Did Jesus die and rise from the dead?

[YusufNoor]

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu

Uncle Woodrow wrote:

I have no need to disprove the Bible. I finally came to the understanding that the Qur'an is the True word of Allah(swt) and the writings of any other book are of no concern. I firmly believe in the truth of the Qur'an and I am very much relaxed and pleased to know that when I leave this earth it will be as a Muslim.

we don't really need to, Christians do not worship the "Son of Man" described in parts of their own Scriptures!

re:

38Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."

39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

since "Christians" claim that Jesus/Isa(as) died on a Friday afternoon and was arisen before sunrise on Sunday, the person that they worship is OBVIOUSLY not the one discussed in their "current" text! :?

so either their Scripture missed the mark or their religion is missing the mark...
OR...BOTH!

the explanation can only be, oh so, enlightening!

 

[Keltoi]

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu

Uncle Woodrow wrote:



we don't really need to, Christians do not worship the "Son of Man" described in parts of their own Scriptures!

re:



since "Christians" claim that Jesus/Isa(as) died on a Friday afternoon and was arisen before sunrise on Sunday, the person that they worship is OBVIOUSLY not the one discussed in their "current" text! :?

so either their Scripture missed the mark or their religion is missing the mark...
OR...BOTH!

the explanation can only be, oh so, enlightening!

You agree with Woodrow that it isn't necessary to try and disprove the Bible, yet you then throw in the sweeping attack that Christians don't worship the Son of Man in our own Scriptures. Make up your mind.

As for what day Christ was crucified, the Bible doesn't state exactly what day it was. The most widely held views have the crucifixion taking place on Wednesday or Friday. Some, using a synthesis of Wednesday and Friday say Thursday. Since in Mark 15:42 the scripture says Christ was crucified the "day before the Sabbath", and that was the weekly Sabbath, which is Saturday, that would point to Friday. The passages also state that Christ would rise "on" the third day, so He wouldn't need to be in the grave for the full three days to rise on the third day.

 

[YusufNoor]

You agree with Woodrow that it isn't necessary to try and disprove the Bible, yet you then throw in the sweeping attack that Christians don't worship the Son of Man in our own Scriptures. Make up your mind.

As for what day Christ was crucified, the Bible doesn't state exactly what day it was. The most widely held views have the crucifixion taking place on Wednesday or Friday. Some, using a synthesis of Wednesday and Friday say Thursday. Since in Mark 15:42 the scripture says Christ was crucified the "day before the Sabbath", and that was the weekly Sabbath, which is Saturday, that would point to Friday. The passages also state that Christ would rise "on" the third day, so He wouldn't need to be in the grave for the full three days to rise on the third day.

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu

Salaam,

i say it's NOT necessary because Christians say stuff like:

He wouldn't need to be in the grave for the full three days to rise on the third day

when the passage i quoted, clearly states:

39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

so not only does it say three days and three nights, but it also says that it will be the ONLY sign!

as that is NOT the Jesus that you worship, i have 100% PROOF POSITIVE that your religion is FALSE! at least, according to YOUR Scriptures!

btw, that isn't a "sweeping attack", just pointing out the FACTS according to your Scriptures!

simple really!

unless you want to be like those Catholic priests who tell people that they don't need to read the Bible as they will read it for you and tell you what you need to know...:?

 

[Keltoi]

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu

Salaam,

i say it's NOT necessary because Christians say stuff like:



when the passage i quoted, clearly states:



so not only does it say three days and three nights, but it also says that it will be the ONLY sign!

as that is NOT the Jesus that you worship, i have 100% PROOF POSITIVE that your religion is FALSE! at least, according to YOUR Scriptures!

btw, that isn't a "sweeping attack", just pointing out the FACTS according to your Scriptures!

simple really!

unless you want to be like those Catholic priests who tell people that they don't need to read the Bible as they will read it for you and tell you what you need to know...:?

100% proof positive huh? Let's not get too excited.

By Jewish reckoning time was inclusive. Another example of this occurs in Kings.

1 Ki 12:5 And he said unto them, Depart yet *for three days*, then come again to me. And the people departed.

1 Ki 12:12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam *the third day*, as the king had appointed, saying, Come to me again *the third day*.

The king tells the people to depart for three days, but they return ON the third day, not on the fourth. Why? Because the king did not mean to be gone for a full 72 hours. The counting of days was inclusive in nature. The same day that the king told them to leave was the first day. The second day they stayed away, and then they returned the third day, as the king had intended. This is the exactly the same manner of counting used for the resurrection. It is inclusive in nature, with whatever portion of the first and last days being counted as full days.

Just for good measure, this same story is told in 2 Chronicles-

2 Chr 10:5 And he said unto them, Come again unto me *after three days*. And the people departed.

2 Chr 10:12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam *on the third day*, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me *on the third day*.

Note the way this is worded compared to 1 Kings. Come again unto me after three days, depart yet for three days, and Come again to me on the third day, these all mean exactly the same thing, which is NOT a full three days or a full 72 hours.

Jesus Christ rose ON the third day.

 

[back_to_faith]

100% proof positive huh? Let's not get too excited.

By Jewish reckoning time was inclusive. Another example of this occurs in Kings.

1 Ki 12:5 And he said unto them, Depart yet *for three days*, then come again to me. And the people departed.

1 Ki 12:12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam *the third day*, as the king had appointed, saying, Come to me again *the third day*.

The king tells the people to depart for three days, but they return ON the third day, not on the fourth. Why? Because the king did not mean to be gone for a full 72 hours. The counting of days was inclusive in nature. The same day that the king told them to leave was the first day. The second day they stayed away, and then they returned the third day, as the king had intended. This is the exactly the same manner of counting used for the resurrection. It is inclusive in nature, with whatever portion of the first and last days being counted as full days.

Just for good measure, this same story is told in 2 Chronicles-

2 Chr 10:5 And he said unto them, Come again unto me *after three days*. And the people departed.

2 Chr 10:12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam *on the third day*, as the king bade, saying, Come again to me *on the third day*.

