Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Omari]

yes, i understand it now , i just had this very small feeling that if the earth's longtitute was significantly greater than its latitude, than there would have / could have been an error in her example of the basketball and strings. And I asked her if she had conisdered that fact, and I asked it to prove no specific point.
But thanks for the detailed explanation brother
Jazak-allah-hu-khair
peace with you
omari

 

[MuslimCONVERT]

This is in regards to the Music is Haraam arguement.

The problem is Salafi thought has crept into every Muslim home in the world, because the Saudi's have oil money to export it faster than the very oil they are selling. At least 1 Salafi book is in every Masjid, and even people, Sunni Muslims, who profess to have a distaste for Salafi thought are influenced by it.

The Reason is simple, because since the Salafi's do try hard to stick to the Sunnah and the actions of the Tabii'iin and Sahaba, it appears that everything they do must be right, right?

Well, it's not always the case, and it illustrates why Salafism is such a dangerous form of Islam.

One of the many errors of Salafi thought is that we must view everything haraam excepting what Allah (swt) has allowed. -This is not only contrary to centuries of Sunni Islamic thought, but a very difficult way to live. For centuries the creed of Islam was that Muslims should view the world in the exact opposite way... that everything is HALAL except what Allah (swt) has clearly forbidden. For matters of dispute (And music would surely be one of them) the Muslim is supposed to use his or her own reason. (Here the Salafi disagree and say that on disputed matters it is best to follow the Salafi opinion, even though the Prophet (Saas) said on his deathbed that Muslims should use their own individual judgement on matters that are difficult to discern) -Thus Islam has become relegated to the simple idea that no Muslim is allowed to have his or her own opinion, and this is all thanks to the backwards Salafi movement and their infiltration into daily life of every Muslim.

After all, did the Prophet (Saas) not say, "Make it easy, not difficult.." ?

Did Ayesha (raa) not point out concerning the Prophet that he always took the easy way when presented with 2 options so long as it wasn't haraam?

And so here we are at a crossroads... there are many scholars who say music is haraam, and there are many who say it is halal... so what to do?

The answer is there in the Hadith staring us in the face... we use our individual reason and conscience as a judge.

What we don't do is look at it and say, "Well it is useless so it's haraam"

WRONG. Is there no place in Islam for leisure activity? Of course there is. Ask any, and I mean ANY scholar if Muslims should have liesure activity, hobbies, etc, and they will ALL say yes.

Furthermore, it's not useless. Music can be used even as Dthikr of Allah (swt) in some circumstances, and there are Hadith which indicate that the Sahaba and the Prophet himself used it as such.

In other words, LIGHTEN UP.

Salaam

 

[Malaikah]

One of the many errors of Salafi thought is that we must view everything haraam excepting what Allah (swt) has allowed.

I advice you to question the sources of your information, because salafis are themselves sunni Muslims and I have never heard someone who calls them self a salafi make such a claim!

What;s more, the founders of the four sunni schools of thought, i.e. Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik, Imam Ash-shafi3i and Imam Ahmad ALL considered music to be haram!

Imam Abu Hanifa even said that a person how listens to music should have his testimony rejected.

Are you going to tell them to lighten up?

(Here the Salafi disagree and say that on disputed matters it is best to follow the Salafi opinion, even though the Prophet (Saas) said on his deathbed that Muslims should use their own individual judgement on matters that are difficult to discern)

Can you please provide a reliable reference to where salafis say this, or to where the Prophet said this? Because as far as I know, the 'salafis' say the same thing as the sunnis (because they are sunni), which is that the best thing a person can do it follow the safest opinion, and not the 'salafi' opinion.

(What is the salafi opinion anyway? Different 'salafi' scholars will have different opinions on matters, so how can they say follow the salafi opinion when there is no one united salafi opinion?)

But that is not compulsory, the best thing a Muslim can do is stick with a scholar who he trusts and follow his opinion, or follow a certain school of thought, but by no means is a Muslim meant to sit down and try to study different opinions on his own and try to figure out which one is correct, because he is not qualified to do so.

Thus Islam has become relegated to the simple idea that no Muslim is allowed to have his or her own opinion, and this is all thanks to the backwards Salafi movement and their infiltration into daily life of every Muslim.

Yes, just like the sunni scholars have said, the salafi scholars have also said that it is not permissible for the average layman Muslim to come to his own conclusion based on the evidence, because he is not qualified to do so.

