Why are you an atheist?

[جوري]

Wow really? I wonder if that has anything to do with living in a society and often in a family that lables them abominations, forbids them from marrying the ones they love, forbids them to adopt, and generally sneers at who they are. Note how most of the links connected to the one you posted are about bullying.

Yeah really.. turn that wonder into reality and get back to me with whether their anal cancer has to do with society's 'hate' or their own actions are contributory... along with why they're so sad when they go home to their lovers and not society (and why that doesn't seem enough to quell their psychology) I am not big on speculations!

The It Gets Better campaign direclty addresses this. Once these kids grow up and get away from these parents and peers who hate them for who they are, if often does get better for them in later life. Not all homosexuals get bogged down with depression, etc. Many actually wind up as super happy, friendly and dare I say it, gay.

Your friend isn't what we're reading about, the exception isn't the law.. furthermore if what we've to go by are people who have gotten away from their family and amassed wealth and fame then it still wouldn't explain the high death and suicide rate amongst gay celebrities .. surely they're the most cultivated and have all of the devil's kingdom in Hollywood applauding them..

But we're getting off topic again

Not really.. now we're discussing the morality and tenets of atheism .. I think it is a subheading..

best,

 

[Ramadhan]

The discussion has veered off topic.
Please stay on topic.

 

[جوري]

To be fair, my sister is a lesbian and she was tormented much of her school life. She was beaten up more than once. A fair amount of gay people don't exactly have it easy.

How would others know that your sister is Lesbian?
I don't know anyone who wasn't bullied in school save maybe two or three popular girls.

Are you aware that most homosexuals are theists?

You can't subscribe to any organized religion and be gay..

best,

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: why are you a Athiest?

Pygo, you said that the reason you don't believe in the existence of The creator of everything is the same reason you don't hold beliefs in ghosts, ESP, space aliens or time travelers invisible amongst us, faeries, etc.

So, could you please tell us exactly why you don't hold beliefs in ghosts, ESP, space aliens or time travelers invisible amongst us, faeries, etc.?

This would shed light into atheism for me (and I'm sure also to many of us).

Thank you.

 

[SorayaCali]

How would others know that your sister is Lesbian?
I don't know anyone who wasn't bullied in school save maybe two or three popular girls.

Well she was openly dating a woman in high school, and whenever asked, she doesn't hide her sexual orientation. She got abused and beaten for it more than once. Also slandered a lot by people. She had to move schools even once because they just wouldn't stop. So abuse of gay people does happen, even here in California.

 

[جوري]

Well she was openly dating a woman in high school, and whenever asked, she doesn't hide her sexual orientation. She got abused and beaten for it more than once. Also slandered a lot by people. She had to move schools even once because they just wouldn't stop. So abuse of gay people does happen, even here in California.

So you don't think that she was seeking positive reinforcement? Most people keep their private lives private and nurture not expose it. Hence you don't see heterosexual parades or people advertising their heterosexuality. I don't approve of bullying in any form for any reason but love is sacred and should be kept to ones personal life.

 

[Ramadhan]

We definitely have plenty of threads about homosexuality already.

I'm sure we all still have plenty of on topic to discuss with our resident atheist, mr. pygoscelis

 

[SorayaCali]

Hence you don't see heterosexual parades or people advertising their heterosexuality.

Well I think it's because no one is hurting and hunting down heterosexuals for being heterosexual. Persecuted groups tend to more closely identify with each other.

So you don't think that she was seeking positive reinforcement? Most people keep their private lives private and nurture not expose it.

No no I don't think so, as she's still in a relationship with the women, even if she's now in the military and overseas. When we lived in Argentina, which is a more friendly environment for gays, she was the same. I guess it's just who she is.

Anyhow, I hope I didn't anger anyone by continuing this topic.

 

[GuestFellow]

Bite me! No wait! Don't!;D

I need to find out if your halal first.

The vast majority of atheists that I have met, in fact I think every single one I have met, is also agnostic, meaning they both lack belief in God(s) and that they will tell you they don't claim to know (at least not for sure). Many theists are also agnostic, meaning that they do believe in God(s), but also admit they don't know. Other theists, like many of you here, do claim that they know. They are not agnostic.

I think most people have doubts, even those who are hardcore atheists or theists. I do think there is a contradiction. People claim they believe in God or lack belief in God, but then are not entirely sure about it and are open to new ideas.

I've also read studies about theists and atheists in their charitable giving. It is true that theists "give more to charity". But when you look deeper, you'll find that "charity" includes things like building churches, missionary work, etc. "Religion" is still an official head of charity in Canada (to my embarrasment). There also still exist a large number of charities explicitly religiously motivated, driven, and named which are not pushing religion and actually are about doing real charity. The Salvation Army is a good example. But you may be surprised how many atheists give and work for these charities even though they don't agree with the religion named (usually Christianity).