Note the way this is worded compared to 1 Kings. Come again unto me after three days, depart yet for three days, and Come again to me on the third day, these all mean exactly the same thing, which is NOT a full three days or a full 72 hours.

Jesus Christ rose ON the third day.

The best way to understand the Jewish way of reckoning ,to hear it from their mouth:

excert from Jewsforjudaism


While it is true that according to Jewish law part of the day is equivalent to a full day, Matthew's Jesus promised to be buried specifically for three days and three nights. By the use of the phrase "three days and three nights," Matthew's Jesus indicated that he expected to be buried for three consecutive periods between dawn and dark (day) and dark and dawn (night), or approximately seventy- two hours. The Scriptures employ the phrase "three days" in a more general sense than that expressed by "three days and three nights." For example, "three days" does not necessarily include the period of day or night at either the beginning or end of the total time to be indicated. Therefore, when the phrase "three days" is meant to specifically include three days and three nights, and this is not evident from the text, it must be stated as such: ". . . neither eat nor drink three days, night or day . . ." (Esther 4:16). However, when the phrase "three days and three nights" is stated, it includes either all three days and all three nights or can be deficient in only parts of a day or night at the beginning or end of the entire period, but never of a full segment of day or night out of twenty-four hours (1 Samuel 30:11-13). Although Jesus did not have to be buried exactly seventy-two hours, he did have to be buried at least on parts of three days and three nights. Jesus died on a Friday at the ninth hour, which corresponds to about 3 P.M. The claim is made that Jesus rose three days later, on a Sunday. This would mean that he was buried during the daylight hours of three different days. If this was true, he was buried for only two nights.

The Gospel of John indicates that Jesus' promise to rise after being buried three days and three nights was never fulfilled. According to Matthew, the women came to the tomb "as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" (Matthew 28:1), Mark says "they came to the tomb when the sun had risen" (Mark 16:2), and Luke says it was "at early dawn that they came to the tomb" (Luke 24:1). But in John it clearly states that it was not yet dawn when the body of Jesus disappeared from the tomb: "On the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb" (John 20:1). Thus, John says that Jesus, having risen before the dawn of Sunday morning, was buried for only two days and two nights, i.e., one full day (Saturday), part of another (Friday), and two nights (Friday and Saturday nights). This contradicts the assertion that in fulfillment of prophecy, Jesus was buried three days and three nights. The New Testament evidence simply does not add up to three days, i.e., daylight hours, and three nights, as specifically promised by Jesus. Therefore, Jesus did not fulfill his very own prediction.


you better think well Keltoi ,before you post me a rebuttal ....don't be in a hurry in order not to be surprised of what I still have in my pocket......

peace

 

[don532]

The Bible nowhere says or implies that Jesus was crucified and died on Good Friday! It is said that Jesus was crucified on

"the day before the Sabbath", Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14, 31, 42.

As the Jewish weekly Sabbath came on Saturday, scholars have assumed Jesus was crucified on Good Friday. This is poor reasoning because the Bible bears abundant testimony that the Jews had other Sabbaths beside the weekly Sabbath which fell on Saturday.

The first day of the Passover week, no matter on what day of the week it came, was always an annual Sabbath.

"And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein" Leviticus 23:6, 7.

On the seventh day of this feast, the 21st of Nisan, was another annual Sabbath:

" . . . in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein" Leviticus 23:8.

The day of Pentecost was an annual Sabbath Numbers 28:26. This is the reason we read about Sabbaths in the plural number in the Old Testament Leviticus 26:2, 34, 35, 43.

The Bible makes it plain, Jesus was crucified and buried on:

" . . . the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath" Mark 15:42.

John tells us:

"And it was the preparation of the Passover" John 19:14.

It was the preparation day on which the Passover Supper was made ready [editor's note: actually it was the preparation for the Holy Day, the Night to Be Much Remembered], the 14th of Nisan John 13:1, 29; 18:28. It was the preparation to keep the Passover Sabbath--the annual Sabbath which always came on the 15th day of the first ecclesiastical month. John 19:31 adds:

" . . . (for that sabbath day was an high day) . . . ."

Its greatness was due to the fact that it was the annual Sabbath of the Passover Festival.

Two Sabbaths that Week

Matthew makes it plain that two Sabbaths had passed since Jesus was crucified. The KJV has this rendering:

"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre" Matthew 28:1.

On this verse nearly all translators have allowed tradition to control their translation. It is not "Sabbath" but "Sabbaths" in the Greek text (the genitive case and the plural number). The verse properly translated would read:

"In the end of the sabbaths . . . ."

This allows for an annual Sabbath on Thursday and a regular Sabbath on Saturday.

When Jesus was buried near sundown on the day of the Passover,

"Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary"

watched the burial Matthew 27:58-61. Immediately after the burial, Luke says:

"And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on" Luke 3:54.

This Sabbath was an annual Sabbath on Thursday. The day after the annual Sabbath the women bought spices, Mark 16:1. Luke tells us that the women, after preparing the spices on Friday,

" . . . rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" Luke 23:56.

The traditional interpretation makes Mark and Luke contradict each other. In Mark 16:1 we are informed that the Sabbath was past when the spices were purchased. "Had" is inserted without any authority from the Greek text.

"No reason can be given for the variation--bought sweet spices. Not had bought" (An American Commentary on the New Testament, Vol. 11, p. 251).

In Luke 23:56 we are told that the women prepared the spices and ointments, and rested the Sabbath day. If Jesus lay in the grave on Sabbath only, Mark and Luke contradict each other. But if He lay there two Sabbaths having a work day between them, then Mark and Luke harmonize to perfection.

The Resurrection Late Saturday Evening

When does the Bible say that Jesus rose from the dead? The two Mary's came to the tomb:

"in the end of the sabbath" Matthew 28:1.

The Sabbath always ended at sunset:

"From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath" Leviticus 23:32.

Then they went to the tomb before sunset on Saturday. Jesus had risen from the dead before their arrival Matthew 28:1-8. According to the Bible, Jesus Christ arose before sunset on Saturday. Christ did not rise on Sunday morning, for the two Mary saw Him, heard Him speak, and held His feet just as the Sabbath ended and the first day of the week began.

