these prophecies, and as have loadsa Hindus. Of course some will deny, but thats the easy option to take, why don't you judge the prophecies for yourself?

God sent One religion...Worship of God....and this worship can be done in several ways..

Ok why would the prophet Muhammed PBUH tell us then that whovever hears of my message and rejects it will be in the hellfire, and also whoever doesn't pray 5 times a day will sin. Either he is right, or he is wrong

 

[Mohsin]

I think you'll find that the above mentioned are not recognised as religions but sects/cults breakaway groups!

Sikhism is recognised as the 5th largest religion in the world!!

Please note - If we talk about Sikhi not being a major religion Islam/Christainity were spread by the sword on crusades. If Guru Gobind Singh ji wanted to convert masses like the above did, he'd have done it, and it should be noted that he'd have acomplished it without hestitation, and it's possible Sikhism would be the dominating religion of today as the the 6th Guru and the 10th were known Saintly warriors!

But Sikhi isn't about quantity but quality

I find it sad and disappointing for you to make the staememts as above. Islam was not spread by the sword. Okay in india the mioghuls were corrupt rulers, but in places like Malaysia indonesia and the rest of arabia it was free will and choice. Ask yourself logically, today, look at the masses of epople converting to Islam everyday, where is the sword today? If it isn't needed today where everyone is more forward than they were 1400 years ago, then surely it wasn't needed before

 

[Mohsin]

the muslims went conquering the world, killing thousand of thousands of civilians..do you call this the sunnah of the prophet?

this is completely false, this never happened. Maybe a few times by corrupt rulers but in general no such thing ever happened

Yazid, the chaliph, murdered the Profets family in Kerbala..do you call this a just rule?? most muslims went astray..they forgot about God and started conquering the world.

You don't know the history, and context of what happened. there were corrupt rulers, but that doesn't mean there is need for another prophet PBUH. Don't you think God would have known such people will have gone astray? So why did he say no prophet was to come after Muhammed PBUH. And even after the guru came, he diodn't exactly fix this problem, there are still deviant muslims, and even deviant sikhs. According to you does that mean another prophet will come?

nowhere in the Quran is it stated that Muhammad saws is for mankind. it says Wa Khattam al Nabeen, but Guru Maharaj never claimed to be a Nabi or a rasool..they were sent by God to put people back on their rightfull path, be it Islam or hinduism, or Sikhism if that is what they want and desire

[33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of Allah and the seal of all the prophets.​

[21:107] We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples​

 

[Mohsin]

lol....are you using that quote as evidence?? even muslims are arguing on what he said that day..u say Quran and Hadith, while shia say Quran and Ahlul Bayt...that is not an evidence..

and so what if he talked about mahdi? he hasent come yet, and even Jesus talked about him..nothing new there..

We are using it as a quote as you believe the Prophet PBUH to be a true messenger, so whatever thta is in the Qur'an must be from God, and he has said no messenger is to come, so why would God lie then send someone else?