Do you believe religious organisations should be exempt from tax? What do other atheists think of this? Of course, I'm not expecting you to speak for all atheists but you must have some idea of what other atheists think about the issue I've raised.

e also: Homosexuality and psychology The likelihood of suicide attempts are increased in both gay males and lesbians, as well as bisexuals of both sexes when compared to their heterosexual counterparts.[SUP][20][/SUP][SUP][21][/SUP][SUP][22][/SUP] The trend of having a higher incident rate among females is no exception with lesbians or bisexual females and when compared with homosexual males, lesbians are more likely to attempt than gay or bisexual males.

Salaam,

That is because gay people are treated quite harshly, especially in countries like Jamaica. Even people who are not practicing homosexuality but are gay, are ridiculed by society.

I have a relative who is gay and it is not easy. It is very hard, especially when people make fun of him. I think it is most difficult for gay men, who act feminine unintentionally, since they are expected to act masculine, as if acting feminine is demeaning.

For Muslims, I blame Islamic scholars and their culture. With some exceptions like Hamza Yusuf, most scholars I have listened to, have no idea how to address homosexuality. The rhetoric they use is the reason why some homosexuals are beaten up. They are clueless when addressing this issue, though some scholars in UK are becoming good at addressing homosexuality in a polite and diplomatic manner.

 

[جوري]

Well I think it's because no one is hurting and hunting down heterosexuals for being heterosexual. Persecuted groups tend to more closely identify with each other.

It is unusual for a group that seeks to foster its existence out of fear of threat & persecution to be so openly flashing it in everyone's face. I can't identify with that as a good survival skill..

No no I don't think so, as she's still in a relationship with the women, even if she's now in the military and overseas. When we lived in Argentina, which is a more friendly environment for gays, she was the same. I guess it's just who she is.

Interesting ...

 

[SorayaCali]

It is unusual for a group that seeks to foster its existence out of fear of threat & persecution to be so openly flashing it in everyone's face. I can't identify with that as a good survival skill..

I guess the idea is they can either hide it and deny who they are, and live less than happy lives, or they can try to get people to accept it and go on with their lives. The latter has worked in Argentina and parts of the US, so I guess it's not a bad idea. I don't think gays should be bullied for something so miniscule.

Interesting ...

Not really, she's just a normal girl otherwise.

 

[Aprender]

I haven't seen any laws on the books yet purporting to forbid muslims from marrying those they love, or from adopting children, etc. It really depends where in western society we're talking about. Some places are tolerant of muslims and gays, some are tolerant of one and not the other, and some are bigotted against both.

I'd also point out that religion is far more a choice than sexual orientation is.

Actually given how much bigotry there is in the USA against muslims, I'd have thought they'd have sympathy for the homosexuals, blacks, atheists, and other groups who are also targets of such blind hatred.

According to your perceptions only.

There aren't laws on the books that forbid Muslims from marrying those that they love from adopting children at all. I know plenty of homosexuals who make fun of Muslims as well so let's not go there either. Everyone gets bullied. My point wasn't about that. It was about people who don't necessarily believe that homosexuality is OK are labelled as stupid bigots. I know people who don't ascribe to any religion who don't approve of it either and yet still get labelled a bigot. That's what I find annoying.

And you are kidding yourself if you think that homosexuality isn't more accepted that being a Muslim is in the West and especially here in the United States. I know many gay & lesbian people who I've work with that hold powerful and prominent jobs in society where I live alone. Lawyers, politicians, journalists, doctors, etc. So when I walk into a job interview with my hijab, despite the fact that I might be qualified for it, I might not get it because I am a Muslim and it would attract the "wrong kind of attitude around here." But I don't see gay people around here having that much of a problem at all. Sure, they might get harassed on a train ride if they're on it making out with their boo but most people don't know they're gay unless that advertise it. I don't see many gay people getting monitored by the FBI and followed and arrested unlawfully for things in this country either. But you're right, plenty of them are happy doing what they want to. And little video campaigns like this one, which by the way the man in the video doing it is gay too which speaks volumes alone! Goes to show you just how deep the problem runs. And this is an ad that wasn't even run across the nation.

They're on TV. They've got their own campaigns telling America's children that it's OK to be gay and your parents, family, religion are all wrong and oppressing you so move out of the house when you're older! And it's OK for you to follow your desires and do who and what you want because you were born that way so shout it out to the world from the rooftops! They have their own television shows with the glitz and the glamor and the singing and the fame telling America that they're here and if you don't like it change the channel. Whereas anytime you see a Muslim on TV, it's usually on the news for something negative. But yeah.

Back to the topic.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Do you believe religious organisations should be exempt from tax? What do other atheists think of this?

Personally, I think they should pay tax in the same way that any other group does. Many relgious groups are set up to be not for profit so that can answer a lot of the question. I do shake my head at churches here in Toronto getting away with occupying valuable real estate nad paying nothing in property tax while the rest of us pay tons. It is in a sense a forced subsidy.

That is because gay people are treated quite harshly

Bingo.

 

[جوري]

I guess the idea is they can either hide it and deny who they are, and live less than happy lives, or they can try to get people to accept it and go on with their lives. The latter has worked in Argentina and parts of the US, so I guess it's not a bad idea. I don't think gays should be bullied for something so miniscule.