"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week . . ." (Matthew 28:1).

Mark 16:9 tells us Jesus first appeared to Mary Magdalene early the first day of the week, which was Saturday after sundown. The nearer after sunset this happened, the earlier in the first of the week it was. Mark does not say that she was alone at the time she first saw Jesus, and Matthew tells us that:

"the other Mary was with her" (Matthew 28:1).

The Date of the Crucifixion

Having shown from Matthew 28:1 that Jesus rose from the grave as the Sabbath ended at sunset and the first day of the week began, this would put the crucifixion on Wednesday at sunset just as the preparation day ended and the annual Sabbath commenced. According to the Gospel writers, Jesus died at the ninth hour (3:00 p.m. our time) and was buried about sunset that same day, Luke 23:44, 45, 50-54; Mark 15:33-38, 42-47.

If Jesus were buried at sunset on Wednesday and arose at sunset on Saturday, He fulfilled the sign of Jonah. He would have been in the grave Wednesday night, Thursday night, and Friday night--a full "three days". All together a full "three days and three nights." Thus we have a literal fulfillment of the words of Christ in Matthew 12:40. hence there is no need to follow Roman Catholic tradition which makes Jesus Christ a liar. Truly,

". . . He rose again the third day according to the scriptures" I Corinthians 15:4,

not the second day according to Roman Catholic tradition!

The Third Day

Some Scriptures speak of His resurrection

"after three days" (Mark 8:31; 9:31 R. V.; 10:34 R. V.; Matthew 27:63).

Other verses say

"three days" (Matthew 26:60, 61; 27:39, 40; Mark 14:58; 15:29, 30; John 2:19, 20).

Still others speak of

"the third day" (Matthew 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:64; Luke 9:22; 18;33; 24:6, 7, 21, 46; Acts 10:40; I Corinthians 16:4).

Some make much over "the third day" in Luke 24:21, and they affirm that if the crucifixion took place on Wednesday, Sunday would be the fourth day since these things were done. But the answer is simple. These things were done just as Thursday was beginning at sunset on Wednesday. They were therefore completed on Thursday, and the first day since Thursday would be Friday, the second day since Thursday would be Saturday, and "the third day since" Thursday would be Sunday, the first day of the week.

So the supposed objection in reality supports the Wednesday crucifixion. But if the crucifixion took place on Friday, by no manner of reckoning could Sunday be made "the third day since" these things were done.

Unless we believe the Bible contains errors, we know that all passages must harmonize. Therefore, "after three days" must mean the same as "the third day" Matthew 16:21.

There is nothing in the Bible to favor the Good Friday crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The biblical record harmonizes with a Wednesday crucifixion and Saturday evening resurrection--a full 72 hours. This view allows for a literal interpretation of "three days and three nights." It allows for the word "after three days" to mean just that. It proves that Jesus Christ fulfilled the sign of Jonah and thus proved His Messiahship to the Jews.

Written By: Milburn Cockrell

 

[don532]

'The Son of Man Will Be Three Days and Three Nights in the Heart of the Earth'
Jesus Christ plainly said He would be entombed for three days and three nights. Can this be reconciled with a "Good Friday" crucifixion and burial and an "Easter Sunday" resurrection, which allows for barely a day and a half in the tomb? Or do the Gospels spell out a surprising, simpler solution that fits perfectly with what Jesus foretold?
by Scott Ashley

In Matthew 12:38, some of the scribes and Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign to prove He was the Messiah. "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you," they told Him (New International Version).

But Jesus responded that the only sign He would give was that of the prophet Jonah: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (verse 40).

Traditional view doesn't fit

But how can we fit "three days and three nights" between a Friday afternoon crucifixion and entombment just before sundown and a Sunday morning resurrection at sunrise? This traditional view allows for Jesus to have been in the tomb for only a day and a half.

Some believe that Christ's statement that He would be "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" does not require a literal span of 72 hours. They reason that any part of a day can be reckoned as a whole day.

Thus, since Jesus died in the afternoon and was entombed just before sunset, they think the closing few minutes of that Friday constituted the first day, Friday night was the first night, Saturday was the second day, Saturday night was the second night, and a few minutes at dawn on Sunday morning made up the third day.

But where, then, is the third night? Even if a few minutes of daylight late on Friday and another few on Sunday morning constitute "days," this interpretation fails to explain how only two nights—Friday night and Saturday night—can somehow be the three nights of which Jesus spoke.

In fact, Scripture is plain that Jesus had already risen before Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early Sunday morning, arriving "while it was still dark" (John 20:1-2). So in reality, no parts of Sunday could be counted as a day, as Jesus was already resurrected well before the break of dawn.

Jonah 1:17, to which Jesus referred, states specifically that "Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights." We have no biblical basis for thinking that Jesus meant only two nights and one day, plus part of another day. If Jesus were in the tomb only from late Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning, then the sign He gave that He was the prophesied Messiah was not fulfilled.

So which is it? Is something wrong with Christ's words, or is something wrong with the traditional view of when and how long He was in the tomb?

Let's carefully examine the details from the Gospels. When we do, we uncover the real story of how Jesus' words were fulfilled precisely.

Two Sabbaths mentioned

Notice the sequence of events outlined in Luke 23. Jesus' moment of death, as well as His hasty burial because of the oncoming Sabbath that began at sundown, is narrated in verses 46-53. Verse 54 then states, "That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near."

In Jewish society of that time, heavy cooking and housecleaning were done on the day before a Sabbath in preparation for it. Thus the day before the Sabbath came to be called "the preparation day" or simply "the preparation." The biblical Sabbath falls on Saturday, the seventh day of the week. According to Bible reckoning, days begin at sunset (Leviticus 23:32; compare Genesis 1:5, 8, 13), so all weekly Sabbaths start Friday evening at sundown.

Based on these facts, many people have assumed that it is the weekly Sabbath mentioned here, and that Jesus was therefore crucified on a Friday. But two types of "Sabbaths" are mentioned in the Scriptures—the regular weekly Sabbath day, which fell on the seventh day of the week, and seven annual Holy Days (listed in Leviticus 23), Sabbaths that could—and usually did—fall on days of the week other than the regular weekly Sabbath day.