WRONG. Is there no place in Islam for leisure activity? Of course there is. Ask any, and I mean ANY scholar if Muslims should have liesure activity, hobbies, etc, and they will ALL say yes.

Yes, indeed there is place for leisure, provided it is halal, and seeing as how the vast majority of Muslim scholars have said that music is haram , I my opinion we should be congratulating those Muslims who choose to stay away from music (whether they do so because they believe it to be haram or whether they do so because they don't want to risk doing something that might be haram) rather than telling them to "lighten up".

There is no good in lightening up about a matter which the majority of scholars consider to be haram, or which a person himself/herself also considers to be haram!

I am sure you mean well brother, but please be careful with your words. You are making accusations that a baseless and only serve to create disunity in the ummah (by falsely accusing salafis) and giving advice that is not in accordance with the sunnah of the messenger.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Let's move on from the discussion of music, can we? I'm sorry I started this thread with that question. At the time I honestly did not realize it was an issue around which such strong feelings could be generated one way or the other. I am convinced that no one who has adopted a position with regard to it are likely to have it changed by any further discussion of it here. And while I have learned much about the issue, especially intially, I can't say I have found any of the discussions the repeat themselves whenever a new poster decided to enter this thread on that topic rather than more recent discussions. So, please, can we simply quit discussing music, that is NOT what this thread is about, it is about many different questions.



I would like to take something from what MuslimCONVERT said and talk about a more general issue. It is something that I know is wrestled with by not just followers of Islam, but also by a significant number of Christians. That has to do what how we determine whether issues that are not specifically addressed in our resepctive scriptures should be understood to be permissible unless we are told that they are definitely to be excluded? Or, should we understand things be be impermissible unless we are specifically told they are allowed. In other words, I am asking does Islam have a default setting? And if so, is it set to consider most things as haraam or most things as halal unless Allah were to specifically to indicate it to be otherwise?

 

[Malaikah]

The principle in Islam is that everything is permissible unless it has been forbidden.

I don't actually know of any difference of opinion on that matter...

 

[Grace Seeker]

The principle in Islam is that everything is permissible unless it has been forbidden.

I don't actually know of any difference of opinion on that matter...

So, what was MuslimCONVERT referring to when he spoke about Salafi? I do see that he called it an error, so I take it that he would affirm what you just said. But were the Salafi not Muslims?

One of the many errors of Salafi thought is that we must view everything haraam excepting what Allah (swt) has allowed.

 

[Malaikah]

I mentioned in my reply that this is not the 'salafi' approach at all. I believe he must be mistaken... unless hew can provide us with some further information about why he made that claim.

 

[crayon]

The principle in Islam is that everything is permissible unless it has been forbidden.

I don't actually know of any difference of opinion on that matter...

That actually depends on the thing itself.
For example, all kinds of food is halal, except for when has been stated otherwise, such as eating dead animals, drinking animal blood, etc.

All kinds of ibada are haram, except for what was told to us. So we can't, for example, jump up and down 50 times saying "allahu akbar", and consider that ibada. Prayer is a form of ibada, as is fasting, etc.

Clothing is mubah, which means allowed. Unless it has been said that it is obligatory or forbidden in a hadith.

So it depends on the thing, really.

Wa Allahu A'lam.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Well, how about just telling me more about the Salafis. This is the first I've heard of them.

 

[Malaikah]

All kinds of ibada are haram, except for what was told to us. So we can't, for example, jump up and down 50 times saying "allahu akbar", and consider that ibada. Prayer is a form of ibada, as is fasting, etc.

Oh, yes! Thank you, I totally forgot that one!

Grace Seeker- what can be said about salafis? The word salafi means one who follows Islam according to the understanding the salaf i.e. the pious predecessors (prophets companions and the early pious Muslims), so in that sense, all sunni Muslims are salafis.

It is a contraversial topic to discuss, so don't be surprised if this discussion gets out of hand... or even closed

You can have a read about it here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-d...eption-response-*******-myth-salafi-path.html

 

[snakelegs]

Oh, yes! Thank you, I totally forgot that one!

Grace Seeker- what can be said about salafis? The word salafi means one who follows Islam according to the understanding the salaf i.e. the pious predecessors (prophets companions and the early pious Muslims), so in that sense, all sunni Muslims are salafis.