Question really is why do they want validation of people? why can they simply not go on with their lives... try to reverse that situation to a heterosexual relation that is frowned upon by society, family etc. The parties involved are usually to have found and to love each other without seeking everyone's approval. At the end of the day one goes home to those they've chosen to be their partner for life not to family or society .. hence I don't get the complaints and comes across as forced and contrived rather than genuine to most people.

 

[Abz2000]

That is because gay people are treated quite harshly

i think they treat each other quite harshly, it must hurt quite a lot.

 

[SorayaCali]

Question really is why do they want validation of people? why can they simply not go on with their lives... try to reverse that situation to a heterosexual relation that is frowned upon by society, family etc.

Well I guess because they don't want to deny who they are to people who won't accept them. I mean replace homosexual and heterosexual in that statement with various religious/political/whatever affiliations and I think you'll see my point. Or reverse it, say you lived in a gay community that wanted you to become gay, and told you "why are you something that society frowns on? Can't you just go gay?" I think it's unfair people would be mistreated for something so miniscule.

. At the end of the day one goes home to those they've chosen to be their partner for life not to family or society ..

But some societies try to force them apart.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Question really is why do they want validation of people?

To start with, they want the same human rights that everybody else has and want to be regarded as equals. They don't have that very basic legal standing in many places. In many place they can't marry, can't adopt, don't have access to spousal rights or spousal insurance, etc.

Moreover, why should they have to hide who they are? Why should they be muzzled while others are free to spew hate against them?

Consider the analogy to Islam. Do you agree with the bans on hajib that have been popping up recently? Should you as musims be forced into the closet and to practice your religion only with each other and to hide it from the rest of us? I am a secular atheist and even I would not wish that on you. As the rightwing blowhards spew islamophobia hate speech at you should you be forced to remain silent? Again, even as a secular atheist, I'd side with you against them.

As for "gay pride", it is the backlash to "gay shame". These are people who society has spent centuries telling they should be ashamed of being who they are. They've had enough of that so they turn around and say "No, I will not be ashamed of being who I am. I will be proud" and that carries over, sometimes a bit too far in the other direction. Give it time though, and as homosexuality becomes more accepted by society at large, "gay pride" will start to diminish in the same way that "black pride" has in the USA (not that we've beaten racism).

It used to be that inter racial marriage was a big deal here. Now few care about it. Homosexual marriage will take the same course. I believe that the time will eventually come when we look back on history and wonder at how our ancestors could have been so intollerant and prejudiced against gays, the same way we now look back and wonder at how our ancestors could have been so intollerant and racist against "blacks".

 

[جوري]

Well I guess because they don't want to deny who they are to people who won't accept them. I mean replace homosexual and heterosexual in that statement with various religious/political/whatever affiliations and I think you'll see my point. Or reverse it, say you lived in a gay community that wanted you to become gay, and told you "why are you something that society frowns on? Can't you just go gay?" I think it's unfair people would be mistreated for something so miniscule.

There's is something inherently wrong with those who seek validation if they were truly convinced that what they're doing is good and moral and I absolutely refuse to equate religions with sexuality. So I no I don't see the point but I can empathize of you desiring to be protective of your sister. I don't know personally what I'd do if I were in your situation outside of being completely heartbroken.
They'd like to be left alone to practice their homosexuality yet always flashing it in everyone's face to be instigator so you can see why it is indeed a sort of passive/aggressive relationship.. in and of itself bringing gratification which they don't get out of simply being gay!

But some societies try to force them apart.

Yes it is seen as wrong and a transgression against God and the laws of nature.. hence if a person were really convinced of this lifestyle they'd keep it private like most heterosexuals do..

 

[GuestFellow]

As for "gay pride", it is the backlash to "gay shame". These are people who society has spent centuries telling they should be ashamed of being who they are. They've had enough of that so they turn around and say "No, I will not be ashamed of being who I am. I will be proud" and that carries over, sometimes a bit too far in the other direction. Give it time though, and as homosexuality becomes more accepted by society at large, "gay pride" will start to diminish in the same way that "black pride" has in the USA (not that we've beaten racism).

I personally don't prove of anyone flaunting their sexuality. I see it as a very personal issue. These parades tend to confirm prejudices against homosexual people.

 

[SorayaCali]

There's is something inherently wrong with those who seek validation if they were truly convinced that what they're doing is good and moral and I absolutely refuse to equate religions with sexuality. So I no I don't see the point but I can empathize of you desiring to be protective of your sister. I don't know personally what I'd do if I were in your situation outside of being completely heartbroken.

Wait a minute, what do you mean by "validation"? So acceptance is validation? So should we muslims just hide who we are and not want to be accepted? We shouldn't complain about any restrictive measures put on us then I guess, because that's seeking validation of a private affair here in the West. I mean leaving a religion is far easier than denying ones sexuality, so I guess we don't have an excuse? I think you know why your position is so problematic now.

Yes it is seen as wrong and a transgression against God and the laws of nature.. hence if a person were really convinced of this lifestyle they'd keep it private like most heterosexuals do..

So do heterosexuals have to keep their relationships private from their friends and family and fear reprisals from them and from the government?