Was the day after Jesus was crucified a weekly Sabbath, or one of these annual Holy Days?

John 19:31 clearly states that this approaching Sabbath "was a high day." This term does not refer to the weekly Sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), but in this context to the first day of Unleavened Bread, one of God's annual Holy Days (Exodus 12:16-17; Leviticus 23:6-7). A number of Bible commentaries, encyclopedias and dictionaries will confirm that John is not referring to the weekly Sabbath here, but rather to one of the annual Sabbaths.

According to the biblical calendar, in that year this high-day Sabbath fell on a Thursday (meaning it began on Wednesday night at sunset). We can confirm this by looking at the details in the Gospel accounts—which show us that two separate Sabbath days are mentioned.

Luke 23:55-56 tells us that the women, after seeing Christ's body being laid in the tomb just before sundown, "returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils" for the final preparation of the body.

They would not have done such work on a Sabbath day, weekly or annual, since it would have been considered a Sabbath violation. This is verified by Mark's account, which states: "Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices [which they could not have purchased on a Sabbath day], that they might come and anoint Him" (Mark 16:1).

The women had to wait until this Sabbath was over before they could buy and prepare the spices to be used for anointing Jesus' body. Then, Luke 23:56 tells us that, after purchasing and preparing the spices and oils on Friday, "they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment"—which means they had to have acquired the spices before that Sabbath on which they rested. This second Sabbath mentioned in the Gospel accounts is the regular weekly Sabbath, observed from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

By comparing details in both Gospels —where Mark tells us the women bought spices after the Sabbath and Luke relates that they prepared the spices before resting on the Sabbath—we can clearly see that two different Sabbaths are being discussed here.

The first, as John 19:31 tells us, was a "high day"—the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread—which, in A.D. 31, fell on a Thursday. The second was the weekly seventh-day Sabbath. (To see these events spelled out day by day, see the chart.)

Sign of the Messiah

After the women rested on the regular weekly Sabbath, they went to Jesus' tomb early on the first day of the week (Sunday), "while it was still dark" (John 20:1), and found that He had already been resurrected (Matthew 28:1-6; Mark 16:2-6; Luke 24:1-3). Jesus was not resurrected at sunrise on Sunday morning. When Mary Magdalene arrived "while it was still dark" she found the stone rolled away and the tomb already empty!

When we consider the details in all four Gospel accounts, the picture is clear. Jesus was crucified and entombed late on Wednesday afternoon, just before a Sabbath began at sunset. However, that was a high-day Sabbath, lasting from Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset that week, rather than the regular weekly Sabbath that lasted from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

Since Jesus was entombed in the late afternoon just before sundown, according to His own words He would have been resurrected at around the same time three days and nights later. He remained in the tomb from Wednesday at sunset until Saturday at sunset, when He rose from the dead. While no one witnessed His resurrection (which took place inside a sealed tomb), to fit His words and the biblical evidence it had to have happened three days and three nights later, near sunset on Saturday.

This time line perfectly accommodates three full nights (Wednesday night, Thursday night and Friday night) and three full daylight periods (Thursday, Friday and Saturday). This is the only time that fits Jesus' own prophecy of how long He would be in the tomb. And, as we have seen, it fits perfectly with all the details recorded in the Gospels.

We can be assured that the entombment period Jesus gave as proof He was the Messiah was exactly the duration He foretold. Because most people do not understand the biblical Holy Days Jesus Christ and His followers kept, they fail to understand the chronological details so accurately preserved for us in the Gospels. GN

 

[YusufNoor]

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Assalamu alaykum wa'rahma-tullahi, wa'barakatahu

Greetings of Peace Don,

THAT IS the most plausable interpretation of the story, BUT no-one accepts THAT as proof that Jesus was the Messiah! they prefer a "son of God" thesis and it would also destroy the excuse for moving the Sabbath to Sunday, hence even "Christians" don't believe it!

looks like all evidence of the sunnah of Jesus/Isa(as) has been expunged from human memory. we could also mention that Peter NEVER ate the "unclean" food in his dream...

just like "Thou shalt have no other gods beside me" has been replaced.

looks like the Catholic Church went to a great deal of trouble to completely eradicate the Gospel "According to" Jesus/Isa(as) and replace it with others...

THIS is WHY another Messenger was required! one who's Message AND Sunnah HAS been preserved! (AND PERFECTED!) Allahu Akbar!

 

[don532]

Greetings of Peace, YusufNoor. I agree the pieces I posted on the three days question do not address all the issues you have noted.

As to the question of Christians worshiping on Sunday as opposed to Saturday, it is true there is not 100% universal agreement on the subject even among Christians. A small percentage of Christians still meet on Saturday.

Here is an article from carm.org which pretty well explains why most Christians worship on Sunday.

In the Old Testament, God stated, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you" (Exodus 20:8-10, NASB). It was the custom of the Jews to come together on the Sabbath, which is Saturday, cease work, and worship God. Jesus went to the synagogue on Saturday to teach (Matt. 12:9; John 18:20) as did the apostle Paul (Acts 17:2; 18:4). So, if in the Old Testament we are commanded to keep the Sabbath and in the New Testament we see Jews, Jesus, and the apostles doing the same thing, then why do we worship on Sunday?
First of all, of the 10 commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17, only 9 of them were restated in the New Testament. (Six in Matt. 19:18, murder, adultery, stealing, false witness, honor parents, and worshiping God; Rom. 13:9, coveting. Worshiping God properly covers the first three commandments) The one that was not reaffirmed was the one about the Sabbath. Instead, Jesus said that He is the Lord of the Sabbath (Matt. 12:8).
In creation, God rested on the seventh day. But, since God is all powerful, He doesn’t get tired. He doesn’t need to take a break and rest. So, why did does it say that He rested? The reason is simple: Mark 2:27 says, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." In other words, God established the Sabbath as a rest for His people, not because He needed a break, but because we are mortal and need a time of rest, of focus on God. In this, our spirits and bodies are both renewed.
The OT system of Law required keeping the Sabbath as part of the overall moral, legal, and sacrificial system by which the Jewish people satisfied God’s requirements for behavior, government, and forgiveness of sins. The Sabbath was part of the Law in that sense. In order to "remain" in favor with God, you had to also keep the Sabbath. If it was not kept, then the person was in sin and would often be punished (Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 6:23; Deut. 13:1-9; Num. 35:31; Lev. 20:2, etc.).
But with Jesus’ atonement, we no longer are required to keep the Law as a means for our justification. The requirements of the Law were fulfilled in Christ. We now have rest from the Law. We now have "Sabbath", continually.