It is a contraversial topic to discuss, so don't be surprised if this discussion gets out of hand... or even closed

You can have a read about it here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-d...eption-response-*******-myth-salafi-path.html

this link doesn't work because the forum censors out the word w-a-h-h-a-b-i, which is what salafis do NOT want to be called.
but go to http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-divisions/
and scroll down to the 2nd one from the bottom (misconsception response)
The (W-Word) myth & the Salafi path

 

[Grace Seeker]

Thank-you for the references. The more I read and understand about Islam the more I realize how understanding the 5 Pillars is just touching the tip of the iceberg.

From reading about Salafi, it seems to me that to be a follower of Islam and to say that you believe that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of Allah and that you as an individual you are going to live a life of submission to Allah would automatically mean that each person who took that seriously would see themselves as one who follows Islam according to the understanding the salaf. Thus, each person would see themselves as salafi, for if you weren't following the faith according to the way of the salaf (i.e. Muhammad) then you were either choosing to ignore the Messenger or must feel that the Messenger himself choose not to follow the message he brought. Neither of those views would be internal consistent with anyone who took their faith seriously, so, then it would seem to me that all Muslims who seek to actually keep their faith must view themselves as individual who are following in the way of Muhammad who was (in my form of speech) the model Muslim or best example of the Islamic ideal. And by my present understand that would make them Salafi. Yet I do not hear Salafi used that way. It seems that Salafi is seen as a subgroup within Islam (though perhaps not in the ame way that Sunni and Shi'a are seen as sects). So, if there are those who are and those who are not Salafi, how is it that one might see themselves as practicing Islam but not identify him/herself as Salafi?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ any true muslim will strive to follow Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam, in order to do that they must follow those who best follow Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam and that is the salaf (first four generations after the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam). The best preservations of the salaf are compiled in the madhabs and thus it is recommended that all scholars follow madhabs.


I hope that makes at least slight sense.


Peace Grace

 

[crayon]

I've actually never even heard of the word "salafi" until I read it in this thread..

 

[Grace Seeker]

^ any true muslim will strive to follow Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam, in order to do that they must follow those who best follow Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam and that is the salaf (first four generations after the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam). The best preservations of the salaf are compiled in the madhabs and thus it is recommended that all scholars follow madhabs.


I hope that makes at least slight sense.


Peace Grace

Well, your words make sense. But I don't see how they answer my question:

Why are some Muslims known as salafis and some not, if all Muslims are doing their best to be followers of Islam according to the understanding the salaf?

 

[m102313]

i'm thankful that they don't, because muslims make some of the greatest music in the world!

Do they :?

I only know of stupid rappers with nasty lyrics that are muslims.

 

[snakelegs]

Do they :?

I only know of stupid rappers with nasty lyrics that are muslims.

YES!
nusrat fateh ali khan qawwali in general) and oum kalthoum. need i say more? 1st is from pakistan 2nd is from egypt. sadly, both are gone now.
also many of the top hindustani (north indian classical) musicians are muslims. persian classical is also wonderful.

 

[snakelegs]

Edit

 

[جوري]

YES!
nusrat fateh ali khan qawwali in general) and oum kalthoum. need i say more? 1st is from pakistan 2nd is from egypt. sadly, both are gone now.
also many of the top hindustani (north indian classical) musicians are muslims. persian classical is also wonderful.

you seem like the oum kulthoum sort..
I only like two songs by her.. one of them is about mecca
called ar'rida wa noor الرضا و النور
reminds me of the old country and my grandmother's house.. imsad

peace

 

[Woodrow]

Well, how about just telling me more about the Salafis. This is the first I've heard of them.

It isn't so much that salafi are a specific group or attend any type specialized Mosque.

From what I have read in your posts and the implications of what others said I think it is safe to assume that the concept of salafi is "A Muslim who tries to life as Muhammad(PBUH) did." And that is a good description of what salafi should be.

However, the people who get called Salafi are more like somebody who follows blind obedience and places more importance on the actions, than on the reason for the action. I know several people I would call salafi, some are very pious people and they do their best to life a pious life by doing as Muhammad(PBUH) did. They seem to have an honest intent and do not jusdge others or consider them selfs more pious than others. While there are others I call salafi and they seem to match the derogatory usage of salafi, in that they act like the "Haram Police".

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4Q1vHQxsss[/media]