Are we free to worship on Sunday?

Within the New Testament is ample evidence that the seventh day Sabbath is no longer a requirement.

* Rom. 14:5-6: "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."

The entire section of Rom. 14:1-12 is worth careful study. The instructions here are that individuals must be convinced in their own minds about which day they observe for the Lord. If the seventh day Sabbath were a requirement, then the choice would not be mans’, but God’s. To me, this verse is sufficient to answer the question beyond doubt. Furthermore,

* Col. 2:16-17: "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Notice the time sequence mentioned in Col. 2:16-17 above. A festival is yearly. A new moon is monthly. A Sabbath is weekly. No one is to judge in regard to this. The Sabbath is defined as a shadow, the reality is Jesus. Jesus is our Sabbath. So, if someone is judging you because you worship on the Sabbath, they are wrong. Likewise, if you regard Sunday above Saturday (Rom. 14:5-6), all you need to do is be convinced in your own mind that that is alright.

Is there any evidence in the NT that Christians met on Sunday?

* Acts 20:7: "And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight."

The first day of the week is Sunday and this is the day the people gathered. This passage can easily be seen as the church meeting on Sunday, though it does not necessitate it. It has two important church functions within it: breaking bread (communion) and a message (preaching/teaching). Additionally, Luke included the Roman system as well as the Jewish system of counting days. The Jewish system was sundown to sundown. But Luke also used the Roman system: midnight to midnight (Luke 11:5; Acts 16:25; 20:7; 27:27). This is a subtle point that shows the Jewish Sabbath system was not exclusively used by Luke. If the Sabbath was mandatory, why the use of the non-Jewish system?

* 1 Cor. 16:1-2: "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come."

Notice here that Paul is directing the churches to meet on the first day of each week and put money aside. It would seem that this is tithing. So, the instructed time for the church to meet is Sunday, the first day of the week and it is that day the Galatians were to set money aside collections. Is this an official worship day set up by the church? You decide. Does this verse apply to Christians today? It most certainly does.

* Revelation 1:10-11, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

The New Bible Dictionary says regarding the term, ‘The Lord’s Day’ in Rev. 1:10: "This is the first extant occurrence in Christian literature of "te kuriake hemera." The adjectival construction suggests that it was a formal designation of the church’s worship day. As such it certainly appears early in the 2nd century" (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, 1. 67).
In many churches today, the term "The Lord’s Day" is used to designate Sunday, the same as it was in the second century.
I hope this is evidence enough to show you that the Bible does not require that we worship on Saturday. If anything, we have the freedom (Rom. 14:1-12) to worship on the day that we believe we should. And, no one should judge us in regard to the day we keep. We are free in Christ and not under law, (Rom. 6:14).

Conclusion

The Seventh Day Adventists have every right to worship on the Sabbath and they should if they are convinced that is the right thing to do. However, if any member of any church were to require a person to worship on the Sabbath as a sign of "true" Christianity or "true" redemption, then that is wrong. According to Rom. 14:1-12, we are free.
Additionally, Sunday is the day that the Lord Jesus rose from the dead. The Jewish people who had rejected Jesus continued to worship on Saturday, the Sabbath. But it was the Christians who celebrated Jesus' resurrection and this was most probably the driving force to gather on the first day of the week.

 

[NoName55]

edit

 

[back_to_faith]

'The Son of Man Will Be Three Days and Three Nights in the Heart of the Earth'


two types of "Sabbaths" are mentioned in the Scriptures—the regular weekly Sabbath day, which fell on the seventh day of the week, and seven annual Holy Days (listed in Leviticus 23), Sabbaths that could—and usually did—fall on days of the week other than the regular weekly Sabbath day.

Was the day after Jesus was crucified a weekly Sabbath, or one of these annual Holy Days?

John 19:31 clearly states that this approaching Sabbath "was a high day." This term does not refer to the weekly Sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), but in this context to the first day of Unleavened Bread, one of God's annual Holy Days (Exodus 12:16-17; Leviticus 23:6-7).

According to the biblical calendar, in that year this high-day Sabbath fell on a Thursday (meaning it began on Wednesday night at sunset). We can confirm this by looking at the details in the Gospel accounts—which show us that two separate Sabbath days are mentioned.

Luke 23:55-56 tells us that the women, after seeing Christ's body being laid in the tomb just before sundown, "returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils" for the final preparation of the body.


By comparing details in both Gospels —where Mark tells us the women bought spices after the Sabbath and Luke relates that they prepared the spices before resting on the Sabbath—we can clearly see that two different Sabbaths are being discussed here.

The first, as John 19:31 tells us, was a "high day"—the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread—which, in A.D. 31, fell on a Thursday. The second was the weekly seventh-day Sabbath. (To see these events spelled out day by day, see the chart.)

. GN

The (2 sabbaths dodge) appeared as a hopeless try to solve the (3 days and 3 nights gospel flaw), If one examine such theory with objective mind,will find out that it is totally based on zero evidence:


1-In all the pages of biblical history, the preparation day has been Friday. Please read Mark 15:42, 43, "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, Joseph of Arimathaea ... went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus."


2-He died on the preparation day, or the day before the weekly Sabbath. The next day is designated as "the sabbath according to the commandment." Since the commandment says, "The seventh day is the sabbath," we know that this had to be the day we call Saturday. Furthermore, after describing the events of the preparation day in verse 55 and the Sabbath day in verse 56, the very next verse says, "Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared." Luke 24:1.

3-It is true that the first day of unleavened bread was special to the Jew, but we deny that John’s phrase "that Sabbath was a high day" could possibly refer to the first day of unleavened bread.

A- No where in the Bible are the annual Jewish feast days like Passover or the days of unleavened bread called "HIGH SABBATHS" or "high days"! So the Bible itself, by its silence, refutes this concept completely. Every Jew would know that this was a High day,Every first day of unleavened bread was always a SPECIAL day,John tells us "that Sabbath was a high day", not "that day was a high Sabbath, it is obvious that John said a "that Sabbath was high" by the fact that it fell within Passover week.

B- The day of atonement is designated a compound expression "shabbath shabbathon", which means "a sabbath of solemn rest" (Lev 23:32; 16:31). But the Septuagint translates this phrase by the compound Greek expression "sabbata sabbaton," not the simple "sabbaton" used in the gospels. This proves that annual feast days like Passover are never designated simply as "sabbaton."



C- It was a special Sabbath, the one that fell within the feast of unleavened bread. More importantly, the Sabbath within "Passover week" was the one they used determine the Wave/ sheaf/ First fruits offering on the day after the Sabbath- always Sunday (Leviticus 23:11); AND to start counting down for the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) Leviticus 23:15. Pentecost always fell on a Sunday. Even if the Sabbath of Lev 23:11&15 are not the weekly Sabbath, but a reference to the first day of unleavened bread, being the Sabbath, the Wave/sheaf offering AND Pentecost still fell on Sunday in 33 AD, the year Jesus was crucified!!!


4- The Jewish feast days were to be "Sabbaths", (The day of atonement: Lev 16:31; 23:32 "It is to be a sabbath of complete rest to you, and you shall humble your souls; on the ninth of the month at evening, from evening until evening you shall keep your sabbath." Sabbath year: Lev 25:4; 2 Chron 36:21 but during the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the Lord; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard.) However, outside of the books of Moses, these feast days are never called "sabbaths" (with the exception of the year long land Sabbath which was not a festival: 2 Chron 36:21) Instead, they are referred to as "annual feasts, appointed feasts, appointed times, assemblies, solemn assembly, festal assemblies, Festival, fixed festivals, keeping years". When the Jews used the word Sabbath, it always referred to the weekly Sabbath.


5- another problem for the Wednesday crucifixion. The preceding scenario places the Last Supper and crucifixion before the Passover meal on Nisan 14. However, the Wednesday crucifixion could only occur astronomically on Nisan 15 after the Passover meal. For the Wednesday crucifixion to fall on Nisan 14 one must posit an intervening Ve-Adar and start the month late according to the Babylonian calendar, The Wednesday crucifixion is again a difficult choice.


6- The final nail in the coffin (mind the pun) of the Wednesday crucifixion ,is that The Bible offers incontestable proof that no one would have attempted such an anointing under those circumstances. When Lazarus had been dead four days, Jesus ordered the stone removed from his tomb. Martha, the sister of Lazarus, protested in these words, "Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days." John 11:39.
These words of Martha reveal the fact that no woman of that day would have considered it possible to prepare a body for burial four days after death. To Martha it seemed an irrational act even to open the tomb of Lazarus. To the other women who prepared the spices it would have been equally unreasonable to enter Christ's sepulchre four days after He had been crucified.Since there was an intervening day when His body could have been anointed, the women would not have waited until the fourth day to anoint the body of Jesus with spices, They would have gone on the intervening Friday, the supposed day between the Sabbaths. This seems to eliminate the possibility of a Wednesday crucifixion.


That's why Christians celebrate Good Friday, not Good Wednesday, and that is why I found no difficulty to find such refutations from the mouths of infamous christian scholars such as Steve Rudd,and even church fathers ...such as
But Sunday is the day on which we hold our common assembly, because it is the first day of the week and Jesus our saviour on the same day rose from the dead. (First apology of Justin, Ch 68)

(Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days of the week. (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, chp 9) , (15:8f, The Epistle of Barnabas, 100 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 147)


The eight day, that is, the first day after the Sabbath, and the Lord's Day." (Epistle 58, Sec 4)

[The Ebionites] were accustomed to observe the Sabbath and other Jewish customs but on the Lord's days to celebrate the same practices as we in remembrance of the resurrection of the Savior. (Church History Ill.xxvii.5)

 

[don532]

Oh I agree there are multiple schools of thought about the question at hand regarding the day of the crucifixion. In addition to the traditional Friday, there's also proponents of a Thursday crucifixion.

But with all these (Wednesday, Thursday, Friday), there's still the uncertainty of how the calendar was manipulated in the timeframe in question, whether Thursday was even on the calendar, and how one counts the days Jesus was in the tomb.

From loriswebs.com - Scott Lee's Calendars: "It is not clear when the current rule based calendar replaced the observation based calendar. According to the book 'Jewish Calendar Mystery Dispelled' by George Zinberg, the Patriarch Hillel II published the rules in 358 A.D. But, according to the Encyclopedia Judaica, Hillel II may have only published the 19 year rule for determining the occurrence of leap years." When asked if these calendar programs previous to 358 A.D are probably just good guesses, Lee responded, "Yes. And it is likely just an estimate for several years after 358 too." I then asked Lee if there is no proof, when this method was started, then why is the calendar being manipulated during those early years? Lee responded, "I am just extrapolating the current formula back in time. This provides an estimate of what the dates were, but is likely off a bit from time to time. Even as much as a month off if they placed a leap month in a different place."

 

[Keltoi]

The best way to understand the Jewish way of reckoning ,to hear it from their mouth:

excert from Jewsforjudaism


While it is true that according to Jewish law part of the day is equivalent to a full day, Matthew's Jesus promised to be buried specifically for three days and three nights. By the use of the phrase "three days and three nights," Matthew's Jesus indicated that he expected to be buried for three consecutive periods between dawn and dark (day) and dark and dawn (night), or approximately seventy- two hours. The Scriptures employ the phrase "three days" in a more general sense than that expressed by "three days and three nights." For example, "three days" does not necessarily include the period of day or night at either the beginning or end of the total time to be indicated. Therefore, when the phrase "three days" is meant to specifically include three days and three nights, and this is not evident from the text, it must be stated as such: ". . . neither eat nor drink three days, night or day . . ." (Esther 4:16). However, when the phrase "three days and three nights" is stated, it includes either all three days and all three nights or can be deficient in only parts of a day or night at the beginning or end of the entire period, but never of a full segment of day or night out of twenty-four hours (1 Samuel 30:11-13). Although Jesus did not have to be buried exactly seventy-two hours, he did have to be buried at least on parts of three days and three nights. Jesus died on a Friday at the ninth hour, which corresponds to about 3 P.M. The claim is made that Jesus rose three days later, on a Sunday. This would mean that he was buried during the daylight hours of three different days. If this was true, he was buried for only two nights.

The Gospel of John indicates that Jesus' promise to rise after being buried three days and three nights was never fulfilled. According to Matthew, the women came to the tomb "as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week" (Matthew 28:1), Mark says "they came to the tomb when the sun had risen" (Mark 16:2), and Luke says it was "at early dawn that they came to the tomb" (Luke 24:1). But in John it clearly states that it was not yet dawn when the body of Jesus disappeared from the tomb: "On the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb" (John 20:1). Thus, John says that Jesus, having risen before the dawn of Sunday morning, was buried for only two days and two nights, i.e., one full day (Saturday), part of another (Friday), and two nights (Friday and Saturday nights). This contradicts the assertion that in fulfillment of prophecy, Jesus was buried three days and three nights. The New Testament evidence simply does not add up to three days, i.e., daylight hours, and three nights, as specifically promised by Jesus. Therefore, Jesus did not fulfill his very own prediction.


you better think well Keltoi ,before you post me a rebuttal ....don't be in a hurry in order not to be surprised of what I still have in my pocket......

peace

The "Jewish Encyclopedia," Vol.4, pg.474, confirms this method of reckoning time. It reads, "A short time in the morning of the seventh day counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though, of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day."

Think of it this way. If we took the '3 days and 3 nights' literally, we could only assume it was a literal 72 hours. To say it was longer - even one second longer - would mean that you would have to say something like 'longer than 3 days and 3 nights' and if was shorter, then you would have to say something like 'less than 3 days and 3 nights.' I realize this argument seems to be pulling hairs, even being picky, but either you read it literally, or you read it figuratively. Think of being up in the morning - when does the night end and day start (without a watch)? I guess I'm saying even the phrase '3 days and 3 nights' in normal day interpretation has to be to a degree-interpreted figuratively already.

 

[Redeemed]

Greetings of Peace, YusufNoor. I agree the pieces I posted on the three days question do not address all the issues you have noted.

As to the question of Christians worshiping on Sunday as opposed to Saturday, it is true there is not 100% universal agreement on the subject even among Christians. A small percentage of Christians still meet on Saturday.

Here is an article from carm.org which pretty well explains why most Christians worship on Sunday.

That is right. Jesus said, that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. It is true that we have freedom in this area because Christ is our rest. He said, "My yoke is easy and His burdent is light." He said, "you believe in God believe also in me." In His Father's house are many mansions he said He goes to prepare a place for us. I follow Jesus because I have never heard a message of love that is so powerful. He said, a man cannot have more love than to lay down his life for a friend. If I follow Christ who is honored even by the Muslims in there way, I find rest for my soul. Jesus just taught love. I can exhaust my life studying about his love message, but if surpasses my understanding. If Jesus is honored as a prophet of God and indeed He is, I shouldn't be going wrong if I obey His teachings exclusively.

 

[Redeemed]

Don, I know you know these things but it doesn't hurt to be reminded.

 

[back_to_faith]

Oh I agree there are multiple schools of thought about the question at hand regarding the day of the crucifixion. In addition to the traditional Friday, there's also proponents of a Thursday crucifixion.

But with all these (Wednesday, Thursday, Friday), there's still the uncertainty of how the calendar was manipulated in the timeframe in question, whether Thursday was even on the calendar, and how one counts the days Jesus was in the tomb.

From loriswebs.com - Scott Lee's Calendars: "It is not clear when the current rule based calendar replaced the observation based calendar. According to the book 'Jewish Calendar Mystery Dispelled' by George Zinberg, the Patriarch Hillel II published the rules in 358 A.D. But, according to the Encyclopedia Judaica, Hillel II may have only published the 19 year rule for determining the occurrence of leap years." When asked if these calendar programs previous to 358 A.D are probably just good guesses, Lee responded, "Yes. And it is likely just an estimate for several years after 358 too." I then asked Lee if there is no proof, when this method was started, then why is the calendar being manipulated during those early years? Lee responded, "I am just extrapolating the current formula back in time. This provides an estimate of what the dates were, but is likely off a bit from time to time. Even as much as a month off if they placed a leap month in a different place."

Oh I agree there are multiple schools of thought about the question at hand regarding the day of the crucifixion.
schools !!!! as a matter of, fact I proved in my last post that the claim that the crucifiction (according to gospel writers) anything but the good Friday,would be absured concept based on zero Biblical,historical evidence,that only appeared in a hopeless try to clear up (the 3 days,3 nights)problem .....
you could do better If you prove your point with Biblical,historical support,instead of talking a general talk with zero Biblical evidence,which holds no merit in serious, objective Biblical study.....

in other words to

1-provide chapter and verse for those who assert that there were two sabbaths that week,other than "that Sabbath was a high day"which I have refuted before?
2-How to explain that the women would have waited until the fourth day to anoint the body of Jesus with spices,IF When Lazarus had been dead four days, Jesus ordered the stone removed from his tomb. Martha, the sister of Lazarus, protested in these words, "Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days." John 11:39.
These words of Martha reveal the fact that no woman of that day would have considered it possible to prepare a body for burial four days after death.

in sum and substance ,the (2 sabbaths theory) is as absured as:

the (2 visits of the women to the tomb of Jesusafter his resurrection)
,the (2 Elijah one spritual,john the baptist and another physical),
(the 2 comings of the messiah once to be crucified another to rule)

etc.......and so on ......the church deception is never-ending,and the tricks of interpretation to claer up the Gospel falshoods will continue till day of judgment.
pity on those christians who fail to recognize the subtle indoctrination by which they have been victimized.

 

[Woodrow]

That is right. Jesus said, that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. It is true that we have freedom in this area because Christ is our rest. He said, "My yoke is easy and His burdent is light." He said, "you believe in God believe also in me." In His Father's house are many mansions he said He goes to prepare a place for us. I follow Jesus because I have never heard a message of love that is so powerful. He said, a man cannot have more love than to lay down his life for a friend. If I follow Christ who is honored even by the Muslims in there way, I find rest for my soul. Jesus just taught love. I can exhaust my life studying about his love message, but if surpasses my understanding. If Jesus is honored as a prophet of God and indeed He is, I shouldn't be going wrong if I obey His teachings exclusively.

If Jesus is honored as a prophet of God and indeed He is, I shouldn't be going wrong if I obey His teachings exclusively.

That is true. The question is do his teachings still exist?

I know that the Qur'an is the exact Message as repeated by Muhammad(PBUH) There were numerous witnesses who copied his every word. We know that not one word has changed in the Qur'an in over 1400 years.

These writings were personally approved by Muhammad(PBUH) as being the exact words he said.

There is no doubt that, Those Arabic words were the words spoken to Muhammad(PBUH) and the very same words that are still read and spoken to this day.

This is verified by exact copies of the original, having been spread and copied in an unbroken chain.

In addition we have the Sunnah, which are eyewitnesses accounts written by the companions of Muhammad(PBUH).

Then we have the Ahadith, which are the words and teachings of Muhammad(PBUH) as witnessed. The Ahadith that are verified first person witness reports are all in agreement with each other. These are further supported by lesser Ahadith, which were not directly witnessed event, but as remembered by people who heard them from witnesses. Those are acknowledged to be hear say, yet they support the claim that the Witnesses actually did write what they saw and heard.

I have absolutely no doubt that the words we have today are the unchanged words of the Qur'an.

So that means the Qur'an is either:

The Ravings of a mad man.
Misleadings by Shaytan

or the True words of Allah(swt)

i believe most people have ruled out the possability that Muhammad(PBUH) was a mad man, although that belief does persist among some people, who are not familiar with the eye witness accounts of Muhammad(PBUH) as detailed in the Sunnah.

Now I believe the consideration that the words could have been misleading teachings by Shaytan, to be a very Valid question, to be examined by every potential revert to Islam. Islam, does encourage scrutiny of the words. Questioning is not only permitted it is demanded. A Muslim is essentially ordered to question, read and learn. This is a question every revert has faced and has had to independently investigate and come to no other conclusion that the Qur'an is the word of Allah(swt) and not a false teaching coming from Shaytan.

I doubt very much that many reverts woke up one morning and said "I believe I will revert to Islam" Reverts fight to become reverts. The hardest point is to come to the self knowledge that all prior teachings were false. It is not easy to just simply give up past beliefs and immediatly begin living a whole new life. Unless the person honestly recognizes that their past beliefs were merely stepping stones on the path that brought them to Islam. Christian reverts do not give up any love of Christ(as) nor cease to love God(swt). They come to the knowledge that Islam Fulfills them and while they learned of Christ(as) through Christianity, it is in Islam they learn to truly love Isa(as). the love of Jesus(as) increases when a Christian embraces Islam. Only now they know what genuine love is and they know how to truly be servents of Allah(swt) alone.

Many reverts have become reverts because they disbelieved the teachings of the Qur'an and they came to "save" Muslims from their errors. These people discovered that the Qur'an was the truth and that they were the ones who needed to be saved. In my experience and of people I have met, I believe that strong, true Christians, become strong true Muslims. Their heart is in the right place. They come to spread truth as they believe it and they have strong love for Allah(swt) Those become the very tools needed to accept the truth of Islam and for them to accept acknowledging they are Muslim. Because of their fierce love for Allah(swt) they soon recognize that Islam is the strongest expression of love for Allah(swt) humanly possible.

 

[Fr0mHim]

(sorry guys let me jump in here. it might take me awhile to understand exactly what you are talking about)

But, man I believe in the resurrection because personally I love the idea that a God came down in human flesh and died to become my Lord and Savior. telling me that He is willing to deal with all my mess ups and bad mistakes and not just with the right stuff.
this prolly doesn't even belong here... like I said it might take me awhile to get aquainted with what you guys are talking about..

but, you ever been through a lot like chronic depression and you go to someone about it (one person solemly) and they well handle with you for a while and after a while its like they pray that prayer man Lord send down the 12 legions of angels cause I can't die for this person?

 

[Fr0mHim]

wanted to add this:


to me its truth not because of what someone said about it in a 2000 year old book though I can give restate scripture that gives prophesy of someone dieing to save someone else but its not a quote but its a prophesy through action through more of an event. its truth to me because everything in this world testifies of him well I wont use the word everything... but some events testify of him... or could... like a person being able to SAVE someone else by dieing(metiphorically or actually) or someone willing to give up(agian either dieing for real or dieing mentally) their time to spend with someone who needs it. and to me thats what God did... now granted honestly sometimes myself thinks of worldly things and the thought of God coming down to save me isn't satifying to me. but hey thats just me...

 

[Woodrow]

(sorry guys let me jump in here. it might take me awhile to understand exactly what you are talking about)

But, man I believe in the resurrection because personally I love the idea that a God came down in human flesh and died to become my Lord and Savior. telling me that He is willing to deal with all my mess ups and bad mistakes and not just with the right stuff.
this prolly doesn't even belong here... like I said it might take me awhile to get aquainted with what you guys are talking about..

but, you ever been through a lot like chronic depression and you go to someone about it (one person solemly) and they well handle with you for a while and after a while its like they pray that prayer man Lord send down the 12 legions of angels cause I can't die for this person?

Greetings and welcome to the forum. Please take your time and read all of this thread.

There are considerable differences between Muslim and Christian beliefs. I am certain you will have differences of opinion as to what we believe. but, please read and if you can not understand why we believe as we do, become aware of what it is we believe and not the misguiding of the public media.